How are they so good at manipulating?

[monique94550]

My xNH is unbelievably good at manipulating.  He deserves an award.  This was supposed to be my weekend with my son (DS).  Thursday night DS told me one of the scout patrols planned to go play paintball on Saturday, and that xNH was going with him.  But then later Thursday night DS told me it was moved to next week, and DS was okay with that, because he's been crazy busy with school, band, boy scouts, etc., and he really, really just wanted to have some downtime this weekend.  (As it was, a friend of his was celebrating his birthday Saturday night, which would mean dinner out with the friend and his mom and other boys, and then swimming, and then a sleepover.  And then DS had a 2.5 hr boy scout meeting scheduled for Sunday afternoon.)  Then xNH texted me to tell me he was taking DS to play paintball with the scouts Saturday.  I texted him back to tell him DS just told me it was moved to next week.  When I went to tuck DS into bed Thursday night, he was texting, and I told him he needed to put his phone away.  He said he was texting xNH about something (I forget what, but it didn't ring true).

Early Friday morning xNH texts me to tell me that, yes, the assistant scoutmaster's son could not go to paintball, and so the assistant scoutmaster was not going, but there were other boys that wanted to go on Saturday, and if DS didn't go, then xNH wouldn't go, so none of the other boys could go (because xNH was only adult).  So I agreed to let DS go.

When DS came home after paintball, he was a bit surly and aggressive (duh, go figure).  Usually DS is kind and considerate, even though he's 14. He told me xNH got him an iPhone 4, but he can't set it up until Tuesday, because DS will be with me Sunday, then has school and church youth group Monday night.  I told DS I didn't want him to have to wait until Tuesday, because he had been SO EXCITED about that iPhone, so he could go over to xNH's house Sunday to set up iPhone.  I emailed xNH and told him DS could come over Sunday to set up iPhone, and then I texted xNH and asked him to check his email (because otherwise he denies seeing emails, or just ignores them).  DS called xNH to confirm, and the only part of conversation I heard was DS telling xNH he'd be over Sunday around 10:30 a.m.

Sunday morning (this morning) I picked up DS at his friend's house and drove him to xNH's house.  On the way, DS said they're going to be doing yardwork.  I said, "What?  You're supposed to be setting up your new iPhone."  DS said, "No, we're doing yardwork.  If we have time, we'll do the phone.  But that's okay, I want to do yardwork."  I said, "The only reason I agreed for you to be at your dad's today was to set up your iPhone, not do yardwork."  And DS said, "But it's my responsibility to do yardwork."  DS also said he needs to spend time with xNH because he hasn't seen him very much (which is baloney, because they just went on a campout together last weekend, and DS was at xNH's house Sunday-Wednesday night this past week).  DS kept repeating, "I just need to spend more time with xNH."  DS has asked me not to cause problems with xNH, because when I do, life is harder for him with xNH and especially xNH's NGF, who lives with him and has for the last 9 years, so from here on I will refer to her as NW (is that correct for "Narcissistic Wife"?).

We pulled up to xNH's house, and xNH and NW were unloading yard supplies from xNH's vehicle.  I parked on street behind another car, because I want NC as much as possible.  Then I said, "OK, I won't cause a problem with yardwork.  Is your boy scout uniform clean?  You'll need it for your scout meeting today."  DS said, "No, it's not clean."  I said, "OK, go get it, and I'll wash it so it'll be ready for the meeting."  (Meeting was scheduled for 3:30 p.m.  DS is the senior patrol leader, and so has leadership responsibilities.)

(Back story:  xNH used to be boy scout troop "golden boy," because he was so charming and told everyone how much he knew about scouting and how he was so eager to be part of the troop leadership.  But, he couldn't keep up the ruse after the first year or so, so now scoutmaster is pretty disgusted with xNH's lies and shortcomings, plus scoutmaster knows xNH and NW sit in local tavern and get drunk and backstab scoutmaster, and me, fairly regularly.  Scoutmaster's son is DS's best friend, and Scoutmaster's wife is a good friend of mine.  Scoutmaster's son won't go to xNH's house anymore because NW is such a b*tch to him when he's there, and I just found that out Friday night.  Scoutmaster's wife told me it is a joke with them how often DS is on restriction/grounded because of making NW mad.  Scoutmaster and his wife don't contact xNH directly anymore when they need DS to do something, because somehow it always ends up with DS getting punished by xNH and NW.)

DS walked up to house, and I waited.  Then DS came back emptyhanded and said, "They are going to wash my uniform, so you don't have to worry about it."  I said, "OK."  He said, "They are going to take me to scout meeting."  I said, "But I have to go to scout meeting anyway."  DS said, "Well, they are going to take me."  Then I said, "Are you coming back to my place after the meeting?", and DS said, "Uh, no, I think I'm spending the night here."  At this point I was almost speechless.  This is my weekend.  What is going on?  So I said, "DS, I don't understand what's going on."  And he said, "Mom, I don't understand what's going on either."  And he looked like he was in pain.  So I let it go and told him I loved him and then I drove away.

I drove to scoutmaster's house to meet with wife about some membership issues.  Scoutmaster told me he just called DS and talked with him about plans for the meeting, and they are all set for the day.

At 3:40 p.m. I get a text from xNH that DS is sick and sleeping ("The food he ate at party last night got to him.")  xNH said he called scoutmaster and told him DS is sick and wouldn't be at meeting.  I have since texted DS twice to see how he is, but have gotten no response.

I wrote email to scoutmaster and wife to get their thoughts, and wife thinks xNH and NW had other plans with DS today, so they made up story about DS being sick, and xNH called scoutmaster, because DS didn't want to (boys are supposed to call scoutmaster when they can't make a meeting, not parents).  Scoutmaster wife said, "Let it sit.  The truth will come out."

So I've not had my son with me all weekend, and it seems that he's been manipulated by xNH to not go to scout meeting.  xNH was already responsible for DS missing first scout meeting of year, plus, on campout last weekend, xNH went with troop, but then took DS and hiked away to a different campsite, and the two of them camped alone away from the troop.

DS is senior patrol leader and so is not meeting his responsibilities, because of xNH.

