"know it alls"

[May]

Are all  "know it alls"  pathylogical?    I've noticed that I walk on egg shells when Iam around them fearing that I will say the wrong thing. They seem to be hypersensitive  to anything people say. Even if you are not disagreeing with them. These people can dish it out but  can't take it when it comes back to them. What really ticks me off are the enablers around them. When you say something back to these people(whatever they are dishing at the time), the enablers act as though you have no right to stand up for yourself.

Anybody deal with this before?

[Dandelion]

If I understand you right I would have been one of those know it all people before I started working with my self.
It was merely a facade, a coping method to cover up for the low selfesteem that I didn't even know I had.
Anyone who questioned me, was thought to be (by me) inferior and uninteresting...scary....

Meeting one like myself today...well...I sometimes do and my strategy is to simply smile at them and say as little as possible - get out while I can. I know that as long as they haven't seen it themselves, it is a lost cause and it's not my place to show them what I see. Today I do not have the strength for battles like that.

Was that in any way an answer to your post?

Mette

[May]

Yes, thank you Mette.


I also forgot to say that the enablers want you to spare the "know it alls" feelings getting hurt but who cares about yours.

[NewWings4MeNow]

May,

When I was in my mid-20s and working in a retail store doing design (after years working for/with lawyers), the woman I worked for was 10 years older and her h was 20 years older.  He was a very full-of-himself D.C. lobbyist with no sense of humor who definitely looked down on me, though I (also) lived in a rented house just blocks from theirs in Georgetown but I wasn't politically connected over decades.  During that time I dated a newly-minted lawyer who encouraged me to go back to B-school, and I did.  That h one time called me a "sexual intellectual" and I didn't realize for years what he meant:  A "f*cking know-it-all".  

Now, maybe I was as self-absorbed as most people my age I knew then, but I don't think so as I received social invitations that that couple didn't receive.  I thought the man was resentful because of my close, sisterly R with his w (their marriage was rocky then), resentful of the college I'd gone to, and resentful of the B-school I would be attending -- in the manner of "Who does she think she is?"  When I married briefly in NY, they flew in for the wedding, took a stretch limo to the church, stayed for the ceremony but flew back to DC without even staying for the reception, and I'm sure that was at the h's insistence.  What I found ironic and sad was that the wedding attendees were, to a large extent, my parents' powerful political and NY finance friends, which could have benefited the guy.  

I don't consider myself to be pathological, and would say that any time there's a clash of abilities, exposures, insight levels and personal comfort with accomplishment/ego/esteem, there will be folks who like "know it alls" for their strength, creativity, risk-orientation, folks who resent "know it alls" (see above) and folks who feel uncomfortable because of some comparative about which the "know it all" might have no clue as it's not what they're focusing on at the moment.  

Again a sad irony:  Unless someone is wildly unusually gifted, a polymath the likes of a DaVinci, a Jefferson, a Franklin -- quite illuminated (and aren't they lucky?), not everyone knows everything.  So someone spouting off/holding forth about topic(s) on which they happen to be expert might be resented just for them being themselves.  But that same person spouting off on, say, nuclear physics, knows s/he better keep quiet in a room full or ornithologists or a discussion about a book they've never read.  If they do, they're showing their own humility and respect for others at the same time.  If they just keep yammering and need the spotlight though their knowledge is vacuous, then they're leading with ego.  If they're hypersensitive to anyone else jumping in with value to share, is that a problem?  Yes.  If their "expertise" comes on the backs of people/ideas they're putting down, is that a problem?  I personally think so.  

Are we all "know it alls" of a sort from time to time?  Yep.  Could we all improve?  Yep.  Is it annoying/disheartening to be in any room with folks ("know it alls" together with their enablers/proxies) who try to prevent us from having any Voice of any kind?  Definitely.  

I went through it in my own town.  XNH declared that I was mentally ill to d's school mate parents.  The women (XNH's proxies) then came at me and told me that I wasn't allowed to speak about my XNH in their town.  Which was, apparently, not my town too (news to me).  Were they trying to be "know it alls" or trying to act as the authority figures?  Seemed that way.  Did they have the power of position to do so?  No, but they thought they did.  Did it hurt me either way?  Yes.  A lot.  If I'd stood up for myself to them would it have made a lick of difference?  No.  XNH's campaign was spread wide and I was putting my finger in holes in the dyke.  "Mentally ill" is a powerful little carefully worded/vague/over-arching phrase that doesn't address behaviors (certainly not his) and spreads like a cancer.  Whether it's backed with facts or history becomes irrelevant; perception becomes reality in a heartbeat, destruction can be swift and repair useless.  "Pick your battles" and "Stay and die, or leave and live to fight another day" become sage advice.

