"Snot is Running Down His Nose" XNH Behavior

[Litha]

FYI, I asked my son about this just to get a guys perspective and a younger generation perspective too. He is 24 years old and he has never seen anyone do this either, though he had heard that runners do it during marathons. He thought it sounded disgusting.

[NewWings4MeNow]

Litha,

That was nice of you to do!  Did you give your son the context and did he attribute any particular meaning to it in terms of R, not just the act itself?  I'm just curious from a younger man's perspective.

NewWings4MeNow

[Litha]

He said it made some sense to him for runners to do that in the context of a race. He enjoys running too and can understand not wanting to stop to find a kleenex (we joked a little about standing along the race route handing out hankies like they hand out little cups of water).

He thought doing it in any other context was "just gross." This from someone who had no problem dissecting cadavers for anatomy class. He seemed to think it reflected more on the low quality of the man doing it than upon you or your daughter.

And he really likes your tshirts 

[NewWings4MeNow]

Litha,

Tell your son I'm glad he likes the Ts, to hurry on in and buy some while they're on sale, and that I've shipped just this week to Dublin, Ireland, New South Wales, Australia and Visp, Switzerland.

Also tell him that I definitely agree that it reflects on the man, and that I was with XNH while he ran in several marathons so I do know the runner's behavior when it's situationally appropriate.  I walked that mall sidewalk just yesterday, and there's no way he didn't see us as the space is very defined.

NewWings4MeNow

[TXGal]

I walked that mall sidewalk just yesterday, and there's no way he didn't see us as the space is very defined.

Yes, just being gross in public in front of your ex-wife and dd.  Just making sure the ex-wife is double, double, double mint happy she is no longer married to you... and dd can see that you act like no other adult she knows...

Are you sure he is NPD?  I have never heard of a npd person wanting Bad attention... they want to be treated special and they always act way above other people... they'd never make themselves look bad in public, they might make others look bad, but never themselves.....  no matter if he is Borderline and wants attention even bad attention or npd, he is not right.  There is something seriously wrong with him. 

Somehow I wish you could get him on video ... as proof he is unstable. 

[overwhelmed]

It's funny how a person can see clearly anothers situation yet, me, in my own, not so clear. Then, I read this and here's what popped in my mind, standing out so crystal clear.  You know how they seek attention like a 2 year old? Yet a 2 year old does it out of living innocence when grandma arrives for a visit, running all around acting silly. My n would seek it in different ways depending on the setting and the kind he knew he could or could not get. I also hate to use the word seek. It was more like he forced it in certain situations.  Bare with me as I get to the point I'm trying to make on my take of his act which is so something mine would do. For example, let's say we were in a professional type setting. A dinner at an annual conference and across a huge room was a well respected, possibly more successful person across a huge room. N would quietly tell me who he was alongside a negative follow-up on how he's not "all that" in his n way.  N would notice him in the corner of his eye, pretending not to but he was. As the said person made his way closer, n's posture would change to that "bow up" way. His demeanor would be as if he was trying to exert himself as stronger. Now if this person were to say "hi n" and acknowledge his knowing him, remembering him, etc, this stance would change that second. If the person didn't, the one who is more successful/seeming to be better known, if he didn't, the stance, glare, etc grew. And ice seen it many times and a lot of times, the person probably didn't see him in a huge crowd but n took it personal as if it was on purpose. That's in a professional setting. In a bar let's say, that would end by the end of the night as a reason to stair someone down hoping for a fight. I view what yours did as that...Ukraine he saw you, well before you him. The thing he did was his way of forcing his attention. And yes, in a hateful way. See, you should have noticed him from way far away. Not about you as you know, it was his way of stealing attention, albeit negative  hateful attention from a object who is more successful than he is. His way of exerting his dominance like a dog. A show of power in a situation you have more. Had you noticed him first, he wouldn't have done it. But he saw you, enjoying your d and she had your attention, no show, you weren't pretending "interested mom" for anyone, just being you with her...he's envious of it and how could you not notice him, still be interested even in a negative way, in any which way...so yeah, as he got closer "snort" take that.

