a bad day for projections

[Imogene]

As I wrote in another thread, my husband is dictating the terms by which he provides support to me post-separation.  On the one hand he supports my desire to go back to school so I can have some job skills, but on the other hand he is barking at me that I should just go get a job.  On the one hand he plans to be very generous, because he's "not an azzhole," but on the other he is uses psychological terrorism to punish me for the sin of no longer mirroring his false self.  Last night he told me that he would have "to think about taking my daughter away from me" if I didn't plan to get a job.  First of all, he's insane.  He thinks I'm not planning to earn money, ever.  I don't know how to defend against that.  He seems to think that I was supposed to be earning money the whole time we were married.  He can't seem to understand that, instead of earning money, my plan had been to go back to school and get a degree for the pleasure of doing something I enjoyed and to get back into a writing community.  That was actually what I was preparing to do as late as January, trying to meet a March deadline for applications.  I was finally going to spend some of our money doing something for myself.  We do not need the extra income.  Moreover, until this year we lived abroad in the summers because he earned a stipend at a foreign university.  This is all his attempt to revise history by making me look like a deplorable freeloader, instead of his wife of 14 years and the mother of his child.  What's awful is I don't feel good about not developing a creative writing career of some sort.  But that's a sense of personal, not financial, failure.  So his attacks hurt me on that level as well. 

This morning he told me that I "want to make all this 100% his fault," that I am "psychologically and emotional abusive," and that I "steal his emotions."  I had therapy today, and my therapist was, like, Say what? about the last retort.  I told her that I have just stopped trying to apologize for and address my wrong-doing in the marriage, because he cannot bear responsibility for any of what he is doing, and it's like shooting my foot every time.

Blah, blah, blah--I know.  My therapist said, "You can't keep going back to him thinking you are going to get an empathetic response; you're just reliving your family traumas." 

True enough.  This whole fight started because I wanted to ask him about the summer.  We were supposed to go on a trip and now there is a six week hole in the middle of the summer, and it is late to sign her up for camp.  I know none of this will surprise anyone here--just venting, really.   

[JennyWren]

hi Imogene....HE`s off again then!

Keep hold of what YOU know...and ignore his inadequacy driven blithering if you can.

You know you have realistic plans to work on your terms. This is your life, and he has no right to dictate how you chose to earn your living. (My NH told me when I was turned down from my first job interview in 14 years, that if I couldn`t get a job I wanted...I had better hurry up and get one that I didn`t want....as he is not my worker bee!! Bzzzzzzz!)

The role you have taken in looking after the family counts just as much as it ever did. He is just mad because he can not call the shots any more. I am guessing maybe he knows you feel insecure (understandably) about your future finances, and is picking a fight where he can see some vunerability...and the small inevitable bit of control he still has.

Keep strong Imogene (I am talking big....but just put me in front of my NH and it`s gibbering idiot time for me still. I don`t know how you are staying sane, but more power to you. Keep going. This WILL end!)

[Imogene]

Thanks, Jen.  I needed that.  This is probably the worst I've felt in the whole experience.  Ever since he got back from the last business trip I've been filled with dread, and I spent most of my therapy session crying and wondering if I should just give him custody of my daughter, since he seems hell bent on ruining my life.  (I won't, of course.)  I wish I could feel more sure of his narcissism, even, but all I can do is feel bad right now. 

[confused]

UGH!

All I really know, is that IF IT FEELS BAD, then it IS BAD! It doesn't even MATTER what it is (ie NPD, BPD, or any other variety of problem).

You don't deserve it, can't fix it, didn't create it.

(as an aside, JennyWren, of COURSE he is not your worker bee; all workers are FEMALE (figures, right?))

[monique94550]

First of all, he's insane.  He thinks I'm not planning to earn money, ever.  I don't know how to defend against that.  He seems to think that I was supposed to be earning money the whole time we were married.  He can't seem to understand that....So his attacks hurt me on that level as well. 

I am "psychologically and emotional abusive," and that I "steal his emotions." 

"You can't keep going back to him thinking you are going to get an empathetic response; you're just reliving your family traumas." 