This response has rambled, but I hope my points are clear.

NewWings4MeNow

[May]

What I ment by "know it all" is someone who doesn't know much about anything, but thinks that they know or someone who might know some things about something but goes around being arrogant about it.

[TXGal]

LOL !  I love this topic !!  My Nsis is a "Better than you" type.... anything you mention, she's an expert, has "read an article" about, "saw a 60 minutes show about" etc..... 


and yes, we had a man at my old work who was a know it all... it was like at lunch he was the "big brother" and the 3 of us women were his "Little sisters"... he had advise about everything.... we even did a "test", yes, in good humor, we plotted to change the subject and see if Jeff could keep up... and he did !  He was amazing!!!  .... started talking about water heaters... he knew it all and told us all about them, then someone changed the subject to outside water sprinkler systems, he has one and again told us all about it, thinking of putting in a garden, he knew all about mulch and peet moss ... then I changed the subject to kitchen cabinets and wanting to remodel, counter tops, flooring, wall paper, paint... he knew it all !  Even giving names of flooring and names of paint which are "the best"....  at the end of lunch, when he walked out of the lunch room, we all just looked at each other and died laughing !!!   

[inflatedheart]

Yes, yes, yes! This is totally my Nsister and NF! N's have to be know-it-all's. They're perfect, right? 

I can definitely say that I was a know-it-all before I started T. I felt like my real abilities and knowledge were not enough to elicit validation from other people. It took me a long time to stop fibbing and feel comfortable with who I was, flaws and all.

LOL !  I love this topic !!  My Nsis is a "Better than you" type.... anything you mention, she's an expert, has "read an article" about, "saw a 60 minutes show about" etc..... 


and yes, we had a man at my old work who was a know it all... it was like at lunch he was the "big brother" and the 3 of us women were his "Little sisters"... he had advise about everything.... we even did a "test", yes, in good humor, we plotted to change the subject and see if Jeff could keep up... and he did !  He was amazing!!!  .... started talking about water heaters... he knew it all and told us all about them, then someone changed the subject to outside water sprinkler systems, he has one and again told us all about it, thinking of putting in a garden, he knew all about mulch and peet moss ... then I changed the subject to kitchen cabinets and wanting to remodel, counter tops, flooring, wall paper, paint... he knew it all !  Even giving names of flooring and names of paint which are "the best"....  at the end of lunch, when he walked out of the lunch room, we all just looked at each other and died laughing !!!   

[CZBZ]

Dear May,


Ah gee, what a topic this morning! My family is visiting from out-of-state this Easter week-end and we had a full day together yesterday (which is why I'm isolating in my office on the computer and even chose to skip church with them--a weekly requirement for membership in my family. LOL) I have been accused of being a know-it-all--by the family know-it-all no less---but the difference is: I know a lot. She listens to talk radio and I read research books.

At first, it hurt my feelings because a know-it-all to me is what you wrote: "someone who doesn't know much about anything, but thinks that they know or someone who might know some things about something but goes around being arrogant about it."

I am an avid learner, always have been and this trait-of-mine continues to keep me passionate about learning new things, even as I age. I learned something new only recently: Most people don't want to know what they don't know. After realizing the profundity of that insightful truth one lousy afternoon when my sister accused me of being a know-it-all, my familial relationships have gone much much better.   They really don't want to know the facts.

When they are talking about (or ruminating about) someone's peculiar behavior and they start speculating on the 'cause', I smile and nod. They don't want to know it's likely a sign of PTSD or maybe Autism or even ADHD and the person needs to see a mental health specialist not their local religious leader.

As far as N-know-it-alls though, they really GOT to me for a long, long time and here's why: my assumption was that they had a solid basis of knowledge behind their pontifications. I wouldn't even thing of saying blah-blah without more study and research than a half-hour with Rush Limbaugh. This is how narcissists have pulled the wool over my eyes. I assumed they had a solid foundation behind their 'ten sentences' and basically, there wasn't any more to their story than ten sentences.

As you wrote though, you can tell the difference between a kNow-it-all and a knows-a-lot like myself by OUR reactions! Always looks for the hypersensitivity with narcissists. If someone corrects me, I quite honestly and sincerely thank them and then ask for references I should study. This is a crucial distinction.