I feel so powerless.  I'm trying to be neutral.  I'm trying to quit fighting so xNH doesn't have anything to fight with me about, so he will lose interest.  It's very hard, though, to get through this.  I think xNH is baiting me to get me to engage.  I balled the fear and the anger and the wanting to be in control feelings up in my stomach and felt them very strong, then released them to the universe, and I felt better.  And I still feel better.  I realized I was completely projecting very negative stuff and worrying about things I have no control over.  I went to an AA meeting, and the topic was, "One day at a time," which was fantastic.  I sat and listened to people share about what they're going through and working to get through one day at a time, and not drink, and the pain in the room was palpable.  These people are hurting so much with unemployment, financial disasters, old age and associated illnesses, mothers with Alzheimers, ex-spouses who were in recovery who started drinking again and are going to lose their jobs and so won't be paying child support, etc., etc.  It reminded me of the idea that, if we were to all put our problems in a bucket and could choose to take another person's problems or our own back, we wouldn't want to take anybody else's.  We would just take ours back, because they wouldn't seem so bad.  The meeting was uplifting, though, because even though these people have so many problems, the focus was on the solution to living with them one day at a time, with faith, by reaching out and sharing, and being grateful because right here, right now everything's okay, and they did not have to drink!

But I just continue to be astonished at how manipulative and sneaky my damm xNH can be.  Getting other boys hyped up about going to paintball, so if I said "No," then it's my fault that all the other boys didn't get to go.  And then the deal with them not being able to set up the iPhone because DS was with me, so DS would have a resentment about spending time with me.  Then somehow DS ends up spending the entire day and night with xNH instead of me, doing yardwork, and not going to scouts, again.  Sometimes I feel like I live in one of those carnival funhouses with the crazy mirrors.  And just so you remember, this isn't my major N.  My xNH isn't the big bad wolf N who I'm struggling to stay away from, while at the same time I'm deathly afraid he'll come after me and hurt me.  It's not a funhouse, it's a nuthouse.

Look, sorry for the extra long post.  If you read the whole thing, you get a huge gold star for patience!

Monique

[eyes_up]

" How are they so good at manipulating? "
 ~ monique

Monique, with out even reading your post (I will return to read) I can answer this question. One of the main reasons manipulators are good at manipulating is because that is their way of functioning and surviving.

If you can understand all the information that narcissists do not come in contact with ... especially empathy which is an emotional response and connection to other peoples emotional experience ... it is easy to see that what they do have contact with is the use of control and power.

Being able to empathize is a power. But at the same time it takes ones attention. A narcissist doesn't ever make contact with that form of communication or experience so there is a huge lot of energy that can be used for other stuff such as manipulation. Manipulation doesn't affect a narcissist like it would a empathetic person.

In simple terms I could say it like this. A narcissist has nothing better to do but manipulate because there is nothing else presented in their awareness. There is only manipulating objects not a relationship with objects or the relationship a narcissist has with others and I would even say with them selves is manipulation. There is no other medium of knowing and comprehending.

I hope this helps ... this is a pathology and it not a person operating with all senses. Kind of like asking how a blind person can hear so well... they hear better because one of their senses is missing. In a narcissists case there is more than one sense missing so in order to function every things is concentrated on manipulating object. Awareness includes remorse for actions in terms of awareness of other people as human. They do not experience themselves in a whole manner nor do they experience others in a whole manner. Narcissist manipulate others because essentially they are manipulations. All the disguises are manipulations ... a true self is not present so no one else is a self either. It takes a self to know a self.

eyes

[monique94550]

Eyes, I kind of get what you're saying at a certain level, but I don't get it yet at the depth that you get it.  To be honest, at this point in my recovery, sometimes the more intellectual posts are hard for me to digest.  I get a headache.     That's not to say that they are without merit, at all!  Those of you who have been around this forum a long time obviously know your stuff, and I value your knowledge and input.  Hopefully I'll get to the point where I can get it at the level you get it.

I do see that the xNH can be much more effective at manipulation because he doesn't have the part of the normal person's psyche (guilt? compassion? empathy?  all of the above?) that handicaps the normal person's ability to manipulate as well.  He's unfettered.  I also get that he's been doing it a long, long time, so he's very good at it for that reason.  That's about as far as I can comprehend right now.   

That said, what should I do at this point to minimize damage to my son and myself?

Thank you so much for hanging out on this forum and helping me and the other newcomers.

Monique

[eyes_up]

Monique,

I will read your post tomorrow when I am in a better reading way... I will try to assist you with your question.

"that handicaps the normal person's ability to manipulate as well." ~ monique


I would not agree that one is handicapped in terms of manipulating just because they are able to experience empathy.

From my experience I know how to manipulate people. The question is ... do I have a reason to manipulate. The handicapped person manipulates. The healthy person see others other vulnerabilities and experiences their own. There fore manipulation is not a goal or a desire but it doesn't disable one from being able to manipulate.

Working with the public and knowing various personalities as well as my own it is something to know how to interact with different people. We all do it. We know what is pleasing to a particular person and we desire to go with the pleasing stuff. That is a form of manipulation. But it is manipulating a situation to create connection not threat and harm.

How to deal with a manipulator... how to deal with a narcissist... well there are lots of ways to learn to work. One is really strong boundaries. Very firm NO's and very strong lines. This requires personal power. Again I will be back tomorrow and in the mean time others will reply.

eyes

[monique94550]

Eyes, I guess I mean that the N doesn't have those qualities, e.g., empathy, that handicap the normal person's ability to manipulate for completely selfish reasons.  If one feels empathy, one is held back from purposely causing harm through self-serving manipulation, because of the natural, negative consequences of guilt and shame that result.

If I try to run a 100-meter dash full out and I know I won't experience any physical injury, I'm going to do a lot better than the person who is worried about pulling a hamstring.  Does that make sense?

N's also seem to have a lack of fear of being caught, maybe because t  hey are so good at it?  And then does that lack of fear play into law of attraction, so they end up not getting caught?  Like the seemingly crazy military officer who strides fearlessly across the battlefield and is never once even grazed by a bullet?

That's all for now.  It's bedtime.  I'm going through a phase where I can't get off this forum at a decent hour!

Monique     

[NewWings4MeNow]

Monique,

N/Ps use lying as a tool, and don't attach any moral foundation to it one way or the other.  They keep their eye very much on the ball to achieve their objective.  They're fine with lying by omission, sharing only tidbits of information that keep directing attention toward what they want, but not nearly providing the whole picture/story or letting on as to whomever else is involved in the "scene" ... that they perceive themselves as directing ... or like they're the puppeteers moving the players around on the stage, or the gamesmen moving the pieces around on the board.

The bottom line is that it's a form of sabotage along the abuser's line of "He wants you to fail."  It's about fulfilling his immediate needs without investing in the longer-term needs of anyone outside his annointed NS circle.

In your case this past week, xNH's objective may have been to monopolize DS's time and work on him psychologically about his obligation, and the importance of spending as much time with them as possible.  *OR* he may be being pressured by NW's exertion of her authority with her opinion and desires.  If your DS tells you he doesn't know what's going on either, and he's showing you his pain, that's the closest kernel of the real story.  