Imogene, there's no way you can defend against insanity.  The "psychologically and emotionally," and "steal his emotions," comments sound like 100% projections of the exact things he is doing to you.  I think you will agree that you are definitely not psychologically abusing him or emotionally abusing him or abusing him in any other way, although you would probably like to, and that's only normal.  And he knows your "button" (your Achilles heel) is your writing career, or lack thereof.  The fact that he doesn't hesitate to use that to hurt you is deplorable, considering that you've been focusing your energies on taking care of his home and child.  He knows full well you're responsible and capable of earning a living.  I think he's threatened by that.  At least that's my take on it.  Once I started to "get" my xNBF's tactics, they lost their power over me, and then I could just get disgusted at his evil, self-serving behavior.  (Although unfortunately I'm still fighting my addiction to him.)

You can't filter his behavior through your rational behavior colander.  It gives you the wrong answers.  Whatever he says, the opposite is 100% true.  Try that for awhile, and see how that works for you.

You're talented, loving, capable, intelligent woman.  Don't forget that.

Monique

[Imogene]

Thank, confused.  I know it doesn't matter in these times what the label is.  I just would feel I lacked a certain integrity were I writing about him on a board for narcissist survivors and he wasn't a narcissist.

[monique94550]

Imogene, you don't lack integrity.   

[Imogene]

And thanks, Monique.  I appreciate this validation.  Yes, he probably is using my vulnerability to hurt me.  It's good to be reminded of that. 

I've been so angry at him for years for withholding and, well, let's face it, LYING, that I have been verbally abusive.  I'll tell you the strangest part of last evening's discussion.  He said he was sorry for never having been honest with me about how he felt or what he wanted, but he couldn't help it because it was impossible for him to talk to me.  A few minutes later he was telling me I would just have to trust him, even though I had never trusted him in the past, something he had always resented.  I said, "Did you ever think that maybe I didn't trust you because you weren't being honest with me?"  He looked at me like I'd just said something totally irrational.  To him, trust and honesty are two completely separate things, like printed words on two separate pages.

[monique94550]

Imogene, I'm not sure I would characterize your reaction to years of lying as verbal abuse.  It sounds more like a rational reaction.

Impossible for him to talk to you, because he's not capable of having honest communication with anyone.  It's not about you.  It's about him.

Just my opinion.  These guys are such snakes when it comes to rationalizing their behavior and trying to make us feel responsible for it.

I'm getting angry.

Monique

[tango3]

Imogen
I have days when I wonder if N isn't really an N - it's very common to flip backwards and forwards - is he/isn't he.  FWIW I too never did a damn thing the entire 23 years of our marriage according to N:)  I'm really not sure what I did as apparantly I didn't cook, clean, do laundry, look after the kids, work part-time, work for him.  I think I was just floating around in the ether or something - who the hell knows?  So these accusations he's throwing at you are COMMON.  In fact reading your post and all things he's saying to you - well yep word for word that is what stbxN said to me. Why I can almost here his voice saying them!  I still have his e-mails where he called me an "emotional vampire" and how I "sucked the life out of him".  Oh I expect I was abusive too along with being a "cold, emotionless b*tch".

For me it's been over 2 years now,   StbxN, whether he is really an N or not - doesn't matter - he's not a good person and he never will be.  He can sling whatever accusations he likes at me, I know I'm a decent person, who has compassion, empathy, honesty, intergrity and loyalty - he has and is nothing.

[Kiki]

Imogene,

Oh, hon, I'm so sorry.  (That's supposed to be a comforting hug. Not creepy. Does it look creepy? Am I second-guessing myself? DANG my upbringing!!!!!)

I am sorry, though. It sounds like an awful situation. Your therapist is spot on, though. Your N isn't going to understand. Ever. Ever. Ever. And it's the hardest part of the journey, the acceptance of that.

Ns will always turn it around and make YOU be the crazy, messed-up, cruel one. Always. When I was a kid, my mother beat the snot out of me, and later, when I tried to talk to her about it, she was all pissed that I was trying to make her feel bad. Because clearly an 8-year-old cowering in the corner of the bathroom is mean and selfish, while the adult beating her with a brush is the victim.

It's that kind of insane thinking that Ns have. Logic will never appeal to them.

I think you're amazing for dealing with all this craziness and still trying to get better, get yourself back, dealing with it. As much as it hurts now, as hard it all is, at least you're fighting the urge to give up and keep taking the crap from him. It's HUGE. The decision to stop taking the abuse is enormous. You're awesome for doing so ....