When you see the narcissist's aggressive reaction to criticism, you will also notice normal people's reactions to them which is key, too! Normal people, without even realizing what they are doing, PROTECT THE NARCISSIST. They sense (in their imaginations!) the narcissist's vulnerability/fragility and try to intervene to protect the N. I've watched for this reaction in normal people and without FAIL, they will stick up for the kNow-it-all and chastise the knows-a-lot. This is because they assume the N is covering up for his or her low self-esteem by acting like an arrogant kNow-it-all which is NOT true. Narcissists act like kNow-it-alls because they BELIEVE they do.

If a narcissist has one fact about ADHD, they know everything about ADHD. They can't just know one fact. It's part of their superiority complex: they cannot admit that someone other than themselves, might actually know MORE than they do! Even professionals! Ever hear a narcissist say, "I know more than that idiot therapist! I know more than my stupid professor! I have more smarts in my little finger than the President of the United States!" That's the breath-taking arrogance of the kNow-it-all narcissist.


Hugs,
CZ

[Imogene]

Well, I can be a know it all and presumptuous and all around socially awkward.  It comes from a desire to fill silences and get approval.  This is annoying, for sure.  I have such a strong tendency not to want to be engulfed by other people's vulnerability, that I preach to them rather than just empathizing.  What makes me not a narcissist is that I can see the other person's reaction and know that I am being out of line and moderate my response or catch myself later and apologize for not being sensitive to what they needed

What my husband and brother and mother and other narcissistic people I know do is voice strong, unassailable opinions about (a) things they know nothing about and (b) that are not worth having a strong opinion about.  My husband told my best friend that she could not possibly like a certain brand of potato chips because they were more greasy than another brand that she claimed not to like on account of their being too greasy.  She was, like, can't I just eat the potato chips?  Another woman we know used to walk out of the room sometimes when my husband started in with his strong opinions about meaningless things.  It never occurred to me that this was narcissistic, or particularly aggressive, until he started using this technique to railroad me.  It is very offensive.  So is the habit my mother has of breaking into a conversation about, say, politics--which she cares nothing about--and giving a discourse on her solution to the Mideast peace process. 

What makes these things narcissistic is they are both egregious conversation filler with NO regard for audience other than to make people submit to the will of the person speaking.   

[Dandelion]

We can say that N are always know-it-all's but know it all's are not always N's?!

CZ please do not be affected by their ignorance. You know a lot and it's so great that you are knowledgehungry - don't feel bad for using your skill and resource to make the most of life!!!

We have a saying in Danish: "Hovel berries are sour, said the fox! (He couldn't reach them!)" That's what Google translate makes it into at leaset - maybe you have something similar in English...

Mette

[CZBZ]

Hi Dandelion! We say, "Sour grapes". The fable is about the fox who couldn't reach the grapes on the vine and so, he said they were 'sour' and not worth eating anyway. ha! Such a human thing to do, isn't it?!

I don't get upset with family members at this point, though. It took me a helluva long time to figure out what was going on in my family-of-origin and my family-of-creation, though. For a know-it-all, I sure don't know much. ha!

My long-term relationships with several narcissists, keep me humble. I had no clue...none at all.

In my family at least, people avoid knowing the 'truth' because it's frightening to them...or they fear losing control. I have to be very very creative getting the message across without triggering their reactions.


Hugs,
CZ

[Dandelion]

So cool that you have a similar thing!!! I will remember that "Sour grapes" - it's very usable

Thanks! I really need to go to New York again this fall for black friday. My english is so much better after I found this board  
I often read posts out loud to exercise my spoken english as well and it works wonders!

Mette

[Scribbles]

We can say that N are always know-it-all's but know it all's are not always N's?!

I like that one. I know a know-it-all or two who aren't N. Their behavior is annoying, but they're not NPD - they're just, well, know-it-alls!

[CZBZ]

"and giving a discourse on her solution to the Mideast peace process." ~Imogene

LOL...after spending the evening with relatives last night, your comment made me laugh out loud! We should set up a camera in my sister's dining room and 'let it roll'...what a documentary that would be! While conversations drifted from God's truth to Politics and Sports, I remembered this thread. It definitely came to my rescue, bringing the topic of evolution to a screeching halt when I deftly changed the subject rather than deliver a dissertation on current evolutionary theory.   Seriously! It helped to think about how "I" am perceived by family members when I tell them what they don't want to know. I forced my mouth to stay shut and then reminded myself that THEY had access to the same information I have access to, which means: they don't value the information or they'd read it, right? That helped me let go. They can watch Discovery Channel, too.  