N/P has no qualms whatsoever about manipulating a triangulated third person (in your case, DS), even to the extent of having them miss out on their own life's experiences (his boy scout responsibilities) and setting up an illness (or some kind of physical withholding) excuse as part of a ring of lies that are transparent to those at schools who've dealt with N/P parents before.  

- XNH would keep d, 6, out late on a Sunday night (visiting his family a plane ride away) and she'd show up late to school on Mondays, which her teacher noticed as negligent and unnecessary.
- He'd drop her off to me, at 6 and just 8 minutes away, without her backpack, and he refused to go back to his house and get it actually saying, "Too bad.  I'm not going to take an hour out of my day to go back and get it; she'll just have to do without."  
- D was invited by Johns Hopkins for years in a row to be in their Talented Youth programs, but XNH didn't feel like paying for it.
- He dropped her off on Halloween evening right at trick-or-treating time, without the costume I'd gotten for her and which she'd worn to his house to show him.
- XNH dropped d off to me on Cotillion nights without shoes, a dress, gloves, anything, and I had an hour to outfit her.
- D's fifth grade went on a D.C. class trip.  XNH would pay for her ticket but not mine.  He didn't go and I couldn't afford to go.  She was the only child in her grade unaccompanied by a parent, had to be supervised by a militaristic mom who didn't like her, and has awful memories of her treatment that week.  
- Several years ago he refused to let her take her own skis along when I took her on a Christmas winter holiday trip, so I had to pay for her to to rent equipment -- for XNH's favorite sport.
- Last year she was in middle school, and I joined her for spring open house; she said XNH told her he'd paid for two dinners.  We waited on line; there were no dinners paid for.
These examples go on, and on, and on.  

Thinking ahead five steps, which N/P does, is there an upcoming holiday or demand xNH will make of you, for which he's now starting a build-up?  This would be XNH's way.

I'm very sorry for your DS.  Time does march on and our kids grow up in body, mind and spirit.  I started educating d about N/Ps, and we established a home rule about "living in truth and fact", when she was old enough to understand right from wrong, blue sky from purple sky.  D eventually began to call a spade a spade for herself and could tell when she was being BSd by XNH directly herself.  When the two of them started to go at it head-to-head, the terms of the engagement began to change, slowly and with her grieving the loss, but it's happened and continues as she's taken the reins of negotiating whether/how their R will continue.

You know which direction is straight to steer your ship.  Keep hold of that rudder and show DS what truth and fact are.  If he's being made into a pawn, he deserves to know.  (This is IMO -- only you know your situation and what's appropriate.)  More than ever, a father's behaviors and treatments imprint on a son impacting whether he'll become a good or an abusive man.  Is xNH's behavior in keeping with the promises and character required of scouting?  Not nearly.  DS has the right to make this distinction for himself, and read it for what it is.  

If DS has shared his confusion and pain with you, give him a quiet opening to feel safe and see if he'll convey more.  Such sudden change in demands on parenting time usually find coercion behind the curtain ....

I'm sending you all my strength and support tonight, to trust that you've taught DS well and he'll find a way to apply what he's learning,

NewWings4MeNow

[eyes_up]

Monique... The only difference in what I am saying about manipuations is in the use of words. I do not see empathy as a dysfunction or disability but rather it curtails the use of manipulations due to  AWARENESS.

Empathy is awareness . We can still serve our selves with the ability to empathize.

One question that will come up sooner or later is how do I serve myself with out feeling guilty or ashamed ? ~  Though It might not be the right time to speak about it as of yet .

I will say this, once I caught on to the manipulations of a narcissist ... I felt no shame remorse nor guilt in manipulating the narcissist. I did plenty of lying in order to protect myself and I felt I needed that boundary for those conditions.

eyes

[betterdays]

When you ask what you can do to minimize the damage, all I have found that works is to take control.  If DS is with N for the weekend, make sure the scoutmaster has N's phone number and request that he be called if not there on time.  I got D a cell phone so she could text or call when something went wrong, although we were not even separated at that point. She knew N was not reliable to get her to her commitments, or to make sure she was fed and properly clothed, just like NewWings described in her situation.  In short, close communication and informing activities leaders that you have a problem parent driving the child raises awareness.  When the child expresses how upset he is, hand him a journal and suggest it might help to write about it. Then you have a written record of what happened, not from you.  It might help to renegotiate visitation.

Whatever you do will have to be to help DS, since nothing really will change an N.  It is useful to realize that many books dealing with N's state that they hate children.  STBXNH began to show his true colors when I became pregnant, and has been the disappointment of a lifetime ever since.

[NewWings4MeNow]

Monique,

I agree with Better's comments and suggestions, and share XNH's statement to me face-to-face just last spring:  "When she turns 14 I don't care where she lives."

Going back through my notes XNH actually stated that our marriage was bad for 9/11 years which, by his timeframe, would have started back at the time I first began infertility treatment *and* stopped working/bringing in money to be a SAHW/SAHM.  With true colors like that, why he ever married me at all is a mystery.

Anyway, (1) provide separate communicating capability, (2) assume unreliability, (3) report problem parenting and have them deal with calling him out directly and hold him accountable directly for what he's actually responsible for as a parent (so third parties can see for themselves -- it adds up and opinions travel).

As to lying as part of a survivor's coping arsenal, it's a very personal thing.  I considered it early on, to play at XNH's level step by step, and decided it would eat me from the inside if I compromised my own integrity to his severe extent.  Likely this choice has hurt me, but I can rest with it.  My method has been to use NC and muteness consciously to withhold conversational/life details and protect privacy/separateness; this has worked, generally, very well and d has also honored it.

NewWings4MeNow

[monique94550]

Thanks NewWings, eyes and betterdays~

From what I see, my DS is a people-pleaser.  He's always trying to smooth things out and say what he thinks people want to hear.  I worry that he has weak boundary function (wonder who he got that from?  LOL).  He buckles under xNH's pressure.  DS wants so much to please xNH.  DS sees NW as the problem and wishes xNH would stand up to her.

xNH's 2nd wife (I was #1) physically abused DS when he was 18 months old.  The police and CPS could not prove that 2nd wife abused him, but in their final reports they stated strongly that she was the one who most likely inflicted the injuries to him, and so xNH and 2nd wife had only supervised visitation.  At that point, xNH disappeared from our lives for five years (and didn't pay any court-ordered child support).  When DS was 6, he wanted to send xNH a Father's Day card.  We did, and xNH emailed a response saying he and 2nd wife were divorced, and he wanted to re-establish a father-son relationship.  It turns out 2nd wife cheated on him and left him.

xNH was on best behavior for next three years.  I never pressed xNH to pay child support, because I was trying to make sure my motives were about what was best for DS and not about money.  When DS was about 7, xNH decided to start sending $300 a month (when DS was 1 year old, the court had ordered him to pay $1000/month).