(hugs)

[Dandelion]

I am so sorry that you're going through this!

I am glad we don't have that crazy allemony system here in Denmark. There is no "wife-support" as wives are seen as grownups who can take care of themselves. There is childsupport, but most of the time court will try to get the parents to work together. If they can't there is a rule of how much either has to pay the other out of their pay, so there's no "taking 50% of either his or her paycheck". (I have a friend in Dallas who experiences this from an XNW).
When nothing else is written in a prenup, everything will simply be split 50/50 in a divorce.

The american system makes it legal and accepted that a man should take care of a woman like she is some kind of item or prized possession and that makes her dependant on him which is not only old fashion, but degrading and crippling. Women all over take shite from their XH because of this crazy system, because they depend on them 

You're right in the middle of exactly that - being dependent on a sick bazturd because of this system. It is so wrong =(

Hold on to yourself Imogene - what you know is right and will carry you through this ugly thing

Mette

[tango3]

The american system makes it legal and accepted that a man should take care of a woman like she is some kind of item or prized possession and that makes her dependant on him which is not only old fashion, but degrading and crippling. Women all over take shite from their XH because of this crazy system, because they depend on them 

I don't think it's degrading or crippling at all!  Originally I'm from UK - I supported my first husband and my son quite capably in the UK.  Had a good job and probably, if I'd have stayed in UK I would have ended up going to law school.  However I met N and moved to US.  I had two more children immediately and we moved into the country 80 miles from NYC.  There are NO decent jobs in this area, N worked 70+ hours a week and was never home so I was left looking after three children and doing everything else - didn't leave much time for a career for me!  The nearest place to get any kind of a well paying job would have been NYC - a 2 hour commute one way - which would give me a minimum of a 12 hour work day - not much time to take care of children or anything else.  Would have been doable if I'd had a husband that believe in sharing the work load - but I didn't. 

Once I turned 40 the only job I could get in this area was cleaning houses - hard work but I did it for 2 years, for $7 an hour and wrecked my hands in the process - I now have crippling arthritis.  StbxN on the other hand is worth over $5 million, he just bought himself a $20,000 boat (cash), drives $100,000 car and is living a great life.  So no I don't find it degrading that he should have to support me for the rest of my life. 

[Imogene]

What Tango said.  Mette, you have to understand that the American system is founded on individualism, not community.  We are actually a lot less SEXIST than Europeans on the whole.  But the culture and its attitudes promote the acquisition of wealth, not the stability of the family.  I know what I'm talking about.  Until now, I lived in Europe every summer.  I have seen both cultures and both economies at work first hand.  In Denmark there is welfare support, child care, community, and state mandated health care.  I bet there is low cost or free housewife job training (there is in Germany and the Netherlands).  We have none of that.  In the state I reside in, unfortunately (and here, every state has different laws), I am legally entitled to a 60-65% division of the assets and 1500 dollars a month in child support.  I cannot live within driving distance of my daughter's school (there is no public transportation) for less than 1200 dollars a month.  Health care just for me is 500 dollars a month.  Bills, food, incidentals--3000 dollars at least, and that is a best case scenario.  With the job skills I have and the state of our economy, I will not make it without retraining.  And how am I to afford that unless my husband pays spousal support?   

[Imogene]

Thanks everyone who wrote in. 

I faced some of these emotional issues with my narcissistic family, but with them the practical matter was more about setting boundaries (or having my brother not accept the boundaries).  This is so much harder to deal with, because I have to negotiate with my husband over financial issues and our daughter's care--and he won't enter a mutual space.  He sees compromise and negotiation as capitulation.  And he rejects out of hand any notion that I am competent.  CZ was saying in another thread, I think the one about narcissists calling US abusive, that often narcissistic spouses break from their partners when their partners make a bid for greater independence.  And that is truly what happened here.  I had developed a support network over in Europe, where we spent the summers, so that is the first thing he curtailed.  "We fight more over there," he said.  That was truly not my perception.  I was out doing things with other women and having fun more, but I thought that was mutual.  We had a much more extensive social life there.  But I could speak the language and negotiate the climate there, and he did always feel at odds, though he was working and had professional connections that balanced things out, or so I thought.  I was planning to go back to school and get an MFA degree.  I wanted finally to sell this house and move to a better neighborhood.  He agreed with all these things, but inwardly he was stewing and resentful and. . . . well, I'm just blabbing.  I guess panic is just going to come and go in waves for a while.   