The desire to give them accurate information is similar to 'wanting to help the poor widdle narcissist' be a better person. The narcissist has access to the same information we have but wow, look who values that information enough to read it, study it, and integrate it into their lives? Not the N! Well, in a similar vein, it's the same thing with my family. They're smart folks but shite, they already know everything there is to know, so why bother learning something that they don't want to know?

Anyway, this is my point after-the-Easter-feast: it occurred to me that "I" have been accused of being a know-it-all by people who are PROJECTING. Wow...I kinda laughed out loud when realizing that becasue the ONLY people in my whole life who have EVER accused me of being a know-it-all are: family members and my X-husbaNd. My college professors only a few years ago and any person I've worked with on various projects have all told me I'm too humble. My own two kids have never said I was a 'know-it-all'---waht they say is that they LOVE talking to me because I know-a-lot.

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO...I worked out another trigger and another false introject yesterday so thank you May, for starting this thread. I am accused of being a know-it-all by people who believe they know-it-all and my contradictory evidence only increases their defenses. Next thing you know, they see ME as the know-it-all when the truth is that I am broad-minded and open to new information---even contradictory information.

I don't know if some of you have had the same experience with family members or n-partners.  


Hugs,
CZ

[talia]

I learned something new only recently: Most people don't want to know what they don't know. CZBZ

Oh boy, this thread really struck a chord with me. It's been really difficult navigating the topic of religion with my half-brother. CZ, you put into words my own conclusions. It's taken me months to try to figure out what's really going on and you just captured it in words...

A little background- a few years ago my OCD brother sunk his teeth into fundamentalist beliefs which I do not agree with. He will not allow us to simply agree to disagree. Like a dog on a bone, he will not stop. The conversations have turned hurtful. As with any other subject or interest my brother becomes involved with he focuses on it intensely. Whether it's sport's statistics or bible quotes, my brother will become an expert. His memory is uncanny. During our last conversation when he would not drop the subject to keep peace, it finally dawned on me that there is some kind of payoff for him in maintaining his rigid belief that he is right at all cost.

My brother has been experiencing panic attacks(perhaps, PTSD?) the past few years. Recently, so severe that he went to the ER because he was so frightened fearing he was going to die. I know my brother had a rough childhood and there's no way he escaped unscathed. Also, in the past 2 years he lost his mother(my wicked step-mother) and his brother(my other half-brother. All to say, I believe there are some psychological issues my brother hasn't dealt with or doesn't want to acknowledge. I believe his intense focus on certain subjects is a way to distract or fill a void, plus that's how his OCD brain works.

in this case(?), I think what my brother doesn't want to know is what he doesn't know is going on at an unconscious(?) level. Hope that makes sense!? I would really like for him to examine the whole picture. For his sake, and mine, too. It has pained me because of the abusive nature of his need to be right I have set a boundary. No more discussions without an apology for crossing the lines. So far, two weeks have gone by with no apology. I understand he doesn't get why I've done that. It hurts.

Thanks for reading...I think I've strayed onto another tangent of the same topic. I don't know how to get through to him. Establishing boundaries is SO not easy with a highly defended person. I would welcome suggestions.

These people can dish it out but  can't take it when it comes back to them. What really ticks me off are the enablers around them. When you say something back to these people(whatever they are dishing at the time), the enablers act as though you have no right to stand up for yourself. May

May, I've experienced this, too. And it hurts when the enablers are family members.

talia

[Julia]

XNs family are all know-it-alls, in every sense of the word.  They are quite intelligent and well-educated, so it is not all show. In fact they know so much that they do not need to listen to us in-laws. They will talk at length with each other, or with high status individuals, or with elderly old friends of the family (and be sweet and humble to these people). But if I were to start to say what I think about the health care crisis, or if they were looking at a pretty rock and wondering what type it is, and I were to chime in, (I majored in Geology), they would literally walk out of the room, change the subject, start digging in their purse, or something. Absolutely zero chance to say something intelligent. If I volunteered to drive them somewhere, or clean up after dinner, etc, then they will talk to me. They really did treat me like a servant, but I am pretty much NC with all of them, so not an issue anymore.  I interpret all this behavior as N, rather than label it know-it-all.