When DS was 9, I thought it would be best for him to be near his dad, so we moved across the country to live in the same town as xNH.  Coincidentally, that very month, the court that originally ordered the $1000/month child support filed a judgment against xNH for $89,000 in back child support.  I didn't find out about it at first, because my copy was sent to a very old address, and it never got to me.  But xNH and NW got it.  Boy did the N behavior explode!  He sued me for custody, and they worked me over.  I didn't have any financial resources.  xNH makes well over 6 figures.  In the end, I agreed to give xNH primary custody and negotiated a settlement whereby the child support I had to pay for the next 9 years would go against the amount xNH owed me, so it was a wash.  I was emotionally devastated and briefly suicidal and checked myself into a psychiatric facility for 3 days (but then got the he11 out!).

So there is precedent for xNH to abandon DS, and DS knows it.  DS doesn't want to be abandoned.  Any change to custody resulting in my having primary custody would immediately result in xNH owing me a large sum of money, so he's dam*ed if he's going to let that happen.

I'm a terrible liar and a terrible chess player.  I feel clueless about putting myself in xNH and NW's shoes to figure out what is going on in their minds.  Up until the last few months, I had been agreeing to everything and making nice with xNH (and NW to the extent she would let me) just for the sake of keeping the peace.  But when the big bad wolf N helped me to discover the world of the narcissist, and I figured out that xNH is one, too, I started setting boundaries with xNH and NW, thus setting into motion this latest flare-up of overwhelmingly offensive N behavior.  And DS is begging me to not cause any trouble.  He just wants peace.  He doesn't want xNH to abandon him again.

So I don't think DS is not going to stand up to xNH anytime soon.  And as much as he wants to stand up to NW, he won't do that either, because he knows if NW wants to D&D DS, then xNH will join her.  I don't think NW will do that, though, because there's the issue of the money.  She doesn't want to see xNH writing me a big check anytime soon.

Before all this N stuff came up, I thought I had made the best overall decision for DS.  He needed to have his father in his life.  Now, I'm not so sure.

I've taught DS the best I can about integrity, and living according to spiritual principles, and relying on his Higher Power for help and comfort.  He's a young man now, and a good kid.  I can't see myself becoming a lying manipulator.  I don't think I'd be very good at it anyhow.  But who knows?

Thanks for listening.  It's 4:15 a.m., and I can't sleep, so I'm glad to have this outlet.

Monique

[Jacintae]

Hi Monique

Don't be sorry for such a 'long post'!!. I found it so interesting, well written and you conveyed the whole situation really well. And I found your post very helpful and it set me thinking about things I had not really thought about before.

Yes, your XNH bears the hallmarks of a huge manipulator. I started to feel 'yuk' as soon as you mentioned him getting your son the iphone. Yes, manipulate the boy with toys and then use it as an excuse to get him over to 'set it up'. XNH laid out his plans pretty carefully to upset the whole weekend. He was the puppet master pulling the strings.

But Monique, I think you are a wonderful mother. I don't have kids but I don't know if I could be as level headed and patient as you are around this situation. Well done to you.  

Your post reminded me of something that I never really thought about much. The N in my life had two teenagers. I met his boy of about 17 years old a good few times. I thought him a lovely, charming, funny, very handsome young man. He was extremely musically talented and I have seen him play on TV a few times. I think I was a little in awe of him but he was a boy that any parent would be proud of. The N was always on about how much effort he had put into the boy while he was growing up and all the sacrifices he had made to get the boy into a really expensive private music school. I used to think that no matter how bad the N was - at least he had a redeeming feature in that he had such a lovely, well balanced son.

On one of the last times I met the N - his son was there too. N was in bad humour that evening and went off for a while ( no doubt to make a phone call to another woman) and the boy and I talked. He talked non stop about his Mum ( who has been remarried happily now for over ten years) and said how much he owed her for all the support she and his step Dad had given him to get him to his music college. He said she worked long hours to save the fees for his music college and that one day he would definitely repay her.
This was just idle conversation and I didn't really think that much about it.( I knew nothing about Nism at the time) When I read your post here I just suddenly remembered this.

Monique - Keep at it, keep patient, keep strong. Your son is not stupid - I am sure he can see exactly what's going on. Or if he can't now - he soon will.  

Love
Jac xx

[Jacintae]

I've taught DS the best I can about integrity, and living according to spiritual principles, and relying on his Higher Power for help and comfort.  He's a young man now, and a good kid.  I can't see myself becoming a lying manipulator.  I don't think I'd be very good at it anyhow.  But who knows?

Thanks for listening.  It's 4:15 a.m., and I can't sleep, so I'm glad to have this outlet.

Monique

Hi again Monique,
I’m sorry but we must just have about posted together.  I know there is a little warning on this board that shows ‘that another post has been posted etc’ but I missed it. I was still looking at your earlier post when I replied.

So it’s 4.15pm where you are. Lucky you – some sleeping time left. It 10.06 am here in London and eek it’s a Monday morning. 

Monique – I have read your post. I don’t have children so what do I know?? But I know one thing about son. No matter what ups and downs he has had, he has a strong, loving mother who cares very deeply for him. You had battles in your own life which you fought through and came out on top. You live a life of integrity and you have taken action to do everything you can to help your son. For me that is the real acid test. No matter what any parent says or advices or cajoles or placates a child, it seems to me that children really learn from how a parent is actually living – what a parent is actually doing. Actions do speak louder than words!!.

All children have tough times and go through periods of confusion. That is part of growing up. What all children do not have, and the bit that makes your boy really lucky is that he has a strong, courageous Mother who is willing to move mountains to help him. He will come through. 

Love
Jac xx

[monique94550]

Jac, thanks so much for your posts.  I'm grateful for your kind words and support!   

I work very hard to not lose my temper and scream obscenities about xNH in front of not only DS but also the entire world!!!!  Forgiving the xNH and NW is a constant process (forgiveness doesn't mean I approve of their behavior, but I have to keep the poison of resentment out of my system).

Love, Monique

[eyes_up]

Hi Monique, I finally read your post. Thank you for patience. I know I was writing more before about the fact that narcs manipulate.

It is plain to see that your son ... because he is young and already been processed by the XNH that he is unable to go through with his voice. He is essentially voiceless and gets pushed and pulled in any direction the N desires.