[NewWings4MeNow]

overwhelmed,

Yes, you're getting it with on-point toddler examples, and certainly seem to have seen it with your N and body/voice posturing and social snubs.  While d and I sat at the sidewalk table there I noticed XNH coming toward us generally for about six feet or so, then watched in amazement as he paused in front of us, snorted, and kept walking.

To your earlier comment, I have no idea whether XNH is N, P, N/P or any kind of label.  I know that against me he broke laws, that he's lied, cheated, stolen property and money, forged my signature on a financial instrument (without my knowledge), attempted real estate fraud, falsified court documents, called in a phony police report on me etc., and that (per his own admission during the marriage) earlier in his life grew/sold/did serious drugs and set a developer's sign on fire in an act of "environmental terrorism" (he called it).  Generally I think of XNH as a very slick, conscience/regret-free white collar criminal psychopath abuser type, and I don't ever seem to be disappointed taking this position.  

I have a lot of examples of XNH inserting himself for negative attention.  One of the most overt was when I took d to Seattle for Christmas touring and skiing when she was perhaps nine (she's 13.5 now).  XNH had commuted to work there for several years post-D and had never brought her there to visit.  I'd approached him to shift 50:50 custody to up there so d and I could live affordably, and he refused because (he wrote) it wasn't convenient to his gf's (NW's) needs.  So during the trip, the very day d and I arrived in the snowy, picturesque mountains and were parking so she could ski, he TMd me suddenly demanding make-up time for her for dates something like three months in the future -- not time-critical or anything having to do with what we were doing, and certainly not a reason for a TM -- he just wanted to reach me right then and knew I was mobile.  At this point I was still very much grieving the marriage, not over him, wondering about his incessant communications with me, and his objective was to derail our enjoyment alone together, derail my success at making it happen on my own, and turn my attention instead toward dealing with his needs and communicating with him.  He was envious that we were together at Christmas, in the mountains (which he loves), skiing (his favorite sport), near a city where he'd worked, and because he wasn't doing it too (perhaps even with us).  It was so obvious and so sad, and so hurtful to me at that point because I knew he just wanted to ruin it for me.

For a number of years I shared these experiences with male friends and quite a few of them said (in addition to "What a psycho!"), "Are you sure he's not still in love with you?" "It sounds like he's still in love with you," and "Maybe he's still in love with you since he seems to need to be in touch with you so much."  It was a very sick emotion, whatever it was, and especially considering that he was the one who left the marriage, filed for the D, tried (with his family's help) to take full custody of d, was with gf/NW immediately and never uttered a peep about reconciliation).  During a meeting with the mediator two years ago or so, I read them excerpts about people in D being as addicted to their former spouse as they were inclined to drugs, and I told them both that I saw XNH like any stranger and would act accordingly if I was aggressed against.  His behavior didn't really abate until d aged and until he hit d in the head last spring which was, for me, The Last Thing.

Icky, scary, immature and sad given the man I thought I knew so many years ago.

NewWings4MeNow

[RB22]

my X does similar stuff NewWings did on that Seattle trip... ONLY he texts the kids directly. 

Last year during the thanksgiving holiday 3 daughters and myself drove 5 states away, picked up other D, (who was not speaking to X at the time)  and continued onto BF's family for the holiday.  It was a 22 hour drive away.  We left to return on saturday around 7-8am. reversing our trip.  Dropped D off at college and continued driving straight thru till home. 

X was texting the kids the time he was awake and we were on the road.  About 12 hours.... in that time he had sent.. over 200 texts to the 2 kids I have on my phone plan. 3rd D is on another plan, I do not see her information. 

Anytime I do something with the kids.... he texts.  After a while... they ignore him.

Serves him right.  He has texted them during plays, movies, basketball games, etc...

Must suck to get all those interruptions to your fun.  Thank God he doesn't text me.