One time an in-law brought in a difficult math puzzle and everyone started doing it, (individually), and I got the answer first, and pretty quickly. The in-law was congratulatory but everyone else went into a weird silence, or said I must have seen it before, etc. No way could these Dr.s just say "alright Julia!" They all quit trying right then because they might not get the solution, or would take too long, and they absolutely refused to be in a losing position to me, a homemaker. The only exception was one nephew, who is an upstanding young man, and was even then, in his teens. I could see him changing his opinion of me, and he has maintained that improved opinion over the years. Smart is very, very important to these people, obviously. It is not so important to me, btw.


My Ndad is more of an in-your-face know-it-all. He used to call me a communist and push every Rush Limbaugh factoid down my throat, just because I vote Democrat. I have not uttered a single intellectual opinion/fact in front of him for about 20 years. If he starts in on an intellectual/political discussion, I stop him and say "remember, we have different opinions about this, we should just drop this topic." If he wants to talk to me about some new gadget, movie, restaurant, whatever, I listen but do not join the conversation. I learned long ago that it wasn't worth it to say a single word other than "Oh, really? This has been my version of very LC/ Hallmark r/s with him. I literally have said nothing but Hi dad, Bye dad, and Oh, really?, or variations on these, for 20 years.

Julia

[too_many]

All the males in my family are kNow-it-alls, but I'm rarely tempted to even try and offer another viewpoint to any of them.  I'm still reeling from having come home from college sophomore year to the one brother's I thought I had some basis for looking up to's laughing and telling me, Didn't I know that the Holocaust never happened?? 

I had just mentioned having taken a Special Topic class on it!  I spent at least five hours asking for his evidence and trying to reason with him, but you can't.  He might be an even bigger N than my dad now, but once upon a time, he really did have at least some empathy - it's so upsetting.  Over the last decade and a half he has gone from saying, "The only thing that I've ever wondered about Mom was why did she ever marry Dad?" to last Christmas: "Come on, Dad can't be that bad if Mom married him, can he?"

He lived at home the longest of any of us, until he was 32 (vs. 29 for N-bro#1), quit his job in a huff two years ago, didn't even look for work, and now has moved in with our brother, claiming to be broke, and thinks that paying $100 rent while unemployed should be more than sufficient. And he may be planning to ask me for money...

I seriously used to tell him (and he wondered why), "Now, you're going to stay in college, right? And when you graduate, you're going to move out, and actually get a job with your degree, right?  Because if you do it, and I do it, then the girls will know that they can too, and [sibs #1 and #2] are just aberrations..." And I thought I was probably worrying for nothing - because he did have a full academic scholarship at the local uni - it just made me feel better to keep spelling out 'the plan'...

(It turned out to be sibs #4, 5, and 6 who became the aberrations by getting out early and staying out of that house for good.)

too_many

[monique94550]

I believe his intense focus on certain subjects is a way to distract or fill a void, plus that's how his OCD brain works.

in this case(?), I think what my brother doesn't want to know is what he doesn't know is going on at an unconscious(?) level.

Talia, at first I was going to write that I agree that your brother is intensely focusing on these external issues so that he doesn't have to look at his internal issues.  Then it hit me that maybe he has Asperger syndrome to some degree (from Wikipedia: People with Asperger syndrome often display behavior, interests, and activities that are restricted and repetitive and are sometimes abnormally intense or focused. They may stick to inflexible routines, move in stereotyped and repetitive ways, or preoccupy themselves with parts of objects).  I don't know.  What do you think?


About the "know it all" topic in general, I'm smiling right now because my son told me the other day that he wasn't looking forward to having dinner at his dad's house, because his dad had invited over a friend of his that my son doesn't like.  I'll call him "Ronald."  The day afer the dinner, I asked my son how it went, and he said, "I really don't like Ronald.  He thinks he knows everything.  He asked me where I wanted to go to college, and I said somewhere in New England, and he said, 'No, you have to go to school in this state because it's cheaper.'  Then he asked me what I wanted to do for a living, and I told him I wanted to be a psychologist, and he said, 'No, you need to go to medical school and become a doctor.'"  As for me, I don't like Ronald either, because he is an arrogant know-it-all.  I'm just glad my son saw that, as opposed to believing the crap that Ronald was shoveling his way.  I'm tempted to call or email Ronald and tell him to keep his opinions to himself as they relate to my son, but I have a feeling I don't need to do that.