[Dandelion]

I don't think it's degrading or crippling at all!  Originally I'm from UK - I supported my first husband and my son quite capably in the UK.  Had a good job and probably, if I'd have stayed in UK I would have ended up going to law school.  However I met N and moved to US.  I had two more children immediately and we moved into the country 80 miles from NYC.  There are NO decent jobs in this area, N worked 70+ hours a week and was never home so I was left looking after three children and doing everything else - didn't leave much time for a career for me!  The nearest place to get any kind of a well paying job would have been NYC - a 2 hour commute one way - which would give me a minimum of a 12 hour work day - not much time to take care of children or anything else.  Would have been doable if I'd had a husband that believe in sharing the work load - but I didn't. 

Once I turned 40 the only job I could get in this area was cleaning houses - hard work but I did it for 2 years, for $7 an hour and wrecked my hands in the process - I now have crippling arthritis.  StbxN on the other hand is worth over $5 million, he just bought himself a $20,000 boat (cash), drives $100,000 car and is living a great life.  So no I don't find it degrading that he should have to support me for the rest of my life. 

I totally get your point!
Seems your situation would be unbearable without support! It's really good that you can get some then since there is no pension for arthritis, right?

It is unfair that you endured being a housewife for so long while he was never home and I can see why you feel entitled to his money - in the first marriage you got screwed and likewise in the second, so in some way you feel you earned the right to his money - is that correctly understood?

Mette

[Dandelion]

What Tango said.  Mette, you have to understand that the American system is founded on individualism, not community.  We are actually a lot less SEXIST than Europeans on the whole. 

I think I understand that I stepped in a bees nest? I think it is best for me to leave the subject alone, since discussing politics and economics on a board is seldom constructive. I would LOVE to talk about it in real life to try and sort out differences and views, but it was wrong of me to express an oppinion about a system of a foreign country where I do not live.

I cannot live within driving distance of my daughter's school (there is no public transportation) for less than 1200 dollars a month.  Health care just for me is 500 dollars a month.  Bills, food, incidentals--3000 dollars at least, and that is a best case scenario.  With the job skills I have and the state of our economy, I will not make it without retraining.  And how am I to afford that unless my husband pays spousal support?   

I get a stomach ache when you write about that - your living expenses are crazy! My friend in Dallas and I compared expenses when he was here to see who pays most for health care, education etc. Actually it seemed like people in the US pays more for all those things - much more than what we pay more in taxes.
Just to take an example my tax is 40% after a deduction of $1.000 a month because I own a house. But I get free health care from cradle to grave no matter what is wrong with me. Most educations are free and we get around $1000 in student pay every month to cover living expenses.
US citizens are worse off even though they pay a lower tax from their income. What is fair and what is not is off course a web of things that are hard to seperate but I still think it sounds like you are in a really tough spot - and that really must be so tough for you. I'm thinking of you and hope the waves will give you peace of mind for a while.
Nothing can wreck us like financial worries =/

Hugs and thoughts
Mette

[Imogene]

Oh, Mette, don't worry!  I have conversations like this in Europe all the time.  There are misconceptions that go back and forth.  I find these cultural discussions intriguing and never take it personally even if I have a bold way of stating my opinion.  Also, where I used to live in Europe the men are very sexist, and the women treat them like spoiled children.  It was initially odd for me as an American to see the men and women leading such separate lives.  But where you are I know there is a lot more gender equality, probably more than in the States.  I'm just not as familiar with Denmark, having only been there as a tourist. 

[Julia]

Imogene,

((Hugs))

I hear you...My XN apparently thought I should have earned a living the whole marriage despite caring solo for three babies and the house and him working 60-70 hr weeks. And we, too, did not need the extra income. Also, we made a decision that I would stay home, can he even remember that?

I hear you. ...My biggest problem during the D and D was that he had so little respect for me he would not believe a single thing I said. This just floored me because I am a very honest person. I do not think I have ever once lied to XN, not during the marriage, not since. And it wasn't just about truthfulness, no, he decided I was totally incompetent also, so it wasn't worth listening to what I said. If I said anything (kid's homework assignments, house repairs, what my lawyer said, etc..) he didn't believe me, because if I said it, it must be nonsense. He had absolutely no reason to believe this.. others thought I was an extremely competent person despite huge stress from his MLC. But it was what he needed to rationalize his treatment of me, his D and D. Your XN is twisting things around, and it is crazy-making. The only reason it works at all is that you got used to thinking of it as love, since it was there from the start.