For example he say something to the tune of... Don't get upset mom it only makes things harder for me. So what your son is unable to do is stand up himself , which by the way is understandable, and say...if we are not going to be doing my iphone then I do not need to visit, this is moms week end and I want to see her not do yard work and then cancel.

Some where along the line no one is asserting boundaries. You sound like you WANT to assert boundaries but your son says... do do anything or it will be harder on me. This is how you and son are being manipulated. Through abuse of your son.

Basically your son is being used for supply and is complying in order to get the cell phone working. You originally asked how a N can be so good at manipulating and my other answer is because the N has a drive to create situation that give him the opportunity to control other people. With out that need to control other but rather the desire to get along with others ... manipulating people and situations against every ones needs would ot be happening. In other words it is all about controlling others. What is missing is your son sticking with boundaries which includes not allowing the narc tactics to work. He has to feel his rights to say... you do not treat me this way and have a number to call when things are not working for him... instead he just complies so that things are not hard for him. I am sure they are difficult when the narc doesn't get his way. But this is something your son has to see and deal with other wise every one is tip toeing.

My idea or opinion is that you and your son have to get together on this. Your son needs to know that he sticks to the structure of who sees who on what week end. If the narc gives a phone then OK fine... he can do that on the xnH week end of visitation. Other wise the narc will use the phone to manipulate the child and then you.

It would be better for your child to stick with the structure for the long run. Other wise the xnH will keep throwing in carrots (iphone) and control peoples attention .

Hind sight says that you and son could have gone to the apple store and gotten help at setting the phone up. The point here is ... when this happens again... figure out any way possible to take care of it yourself with out further involvement with xnH. Just a suggestion.

Knowing that the xnH will use objects to control your sons attention means that you can take notice of this form of manipulation and further you understanding of how to step out of the drama.

It will be in your power to understand how to manipulate these situation when they arise. Like I said ... I learned how I had to manipulate the narcissist so that I kept my space. In fact I wouldn't even call it a manipulation but a boundary. For example. I might lie about something because in fact I didn't owe an explanation for my choice. My choice is non negotiable but the narc will turn it into a negotiation. As if there is room for the narcs plan. So in order to not even go through explanation I either wouldn't state any information that would ultimately be used to corrupt my boundary. If this doesn't make sense I can further explain.

I have heard it said before here on WoN... that if you can do it yourself and not involve the narcissist ... go that direction. If son needs something and it is your week end first ask... how can I do this with my son and erase the need of his Narc father. it isn't even healthy for kids to be pulled through the narc filter. They learn very unhealthy coping strategies.

Peace,

eyes_up

[RB22]

Monique,

I have children.. 4 D's.. 19yo twins, 17 and 15 and like your son, my D's split time between XN and myself.

My X and his wife occasionally (now) will push the limits of visitation... getting the girls to visit them... because they are going to go shopping... etc. 

I finally got wise, and would tell the girls ok you can go with your dad this weekend.. I will switch this weekend for next weekend.   The girls thought it reasonable and dad said no its not reasonable, I want both weekends... kids told him that was NOT fair... in his mind it was fair.. what came out of that conversation was the fact that he lived 2 hours away and only saw the kids every other weekend. and he missed all that time with them and wanted to make it up to them...(girls thought it was reasonable and brought the statement to me)  I reminded them that HE CHOSE to move in with NW, when he had a perfectly good place to live with his parents (whom my kids would love to be with.. so they couldn't understand him wanting to leave) only an hour away... and he saw them more when he lived with gramma and poppy... and besides weren't they always complaining that he worked next door to the middle school and never visited them for lunch like the other dads did.  etc... etc... etc... 

You can see where this is going...

I had/have to help my kids have their voice with their dad... he tries to explain a lot of things away... but the truth is that he only makes an effort when he knows he can get mileage from the supply.   THEY know that.... they just Don't want to be right. it hurts to much to be right.   

I have NC with my X... and he lives 8 miles away.  But I have on occasion such as you coming by to pick up your son to take to the meeting..I would have told X that since I have to go to the meeting... I can save you(X) a trip and I'll pick him up at 3... then leave no room for him to say anything and drive away.  In my case I try to say it when NW is not around, X has to ask her permission before he can answer and besides I didn't ask a question... (which gives him room to refuse)  I just told him I would be saving him some time/money for gas/etc.. and picking up a kid.   

I find if I word things to make it easier on X, he tends to go along. 

Most times I do what makes life easier on my kids.... within limits.   And my kids know that... we talk about it... and there are times WE make a decision that I have to take the heat for them. and that's ok... I can handle it. Better X/NW be mad at me... and ranting and raving than mad and emotionally abusive to the kids.

I go out of my way to make sure my kids go to church every sunday... I pick them up from X's house, when they are there.  Noone wakes up before 11 at that house.. we are back by then, so not missed.

I have been known to pick up a kid to take to a practice, game, etc... from his house... because it is important to me that the kid feels like they belong to this team.. it isn't as important to X... because any team is NOT HIS TEAM.   Kids get picked up from school by me when they are sick...and brought to my home.. he can get pick them up from me. The kid calls me, I go.

I want them to know they can count on me... and they do. 

as recently as last year X texted me that on the weeks he had D and she had a soccer game, I should not attend.  Umm... no.  When I had my kids, I expected to be a full time parent... I am not giving up my job, because he fired me as his wife.

I didn't answer.. I just keep showing up to each game I can make...with cowbells.

It helps me that my middle kid drives.. she has a car available to her when she is at my house and one available to her when she is at his house.. so the kids are pretty independent at this point. 

It also helps to sit your son down and find a better way to handle things like this in the future.  It was clear to me that he didn't want to go and do yardwork... but wanted his phone activated.  Things like this are going to keep coming up... UNTIL your son says... I can wait till tuesday when I see you next.  and leave it at that.

In my state, (Fl)  I think the age of decision is 14.  Your son can actually have a voice in his visitation.  A judge will listen to a 14 yo.   I know it helped my kids to know that... and they have used it on both of us at least one point.  I know it scares my X into submission every so often...  I am not so scared by it.

Talk to your son... he knows he is being manipulated, he doesn't like it... but it might help him if you (or another adult) can help him see another way to handle things so he doesn't end up in these situations.... sometimes they really can be diffused. 

Hugs, it isn't easy parenting with a n... but at least you can point out to your son... the way NOT to parent your future grandchildren.

More hugs,

RB

[monique94550]

Thanks eyes.

I appreciate your guidance regarding my son, and I need to process it.  I do know I need to stick to our visitation schedule and not make anymore compromises like I did this weekend.