[overwhelmed]

They are a piece of work, I tell you.  I can't believe I didn't realize a lot of this stuff for all those years.  I guess it's because the HUGE things are so outrageous, the more subtle things we don't catch as "crazy".  Not that blowing snot in public isn't something that would stand out but I'm sure you know what I mean.  I noticed N doing this thing I described, I was kind of embarrassed for him, although I wouldn' thave said that to him but, I didn't think of it as a sign of his abusive ways.  I do now.  I even remember him doing that with me at times, that same stance.  Newwings, you know these N's seek attention or "force" it as I observe.  They don't care if you love them or fear them or hate them, just as long as you something them.  You'd have made his day had you said something, even "that's disgusting", it would have been, in his mind, that he can still get to you.  If he can get to you, then he's still "in you" in his twisted mind.  Just as he doesn't care much about your d's requests for her living situation, for who she'd like to live with, it isn't about his "love for her", it's about him playing a part of "I'm such a great Dad, see me."  Dumb butt doesn't even know a Dad who is great, loves his children above himself....I have one of those with my 3 children from a previous marriage.  He and I are "normal" with each other, we are even great parents together, friends, etc....sometimes your children request things that quietly make you say "ouch" but you don't let them know.  You understand that in a situation such as divorce, things aren't always exactly how you want them, time is shared, etc.  Last, if a child speaks up and says something like, "Is it ok if I go to my Dads this weekend also because I wanted him to take me to the baseball game even though we were going to go together, is that ok..." (which has happened to me, an example that pops up) he said it to me because he's in a great place with me, he knows I am ok with him speaking up and that it's safe to do so...you know why?  because I wouldn't ever let him know it hurts my feelings, isn't about me.  These jerks.  He did that in an attempt to force himself on you, to try and get something from you.  And just cuz they're idiots.  And yes, I believe it was out of power or dislike, like a child who was "taking his ball and going home because something happened they didn't like".   I'm sorry that as far as you've come, you still have to deal with him in any capacity, especially one like that that is so transparent.  Your d is lucky to have you for a mom...in the years to come, as she grows more life understanding, experience and wisdom, you're going to see just how grateful she is to you for it.  I believe that with all my heart.  As will my daughter.  The alternative would be, even if we didn't stay, we not come to understand N's and run just as great of a risk for our d's to end up in our shoes someday.  that thought makes me sick, my d having to go through this.

[NewWings4MeNow]

Hi overwhelmed,

I really appreciate the insights you bring to the forum; you seem to be a delving/digging/observant kind of person -- in the midst of your own hardships and pain.  Am glad to learn that you find XNH's behavior "transparent".

The night of d's cotillion, as we were still separated and things were relatively fresh, I was embarrassed to see XNH there in all his inappropriate sweatiness, and recall that, not long after he entered, I made it a point to change my seating, breeze by him and I said, "The specified attire for the evening was 'cocktail'," and kept going.  No wonder he then stayed for an hour ....

Am glad that you have a Normal experience with an X co-parenting a child.  That must give you quite a contrast.  I didn't budget from the parenting plan schedule, and was advised to not do so, as XNH tried to get extra time with d immediately.  E.g. the very first weekend he left our home, and I had d and he was to have visitation, he called saying that XILs were in town (amazing timing -- they were there to bail out their little 42 year old boy) and that d had to come stay with them for four days.  I told him "No" and to leave us alone and let us grieve in peace.  XNMIL called me and I told her no because it was my time with d; I'll never forget her (therapist's) reply:  She said to me, "You're arguing with a pillow."  XNH's aggressive "taking" behavior and attempts to wipe me from d's mind and life were like a freight train thereafter.

I've talked with d about XNH's penchant for scheduling voluntary things with her during my parenting time and informing me afterward with "We have tickets for ..." "I'm taking d to ..." language forcing me to be the bad guy and say no.  I've had to come at this by teaching d about the importance of contracts and agreements, keeping to terms and honoring them, and how N/Ps do exactly the opposite of that -- this she's learned and seen first-hand knowing that XNH lied to me about agreeing to our moveaway request last year. 