Monique

[talia]

Monique

Wow, that's an interesting observation you made. I would never have thought about Asperger's. I'm not too educated about it. Since you mentioned it, I looked at the traits/characteristics and,yes, it seems my brother does exhibit a few. This is out of my league for sure, so I couldn't/wouldn't be able to know with any certainty. I know my brother sought treatment for the OCD issues, but from what I gather it was focused solely on that and he was given medication. Again, with the latest panic attack issues, he was given medication without any delving into any underlying causes. My next question is, should I now excuse crossing the lines because, perhaps, he's missing the social clues as in really doesn't get it and never will? Definately food for thought.

ps. Love the story about your son. He knows exactly why he doesn't like Ronald. It would be great if we(generalizing, as I know you do) would allow kids to trust their perceptions and not attempt to talk them out of them...The whole thing about validating and allowing them to trust their gut,perceptions...Know what I mean?

talia
 

[CZBZ]

Slight detour:

People with Asperger's Syndrome are often without 'guile', meaning they are fairly innocent and easily manipulated because they lack social intelligence. They are smart-off-the-charts (not always) but frequently being of higher intelligence than average. My nephew has Asperger's, for those who may not know and he's lived with me since he was five years old. He's 19 now. That's a lot of Asperger's history.

We recently found a support group (yea, you know I'd be looking, right?). We meet once a month at our local library. I can tell you that the people with Aspergers have a lot of crossover characteristics and if you'd been there, Talia, you could have picked out the Aspies from the "neurotypicals'. One of the young men has lived in his parent's basement his whole life---he's 35 now and never dated. People with Aspergers have a difficult time managing life on their own---depending of course, on the degree of autism. My nephew may never be on his own, in fact, we're expecting for him to live with us for as long as he wants. At this point, he does NOT want to leave so there ya go.  That's not typical of 19 year olds and this kid is handsome enough to be a runway model. He has never dated and doesn't even care about dating. Just give him a computer. ha! (My son is very much like this. I'm sure autism runs in our family).

Aspies, at least from my limited interaction, are very lovable. A little distant and odd and usually out-of-sync socially but they're happy and KIND. Other people have said the same thing, how 'KIND" people with Aspergers are. However, there's always that bugaboo called  'comorbidity' so you can't make Universals entirely. My guess though is that if your brother had been able to finish school, gain a skill, get along with coworkers, earn an income, live on his own or create a family that's stable, he likely doesn't have Aspergers.


Hugs,
CZ

[Retired Cornfield]

I am reading all of this and smiling because I know we all do understand the problem so well, and are astute about recognizing when to go forward and when to stop the process.  We have learned when the situation is not worth pursuing, and we understand why.  That is a great skill to have learned in our lives as survivors and thrivers.

But I am thinking we wouldn't  be quite so miserable sometimes if we weren't such "understand it alls."  LOL

Now that we know, and we have learned, we adjust to what we know is possible and let the rest go.  For instance, I knew that I couldn't get anywhere with a conversation with Late Husband, so I politely left the room.  I have learned the futility of having a worthwhile conversation with my sister, so she avoids me!.  She knows she isn't going to get a win anytime soon.  Once in a while I can connect with a friend and have trust.  It is a wonderful feeling and something I strive to achieve.  No, I don't give up easily because people are all that we have.  Retired Cornfield

[talia]

Thank-you, CZ It's not sounding like my brother has Asperger's from what you've just described.

talia
 

[smp]

This might be off topic, but...it brought up a strong memory. n's son (sorry, but he really is an idiot - I even banished him from my home) used to get really mad and yell at me that I thought I was so smart and perfect, then he would start on all the ways I wasn't perfect. I could not get n to control him. The last year of my imaginary marriage (!) n started to say the same thing to me- and my response to him? You've been hanging around your son too much.

I know my sister used to complain about my vocabulary during and after college, said I used big words to make myself feel more important. I love my sister dearly, but we are not close. I was raised in a highly opinionated, controlling family, and being the baby, I used to just back down because I was not interested in being in the middle of it. Now, I just ignore it - speak my peace when I need to, and stay away as much as possible -  (yeah, I see the pattern)  One of my dad's sayings was - Never argue with a fool, anyone watching won't be able to tell the difference.
I use the "how important is it" from alanon quite a bit.

[JennyWren]

"But I am thinking we wouldn't  be quite so miserable sometimes if we weren't such "understand it alls."  LOL" - Retired Cornfield

Oh..TOO TRUE!!