I understand what you say about lying to protect your boundaries.  I just did that, in fact.  Since I realized our parent coordinator (who WAS also my personal therapist) has no understanding about NPD and doesn't believe xNH is NPD, and since we aren't under a court order to see the parent coordinator at this time, I decided I'm no longer going to participate in counseling with the xNH with this particular parent coordinator.

I wrote xNH an email Saturday telling him I didn't have anything to discuss with the parent coordinator, and that I wanted to cancel our next appointment (set for 9/22).  xNH wrote me back this morning and said, "It's good we don't have anything to discuss.  I still think we should go, since the last meeting was a little rough.  Maybe we can get a lessons learned from him."  It's always that way.  He controls and overrides my wishes.  This time I didn't accept it.  I wrote him back and said, "I don't have anything to discuss with you, so I won't be at the appointment on 9/22/10," and I cc'd the parent coordinator.  No negotiating.

Thanks so much.

Monique

[NewWings4MeNow]

Monique,

Kids hate being manipulated when they know it's happening, especially if they know someone else is being hurt in the process.

Have you had the "you fear abandonment" ("... but guess what, you're becoming a man and this is the way the world is ... your father won't completely abandon you but he is a selfish a$$") conversation straight-up with your DS?

Wow.  Just read your last post about saying no to the coordinator meeting.  GOOD FOR YOU.  xNH's comment "It's good we don't have anything to discuss.  I still think we should go, since the last meeting was a little rough.  Maybe we can get a lessons learned from him" was CLASSIC, classic XNH too:  Bottom line was that he wanted to lay eyes on me.  He wanted to be in the same room with me and get his NewWings fix.  He wanted to mix it up with me in front of a third party who'd keep score, so he could show "wins".  And BTW, there is no "we" in your R (especially when xNHs are married again) -- this is classically part of their emotionally-driven control attempts.  YOU are too busy getting your own lessons learned as a separate person unrelated to xNH.  He's good, real smooth; this can prevent you from moving on.  Actually, xNH tries to control and override your wishes, but in this case it's emotional/psychological only.  That's one area to distinguish in your head.  XNH was a master at this with me for years; he knew he had the upper hand because he'd D'd me and I was still emotionally involved with him when he was already long gone from the m.

Monique, I'm going to suggest that it may be time for you to be more forceful with DS, and tell him he has no Voice and put it to him that a man MUST have Voice and use it, with every human on the planet -- especially to separate/distinguish himself from his parents.  Some kind of conversation that goes, "DS, what do YOU want?  No, don't think, don't try to consider everybody else's hurts.  You've been manipulated for a long time and it's gonna stop here.  What do YOU want, in your heart-of-hearts?"  Don't let go of this line of questioning until he answers you.

Talking about that abandonment fear would be really important for you and DS.  You could ask him, "Do you not want to be abandoned by someone who (treats you like XYZ)?"  "Is it that you can say you have a father in your life?"  "If it was worth it to you to move this close to your father, how/why has it been worth it and are you really seeing the price that has to be paid?"  

You have the right to tell DS, "Here's the arrangement.  It's formally filed in court.  We keep to the arrangement or we go back to court.  If you want to go back to court to change it, what do you want it to now be?"  (Which goes back to "What about this is and is not working for you?  Let's handle it.")

You have the opportunity to work with DS now on a plan to take the two of you forward until he graduates HS.  You have the opportunity to use these moments as teaching tools about character:  Discuss with him how one kind of man keeps to agreements, promises, contracts, and another kind of man proceeds to dishonor words he's already spoken and renegotiate everything as he goes along, assuming all around him will just change with the wind every time he chooses to change its direction.  

This is important.  It becomes no longer about you v. xNH -- it becomes preparing DS for going out into the wider world of men and realizing that other men judge/see right through those who manipulate and BS them.

You can use this time to teach DS that the world is chock full of abandonments of varying kinds, and show him what they are, how they occur -- and the fact that humans survive them every second of the day, finding ways to be creative, inventive, survive and thrive.  You can work with him to diffuse that all-looming fear and reshift the balance of power, letting him know that he'll go off to school/into the world and that things will change anyway, because they must, but that his father will remain his father wherever he, and xNH, are in the world.  Move such an absolute toward a more constant in the spectrum of his mind.  You can shift the focus of discussion from the ways DS "caused" his father's abandonment to how his father would ultimately "cause" his son's abandonment of him -- by his behaviors.  Even the playing field.  This gives DS more power 1:1 with xNH man to man.

Since d began her therapy together with XNH this spring, after years and years of her being stifled by him and so very, very fearful of speaking her truth, there's been a dramatic change in d -- she's gotten more confident after every meeting, more assertive, stronger in her physical voice even, more sure of herself.  Now she has her own permission to grow up and stand stronger on her own feet, seeing that she didn't get blown over.  The fear was to dare to take that first step, fear of XNH's reprisals, fear of his lashing out for revenge, fear of his attacks on me.  But XNH is aware that d is just a year from her right to choose and he's afraid of losing her completely (or, if he isn't, his family would be).  

This can be used now to advantage.  

I hope any of this may be of help to you.

NewWings4MeNow

[Sweatheart]

Monique,

As I understand N has the primary custody. Does it mean that if he wishes, he might demand that your son will live with him all the time?
As the things are now, where is the home that your son considers as his home? Is it your house or his Dad's? Or none of them? Does he have his own room at Dad's, does he have his own room at yours?

Parenting with N is very tricky and if you want to establish control, then you have to be made of steel. I am not sure what rights do you have if N has the primary custody... I had a primary custody for my son, when I divorced with his Dad and it meant that my son lives with me and dad can visit him if he want so. It did lead to the situation when his Dad moved to the far away state because he found the job there. My son asked me then: "Mom, are we going to move there too?" And I told him: "No, why should I move only because it is serving my ex? If he considered that with his move, he might lose the opportunity to see you, and it would have been unacceptable for him, then he wouldn't move." My son agreed that this makes sense. It does hurt to understand that Dad doesn't love him as much as he needs. But I do believe it is better to know sooner than later.

So in your shoes, I would most likely get the custody back, move out of this area and stand the storm. I do not know, I think it is not good for the young boy to change his skin every time he walks in the house of different parent. Plus, I do not think it is healthy for him to know that his dad has primary custody ONLY because he doesn't want to pay what he owns for his (son's) upbringing. It is also not healthy for him to know that you passively enable this situation. Where he is going to learn love and trust?

I am sorry Monique for being so blunt, but consider that I do not know ALL of your situation and also I am not giving you this advice, I am just telling you where I think what would be a good thing to do.   