RB, do you ever talk w/your girls about the illness, obsession and level of control need that sending that many TMs to one's kids represents?  XNH almost never calls my phone now to speak with d, and he doesn't even call her phone.  Now he gets to her by IM online.  I think one reason he's never abused the phone is that I'm the one who bought d her phone (twice -- after the one I got her magically disappeared in the first couple of months), who has paid for her phone plan for seven years and I've let her know that, and that it's been a safety issue for her sake.

overwhelmed, I've gone this path and stuck to this process with d since she was young specifically so she would learn what I didn't until I was 44.

More later,

NewWings4MeNow

[overwhelmed]

Newwings, you've given me some great perspectives on my limited threads here.  I remember (not the exact thread) reading you speaking of how you became a different person at home vs out of the home.  I remember the examples you gave.  Perhaps, not to the same extent but, I did as well.  I believe if it wasn't for my first marriage and my children from that marriage, it would have been even more extreme than anything you described.  See, my home would become unorganized after a struggle N created...it would cycle as his abusive cycle did.  I remember looking around, thinking sometimes at the shape my house/car/appearance, could get in the matter of 24 hours...it was my inside showing on the outside.  It was my reminder to refocus on "us" (me/my kids outside of N) and I'd whip it back in line....of course, that would take 6 hours of focused effort with the kids at school. which was sometimes hard but, I would do it.  To most, it probably seemed like many homes with a big family....that once a week mess if you didn't stay on top of it that could evolve in a flash.  But, it was more than that.  My first marriage was my frame of reference.  Although it ended, it was "normal", he was normal...sadly, I just wasn't.  Note, he wasn't perfect but, he was "normal."  My situation with my youngest, was the part I was holding back here in that paranoid way I let go of (thank you for that because I needed to get it out here, not in private).  In any event, I know in my heart, you'll realize one day just how grateful your D is for you.  I'm sure, on some level, you know already and she shows you and tells you but, in a deeper sense, one you'll experience bigger than you could imagine.  My oldest, who will be 14 next month, told me months ago something I will never forget....I believe his not being N's child enabled him the ability to see things from the outside in ways I didn't realize he could or in ways, if he were his son, he may not be able to fully (that and also having a "normal" dad).  Now that you know about my youngest, this will make sense...one night, he and I were talking about a bunch of nothing, just hanging out being us.  N and I, after the baby was born learned we share the same genetic mutation.  We have a 1 in 4 chance of having a baby with the same syndrome as our son.  There are 50 reported cases in the world and it's a very rare mutation to share, making for a very rare syndrome.  My oldest knows all this.  He also knows a ressissive genetic syndrome between parents is an unfortunate act of nature. not the kind of thing that is a negative indication between husband/wife.  With that said, he told me, "mama, I believe the baby was sent here to save your life, to show you the biggest sign of all, you deserve better than you'll ever get with N, even genetics are sending you signals.  They said, "here, love this baby...he's going to change your life, everyone will love him, everyone will think he's the coolest person alive.  But something so special doesn't belong around a man who would let him spend 30 seconds crying out of fear because of his anger, because he'd yell that loud at his mother without caring that is was scaring someone who can't say help but can sense danger." 

That from a 13 year old, word for word.  I cried and told him I couldn't be more proud...not straight a's, not any ivy league college acceptance, not any accomplishment would ever make me as proud as I was of him in that moment.  Being the voice of someone like that.  That's what motivates me to not go against what I know isn't ok for the baby until/unless I am forced by a judge if that does indeed happen.  My son taught me to not go against my voice just to keep peace or out of fear because someone may think I am trying to keep him from N out of spite.  That isn't true.  Your D, as much as she knows/sees, is able to maintain her self with her dad....one day, her voice is going to just stump you in your favor and you are going to know, more than you already do, that your strength saved her.  And she is going to tell you so!  I know this with all that I am.  In that sixth sense kind of way, for some reason, I had to say that to you and I don't hardly know you or your situation.  But it stood out to me on this thread and warmed my heart.

[NewWings4MeNow]

overwhelmed,

Thank you for bringing me to tears.

Your son is growing up an observant, compassionate, protective person with insight into others -- that's pretty fantastic. 