Here is my very best advice, Imogene, although it may seem impossible right now.  I have walked in your shoes, and I wish I had known this years ago:

Ignore what comes out of his mouth. In the silence, (ha! this is not easy, I know), that follows, do not create imaginary conversations or get in his head. His head is his, and it is a foul place. Reactivity (yours) is now the best way he has to emotionally abuse you. It is the way he keeps you down. It is a wrestling hold, an arm twisted behind the back.  The verbal abuse you slung at him..? Well, you were in a wrestling match, not a marriage, (although you didn't realize it at the time). It is no wonder you yelled at him as he body-slammed you, but that was a different round. In this round, the only way to win is to lift the rope and climb out of the ring. I don't necessarily mean not living in that house together, although that would be best. I mean don't listen to him. Don't weigh his words for truth, as if he was saying something truthful and heartfelt. No, he is just wrestling, going for the pin-down, as well as your attention.

Everything with Ns is always focused on getting our total attention - 1) by charming us at first, 2) making us work (HARD) to try to keep them happy during the marriage, and finally....3) keeping us reactive during the D and D and long afterward.

Perhaps, realistically, the best thing to do is to be over-the-top reactive for a while.. as in realize the full-on horror of the marriage in your therapy. But please try to work towards detachment, you deserve it. You loved him, you tried hard to make it work. That is all a gal can do. Faced with the horror of a husband saying things like "I may have to try to take our daughter away from you".... well, you just can't listen to people who say stuff like that. I know you  know this, and your therapist is saying a lot of this, but validation helps.

There is a lot you can do. Work on yourself: therapy, figuring out what program you would like to study for employment. If two years school is not possible... then how about a nine month medical tech program like phlebotomy? Good competent people can really rise in those professions, and pay starts at about $15/hr. If you can't afford a place, then how about finding a nice, but frail, elderly lady who wants someone to live-in free rent traded for some cooking and housework, so that she can avoid going to a nursing home? Someone who would like your d being there half the time. My point is that once you clear your mind from all his talk.... positive opportunities will come to mind. Please do think outside the box, because the box is way too small here in the USA for mid-life divorced SAHMs.

You can take charge of your life and get away from his words, his version of reality even in this horrible living together limbo, Imogene. Think of it as separation boundaries and all the advice we have given to Kiki applies to your situation. You could set up a care schedule for your daughter, 50/50 evenings and Sat /Sun. Be gone for his eves and weekend day. Just get the heck out of the house ( or out of his way) and move forward with your life, force him to move forward with his. Go to meet-up groups with women or Coda meetings, go to the library, go exercise. I totally get how stagnating it can be to have everything the same (living together) and yet...... so horrible. You can change things, if the current situation is not working well for you.  As for the 6 week summer vacation gap.... tell him you will take half of it, and make plans for you and d. Buy train tickets for a city-to-city tour and stay in youth hostels for cheap. Visit a friend, and base out of her house for 4 days. Find cheap tickets and go to Europe without him. Ha! Leaving him alone with your d for 2-3 weeks could send him over the top if he is as much like my XN as I think he is. It could really deflate his 50/50 bubble, as well as that threat to take her completely.


(Hugs),

Julia

[Imogene]

Thanks, Julia.

I always appreciate hearing from you, both because our situations have so much in common and because you have such a compassionate voice.  Your message definitely had a calming effect on me.  I am a person who despairs and then gets down to work, despairs and then gets down to work.  In this situation it is just going to take many cycles of this pattern before I can fully detach from my husband's abuse and feel comfortable living independently.

It's ironic that I can give very good advice to Kiki about dealing with her narcissistic family but not apply this to my own situation.  On the other hand, it took me years to detach from my mother.  Only now can I speak with her and not feel judged or minimized.  I had to have zero expectations for a long time and process A LOT of anger, then slowly I could take from her what she has to offer, which is not nothing.  It's just not what I needed as a child.  It's hard to describe the process, and I am always at a loss when people talk about visualizing boundaries and so on.  These quick methods probably work quite well for a lot of people, but they never worked for me. 