If this is not an option, I am not sure what to advice, because I am not sure what rights do you have... I would try to be soft and try to invest a lot of interest in the boy's life, his hobbies, what he likes, what he doesn't and support him as much as I could.

If anyone would know how to parent well.....

[monique94550]

Sweatheart,

xNH and I live in the same neighborhood.  My son is with me one week out of each month, plus each Thursday, and every other weekend.  He's with xNH the rest of the time.  (He has a bedroom in each of our homes.)  That's according to our custody agreement.

The courts where I live won't allow that agreement to change unless there has been a significant change in the circumstances, and there hasn't been.  The only possibility would be for my son to decide that he doesn't want to be with xNH, and we could probably get it changed based on that.

The courts where I live also are very eager to make sure that the parental rights of fathers are honored.

My son and I have a very close emotional bond, since it was just the two of us for so many years.

It is hard on my son to "change his skin" between houses.  I hate that he has to do that.  No one has told my son that the only reason his father has primary custody is because his father didn't want to pay me back child support.  My son does know his father abandoned him when he was a baby, but I suspect xNH has somehow manipulated my son into believing that that is somehow my responsibility.

When I agreed to xNH having primary custody, I thought I was doing the best thing I could for my son.  xNH had a nice house, and he worked at home, so my son could come home from school and not have to go to daycare after school.  xNH is financially stable, and at the time I was renting a room and barely had money for food.  xNH was acting like he would be very generous with letting me see my son as much as I wanted (on top of the minimum amount).  Also I wanted to just make the whole money problem go away so xNH could just focus on his relationship with our son and not on the money.  I also had been told by psychologists that it is very, very important for a boy to have a strong relationship with his father.  So for all those reasons I agreed to xNH having primary custody, and it nearly killed me when xNH turned into an a**hole and started jerking me around when I tried to see my son anything more than the very minimum.

I have my son next on Thursday, and we will talk then.  I'll pray, and hopefully God will put the right words in my mouth.

 

Thanks.

Monique

[monique94550]

RB22,

I just saw your post.  It sounds like we have a lot in common.  I have to read it later when I have a chance to digest it.

Thanks everyone for your help.  I appreciate this SO much.  I've NEVER had people who understood what the heck I've been going through with xNH.

This is such a gift.

Monique

[RB22]

monique,

My kids know the money (CS) situation in my home... they know exactly how much he pays.  I had to tell them and actually I ended up proving it to them by showing them documents on what exactly I receive.  I had to do it. MY X was telling my kids that I took him to court and he pays me 90% of his paycheck.  They were getting angry with me that I couldn't pay for things for them.

In helping them figure things out... I used monopoly money, all the money that came into the household... my paychecks from 2 jobs, alimony, CS... all went into one envelope.  Each bill got it's own envelope... and the income envelope "paid" the bills by putting the correct amount of monopoly money in each envelope... and what we had leftover was what we could spend on fun stuff.

Some months there wasn't enough money to go around... others we had money to play with.

I also proved his 90% wrong... he is a municipal employee... their paystubs are online... so I looked it up... showed them what I recieved... (noted on the bottom of his paystub)  and put that lie to rest.

Everytruth that they questioned (because he told them different) I could prove my answers...  My kids know.  I needed them to know, in order to give them ammunition to stop him using them that way. It was the only way I could think to save them from years of this type of manipulation.  And to help give them thier voice. with him.  They have no trouble arguing with me.. it's him.

I think it has helped... they do seem more confident in some aspects.  In others not so... he can lay on the guilt very thick... so we are working on that now.

I seriously think your son needs to know that you loved him so much and wanted for him to have what he wanted ( a relationship with his father) that you felt HIS relationship with dad was more important than the money you were owed.  And the deal was made...... that he get custody and that noone pays child support. 

He needs to know that you love him enough to NOT think about the money.  He can figure out on his own based on dad's actions that money  and control were dad's primary object in having custody...  secondary... is his need to hurt you by using your son to do it.

It hurts... but better he knows than he wonders... things arent making sense to him.. if his father wanted to take care of him so badly....why did he just NOW want custody?  Why didn't he make sure his baby boy had enough food, electic for heat... etc.. ? 

Sad thing to do... but is it better to live with the illusion you were loved, or the truth .... especially when the LOVE is hurting you.

Hugs,

RB

[eyes_up]

"if his father wanted to take care of him so badly....why did he just NOW want custody?  Why didn't he make sure his baby boy had enough food, electic for heat... etc.. ?  " ~ RB22

Exactly ... glad you brought this up RB. I was thinking this.

monique, your son is 14 and he needs to know the truth ... any fantasy that you are upkeeping for him will not serve him. I knew all the fact about my father. He did not pay child support and that helped me not take any of his bull.

If your son can not see the lie in his father saying he would take care of getting the phone hooked up but then changes it to yard work on your day with him... he is being fooled. The whole thing is a head   uck. Your son is being introduced and processed through unhealthy behavior that already is affecting him. He can not say... NO YOU SAID AND YOU KEEP TO YOUR WORD OR I GO HOME WITH MOM. That is voice. He needs to know what a boundary is and what his rights are even if he doesn't get it right now... he will.

eyes

[NewWings4MeNow]

Monique,

I have to agree with RB and eyes in their perspectives for you on this.

As humor is a "difficult concept" to Vulcans, so truth is a difficult concept to N/Ps.  In this case "The truth [really will] set you [and DS] free.  Nothing threatens them more, or shuts them up faster, than incontrovertible, hard, cold, proven, facts.

The opportunity here is to teach DS a manner of thinking, to show him what it really means to live, see and listen consciously, to pay attention to people's words v. their actions, to apply judgment and discerning based on in/consistency, to get to know/trust his own inner gut when something doesn't feel right or smells fishy in his interactions with xNH/NW or any "off" person he comes upon.  This could be a powerful turning point moment in DS's development and your putting a stake in the ground as his defender independent of money, location, court-ordered anything.  Truth.

I've spent days out with d just going through life, having observant conversations with her as she interprets inter/actions of those around her:  Comments made by the check-out clerk, the gas station guy's attitude, how a mother treats her child.  What it is, what it seems, what we think it means, what it really means type of conversations, showing why it's so very important that we actively pay attention to human behavior as a skill that can be life- and sanity-saving.  Some practice exercises dissecting interactions.  Truth.

Fact is that xNH is screwing with him, and some blunt conversation would now be in order, adult to adult even between you and DS.  You'd actually be showing him substantial respect to ratchet your talks up to this level, even telling him you think he can handle it.  Truth.