Of the Ns in my husbands FOO, his brother is the stand-out champion of the Know-it-alls. He is the "golden child" and has never been wrong about anything in his whole life. His wonderful intellectual capacity is grounds for continual worship for the entire family. One small problem. He has never had an independent thought in his entire life! Oh sure, he can spout form books and documentaries. He is pretty convincing...but he has all the brain-agility of a sick newt. And that`s being generous.

One carefully placed fact would slay him instantly. But I would be punished for it for the rest of the time, every time I spoke.

My NH considers his opinions as facts. And he gets his opinions from his brother. The fountain of all knowledge. He does not even know what car he wants to buy until he has discussed it with his brother.


On the subject of Asperger`s syndrome (which my nephew has) as I understand it, the autistic spectrum stretches from one extreme to the other.....and we all lie along it somewhere.....Asperger`s being a point, or range of behaviours along that spectrum. I only mention this, as Know-it-all (mentioned above)`s wife once phoned me (unheard of) and wanted to talk about autism and Asperger`s, because she felt Know-it-all displayed many such characteristics. She saw his inability to relate to people, and his tendency to operate by a set of rules rather than instinct in social situations as indicative. We have never discussed NPD.

[CZBZ]

I have read articles (try using google) about confusing NPD with Aspergers and it makes me shake my head a little. I've lived with an Aspie and a Narcissist and there's a marked distinction between them. I wonder sometimes if the word "Narcissist" has become so pejorative that people TRY to force-fit someone into an Asperger category instead because in some circles, Aspergers is not considered a 'disorder'. More or less a Different Way of thinking, perceiving and behaving. One woman in our group has a son who is low-functioning and she resents the idea that her son is not disabled. It's controversial, for sure. I can see both sides.

Aspergers people may be 'rigid' and dogmatic, understanding the facts but missing the meaning entirely. They can quote facts and statistics and trivia details but they can't figure out how to put those facts together and create a normal life. BUT the one distinction that holds true in MY experience is this:

Narcissists SEEK attention and adoration. They are very clever about disguising their true intentions. They are adept at manipulating people's feelings to get what the N wants. Narcissists prefer adoring attention, even fawning; and they will perceive how to gain/maintain power or superiority in EVERY relationship, even a group.

Aspies do NOT seek attention and adoration. They cringe from the spotlight and they are not clever about disguising their true intentions (which is: tell everyone their logic is screwy which it is of course because being human means not being a robot, LOL). They are NOT adept at manipulating people's feelings to get what they want and they would rather sit in their room all day on a computer than have people 'fawning' all over them. They are oblivious to power dynamics in any group or relationship.

I could easily imagine someone with Aspergers being targeted by a narcissist.

BUT, here's another possibility worth thinking about:

If someone with Asperger's Syndrome grows up in a household that punishes/rejects them for being 'different' and consistently humiliates the child for their Odd/Quirky behavior, they might very easily adapt to their environment with narcissistic defenses. If those defensese are not ameliorated as they mature, I can definitely see how they could develop a narcissistic personality disorder. This is what I believe happened to my nephew's father. He started out with Aspergers and ended up with a personality disorder because he did not have the parental support he needed. Gee, we only recently defined Aspergers.

But, and I've seen this too in my cyber-travels:

People will accept the Asperger diagnosis assuming that means their narcissism is not so bad. They minimize the narcissism that has developed over the years and excuse their behavior as 'autistic'. Well, i can see why people do that because it gives them hope and maybe allows them to better cope with that person.

I have been very consistent about teaching my nephew to empathize and dig in deep for whatever 'feelings' he can find. I'm a good parent for him but that's because I read and learn and try to counter his narcissistic tendencies. Thank goodness for access to psyche information.


Hugs,
CZ


P.S. Here's a story the therapist told my nephew and me during a counseling session. He said he once had a girlfriend with Asperger's Syndrome and one evening, when he was alone in his house and thinking about her, he called on the phone.

"I was sitting outside on the veranda staring up at the beautiful, full moon and I thought about you. I miss you."

And she said, "Well, technically, it's not a full moon."

THAT is Asperger's. Any narcissist worthy of his name, would TARGET those sentimental emotions and exploit the sensitive person to serve himself. He would not ruin the 'moment' with facts about full or crescent moons. hahaha!!

(my nephew's favorite two words are: "Well, technically"...................)