I am starting to realize just how much my relationship with my husband is like my relationship with my mother now that I have become his scapegoat, and I don't think it will take me years to detach from that.  The problem is, I have to deal with someone who is actively trying to punish me.  My family members are not vindictive.  They are quick tempered and not inclined to follow through once the anger expels.  There's a sadistic streak in my husband.  I don't think he's anti-social--he cares too much about his social and professional image, and he has worked hard to build his career--but he is mean and without remorse about his cruelty, and it's a disturbing characteristic to discover in someone you loved and thought you could trust. 

Anyway, thanks for all this good advice.  I feel better today, and it's largely because of the support I'm receiving on this board from all of you.   



   

[Julia]

Imogene, I am glad you are currently feeling more empowered. I think WoN helps speed the healing because of the validation (less self doubt) as well as the good advice, things to try. I found that talking out issues here helped me heal faster in therapy as well. I could describe the triggering event (something XN did), and how I had come to understand it (WoN). Then the therapist could talk me through understanding where the unreality - disconnect - hurtfulness of his actions came from as well as explaining how my new healthier reactions were growing... and it seemed to make a supportive mesh that screened out future BS of his from getting to me quite as much.

At first he would do stuff and I would run full speed into a brick wall of OMG - how could he really mean that?

Eventually, he would do even worse stuff, and I would be holding my nose thinking... there he goes again...

Stay strong,

Julia

[betterdays]

Imogene, N threatened me with the loss of my d, and it scared me to death, because my health concerns are real and documented.  He said he would prove I could not care for her, and in fact, there have been times when my mother had to help.  Imagine his surprise when d turned seventeen and  demanded his small, zippy little car upon getting her license, and refuses contact with him. 

Your fear of losing your child can be paralyzing, or minimal, depending on your N's ability to make good on it, but the threat is toxic and designed to hurt you.  Of course, the panic comes and goes, but it mostly goes when N goes. You are truly supported here, and the little money N will have to give you  can be supplemented.

If your register on Sittercity.com, and Care.com, there may be someone in your area who needs a companion.  I am tutoring and doing companionship work for handicapped and elderly people.  It pays more than child care, and all you need is references and to let them do a background check.

[Dandelion]

It's ironic that I can give very good advice to Kiki about dealing with her narcissistic family but not apply this to my own situation.     

Can I persuade you to celebrate it instead? I think we all do it, but what is celebratable (new word - I learned from the best  ) is that the knowledge is actually inside you. So you are not powerless, just unaware of how strong you are (Thank your N for that ).
The truth is not out there!

The truth is in here *points at self and makes voice deep*

Try to remember that every time you feel bad - it's just a matter of getting someone to help showing you where you have it stored inside you! 

[JennyWren]

"My biggest problem during the D and D was that he had so little respect for me he would not believe a single thing I said." - Julia

(In fact, I could comment all day about your post Julia, which has been really helpful to me too....so thankyou Imogene and Julia!)

The whole D and D thing and its sudden and complete turnaround in attitude is so disorientating. It is really useful for me to remember that it is a process in the Ns mind and not a comment on yourself. Which I had begun to lose sight of.

I guess that it is the only way an N can deal with a previously controlable obedient person that finds some strength to rebel a little. If they won`t conform....what a happy solution to just consider them an idiot.

Imogene...I also find myself prone to the "despair and then get down to work" process you describe. The despair bit is a horrible place, but it does seem to spur me into finding a solution. And as for your feeling surprised that you can offer such positive advice to Kiki, while finding it hard to action it in your own life.....I can only say that your clarity of thought is a very solid foundation for changing your own actions (should that be necessary) but that you have a lifetime of emotion and habit mixed up in there....and it is not always how we think that makes us react a certain way as much as how we feel. And that will take time I guess!

[peartree]

hey Imogene
hugs for you. god they are such projection experts aren't they ? any amount of self doubt they leap on it. to doubt the N-ism seems a normal part of the process for me anyhow. for me it was about hope i.e maybe he's not an a-hole, maybe i'm mistaken, but that seed of denial did stop me from making good choices for ME.
the way i got round it was thinking/remembering, if he's an N i have to just look out for me and to hell with him, if not an N and a nice guy underneath, then on some level he'll "get" why i am doing what i'm doing. either way you win and keep your integrity and self-esteem. hope that helps !
p x x x