And I'm glad that you're incorporating that focus into your life.

Your son's words about your d remind me of those times when:

- D was just 7 and XNH took her on a week-long backpacking "vacation" (the two of them alone) and in the first days she called me crying from fatigue and upset as he'd taken her up the same mountain he'd taken me -- a 5K' vertical and trails populated only by hardened midlife male hikers.  I yelled at him to get our d out of there and into a hotel right away.
- Before our marriage ended (d was maybe five) and we were on a "wild westing" car trip with d and stopped at a mountain river/lake where people were innertubing in white water.  Against my wishes XNH took d uphill and set her upon the river by herself in an innertube where she hit rocks, spun around, her face was one of horror and she was crying.
- The week we split I took d up to Disneyland but I was so upset we stayed for an hour or so and left.  Took d to the "Pirates of the Caribbean" building, but she was so afraid just in the dark foyer, and she was the only child in there, that we immediately walked out.  The next weekend XNH took her back to Disney, both days, and took her on that same ride six times.  
- Hearing from d (again, at around seven) while she was on a ski mountain with XNH.  "Mama, I'm on a double black diamond!"  Me:  "D, look around you.  Are there any other children around you at all?"  Her:  "No."  Me:  "D, there's a reason for that."  We talked through why it wasn't a good idea for her to be there.

XNH has exposed d to unnecessary risks instead of working with her on them at appropriate ages.

I've asked d a year ago if XNH had EVER talked with her about boys, about behaviors, about sex, about drugs.  She said "No.  He never talks to me about anything."

For d's protection, her education about living life (in many aspects) in moderation, has been my job.

Thanks for your sixth sense.  I'm going to write it down and hope like heck that you're right.

NewWings4MeNow

[overwhelmed]

I am, I just know it and I'm not altogether why.  I bet you do to.  You used the word "hope" and I read that as the hebrew symbol for the word hope.  I'm unsure you know about it but, it's something I've carried with me since seeing it the first time and reading what it means.  It came full circle the night my oldest said that to me.  Hebrew, being a concrete language, where lots of words can be sensed, hope, is a knowing....not a wishful thinking.  So, you go on hoping newwings but, in it's hebrew meaning.  Take that symbol and your "newwings" and keep on being the voice/life of honesty, compassion, choices, freedom, unconditional love, support, open arms, acceptance, humility, reason and imperfection to your wonderful D! 

My N loves to frustrate our D...the baby, he just throws a line out to once in a while but D, the 6 year old is a playful, in your face kind of young kid.  N loves to tease her unmercifully.  He claims she is just "faking" when she's screaming for him to stop because she's had enough.  He says that because she does laugh in between her frustrated screams.  She bounces from laughing to frustration to screaming for him to stop to hitting him, to laughing again and he just thinks it's so funny.  I however, do not.  When she talks about it when it isn't going on, he'll tell her, "I thought you liked it, you know we're just playing".  In other words, "stop being a baby, you know you like it, you are not telling the truth" even though she IS telling him, just like he does to me on a different level when I would try to tell him how I feel.  redefining her words.  Or he'll tell her, "oh stop.  quit telling on me, you loved it, you are fibbing."  Once, our D told him that my ex was "so funny and she loves playing with him."  I just knew I was in for it...I never discussed my ex with him or how nice he was to D.  I knew not to.  My ex is nice to her because she is his childrens sister and he likes kids.  N flipped and told her, "don't ever say that again, he's a jacka$$ and you'll never see him again."  D was heartbroken and told him not to call ex that, she cried, "N, I love you both, he isn't that word."  Poor thing.  Later, when he wasn't around she asked why he said that, I said, "I'm not sure, why do you think."  she said because he is jealous and doesn't know how to love lots of people...can you believe that?  from a 6 year old?  I said, "how does that make you feel"  she told me it made her feel bad because ex was nice and N was lieing.  I told her I would feel that way to if someone said that to me but not everyone loves lots of people and we don't have to try and change that, those people can be their way and we would be ours.  Now she says that, "oh daddy, just be your way and I will be mind."  oh he gets mad.