I've told d that she's at a prime place in her life to choose, to decide, what kind of person she's going to be in the world, and what kind of impression she's going to give to the world/how she's going to be perceived, what her character will be and what she stands for as a person.  That it's up to her (certainly not me) and that she will own her own impact, for good or for ill.  Will she have a strong backbone and principles, really deciding to know herself and societal boundaries she sets up, or be a wet noodle and less well defined (with neither of these being rigid or absolutist)?  Truth.

D knows my financial situation, my employment situation, my heart's greatest hurts, what really interests me in life, where I do and do not need help, what I've learned about N/P people/men that she'll need to apply to Rs she has with people/boys/men, what I envision for her and me as my dream going forward.  I decided that, should I get hit by a bus tomorrow, I wanted my d to be able to say that she'd really known her mother, not just superficially, and that I'd really played a role as a model for her with the hard/deep stuff, not just the fluff.  And the more she's known, the more she's wanted to know.  Mutuality, regard, trust, respect, competence, reliability.  Truth.

" ... it hurts, but better he knows than he wonders."  ~ RB
" ... if [d's] father wanted to take care of [her] so badly ..." why did he leave us without money for food or gas and fly off to Europe with $1000 cash?  Why has he left her hanging all those (recent) times?  Why did he rush to replace her own mother with someone new and try to reprogram d's brain to forget her completely?  Why did he say he didn't care where she lived?  Why is she 13 and he's only saved one year's worth of college funds for her?  Investigate.  Learn.  Study.  Discover.  Know.  Become empowered with "it is what it is".

This is always better than hurting from the one(s) who are supposed to love us the most, and (usually) with more pain felt from those than from most anybody else we've ever known.  If it doesn't feel right, it isn't.

I'm crossing my fingers for you and DS this week.

NewWings4MeNow

[RB22]

Monique,

The first therapist I took the kids to, recommended that I never let the kids know what happened in my marriage, what was decided in the divorce decree... etc... basically keep them in the dark.   And I did. for as long as I could without it effecting MY relationship with them.  My X was feeding them poison about me... I said nothing.. hoping my actions would speak louder than his words.  If I countered with words... my kids would tell me 'dad said you would say that, and that you were lying' I was loosing my kids and I had my kids living with me... it was such an awful existence for all of us.  My kids were being told how to think of me(and listening) and it wasn't messing with what they were seeing... my actions.   

That therapist moved away.... I ended up finding another when one D told me she wanted to end her life.  My attorney recommended her to me.... they were friends.  This therapist did equine therapy.... my kids took care of horses, rode, and talked. 

It came out that my kids didn't respect me because I never stood up to dad. For myself or even them.  And they never doubted that I loved them.... they worried that I couldn't be the mom that I was with them anymore because I needed dad to be there... And they needed me to be the mom I used to be.

It was also explained to me how young children develop self awareness/conscience/voice/esteem. 

Basically, a young child sees something, looks to an adult they adore for confirmation that they both saw the same thing.   If the adult validates the young child... consistently the child develops a sense of self that is true to what they see/feel as it was confirmed by an adult.

However if a young child sees something, and the adult tells the child that didn't happen. It leaves the child confused who is right.. the child or the adult. And since the child LOVES the adult so much the child with defer to the adults version of what happened. As a result the child grows up... not trusting themselves with what they see/feel  and accepting what others tell them over what they know.  And this can be a life long habit.....

Not a good place to be for kids of N's... who will announce the sky is purple... and we have to teach our kids that the sky is not purple just because he says it is so.

As a result of those intense therapy sessions with my kids... that therapist talked to my therapist and my therapist came up with a few questions for me... (I was still reeling from the divorce, his remarriage a couple of weeks after... it hadn't been 4 months from his leaving till he was divorced, remarried.  I couldn't think straight)   The one that made me sit up and take notice...

"if he had died, what would you do differently?"   The man I knew, married, had kids with HAD died.  He even parented differently... than he did when we were married.   He was so full of hatred at me... anger was to weak to describe what he had.... he was lashing out in very covert ways.. keeping me from getting a job by calling the company I interviewed with to tell them some deep dark secret he thought I didn't share with them... I did. But they rescinded their offer, because " they didn't want a potential domestic violence situation in their office." In other words they thought he would go postal... and they didn't want it happening on their premises.

All I wanted was for him to go away and leave me alone... Just leave me alone.

He wouldn't. He and she kept attacking me, my integrity, my voice... etc. Then he took a job that made less money and wanted to cut CS.  He volunteered to take a job that paid 1200 a month less and wanted HIS children to take a 700 month cut in CS.  I fought it, we went to court.  I proved that He voluntarily left his job.... a year earlier... and God was smiling on me... the Night before we went to court, I went online to look for his old job description.... and found out it was open and they were advertising it.  So my attorney asked him IF the position was still open would he be interested in having it back... he said yes and she pulled out the advertisement.  He was sunk... I proved he wasn't being laid off... like he told everyone.. he even went so far as to tell his supervisor he was being phased out.  His position is guarenteed by grant money from the federal Gov't.... for 10 years at a time... it was renewed the year before... with even more money available for salary increases. 

But he was telling my kids I was lying, he was gonna be laid off... without a job... and in the mean time he was threatening me with he was going to quit and flip burgers and I would only get half of that for CS.  but the kids never heard that.

I ended up after he told the kids I lied in court and the judge believed my lies.. (yep those lies were backed up with a paper trail the size of a manhattan phonebook)  I sat the kids down and went thru the whole process, why we agreed to ____, and _____, why I thought this was fair... and I gave up this for that, because this was more important to me... or I thought this would be more important as they grew older... etc..   basically showing them my reasoning behind EVERY thing.

It showed my kids I wasn't a wimp, but I was worried about and made concessions to him... so they wouldn't suffer in their relationship with them.

He had done so much damage to my kids voices.. you could almost here the sigh escape from their bodies when what I showed them and talked about why I did what I did.... and my reasoning behind my choices.... that what I was telling them MATCHED what they were feeling at the time.  All this paperwork, me talking to them...explaining to them.... all VALIDATED them and what they thought was true.

Like my therapist said, it had to come out... better they know NOW then find out later after I am gone, and they are going thru my papers... and then putting together the story... and then realizing the job dad did on them... and they let him by shutting me out.

I am sorry for the very long ramble... I hope you got this far... this is something I am passionate about... the kids need a voice and they need what they are seeing validated as NOT normal.  Because it isn't.  Normal people don't behave this way....

Hugs,

RB

[eyes_up]

RB, My mother therapist told her to tell the truth. Interesting how these verry huge deals can change from one T to the next.

eyes