Were the N's in your life miserly?

[inflatedheart]

Long story short, NM gets very sick and apparently money gets "tight". My NM/NF have been giving me a small amount of financial support since I had cancer. It is hard on my hubby to provide 100% and since I can't work much since my illness, the help has been welcome. Anyway, NM/NF send sappy, hand-written letter to us saying that they were broke, they will have giant medical bills once NM is out of the hospital and they can't afford to give us any more support. DH and I, feeling guilty, called immediately and said how sorry we were for burdening them and that we'll do anything it takes to become 100% financially independent. Now, this is a huge shock for us because my parents are independently wealthy and my father makes over $100K a year working in the weapons/military tech business (*shudder*).  They stop giving us money and DH takes on a new job in TX. We are currently in a marriage over a thousand miles apart. It is a lonely, frustrating and difficult life until we have enough money to make a permanant move this fall.

I go to my NM/NF house and lo and behold....a new 1966 corvette. Their plans this weekend? An island get away. What did we do that evening? Went out to dinner.

It is one thing to say that they didn't WANT to give us support anymore and its another to say that they're BROKE. If it were MY child, I would have sold my worldly luxuries (like the boat, the million dollar house, the other Corvette and Mercedes, the time share) before my kids had to scrimp and save every last penny to pay rent and buy groceries. What's worse is that they look down on my husband because he's "lower class". Uhm, excuse me? You STOLE that money from an elderly woman and stepped on people to get where you are today. My mother has never even had a real job in her life, living off her sugar-daddy husband.

This is the sort of thing that makes my blood boil.

[JennyWren]

My experience is that money is incredibly important to Ns. They love to buy themselves "the best". Then flaunt it about while telling stories of what a hard bargain they drove when they bought it. Even if it is a box of matches.

When it comes to using their ample funds to help others...well, in my experience that is when their money becomes real power. If they lend (they won`t give) then you OWE them. And even if you pay them back the next day, you owe them for their "being there for you".  If they decide in their wisdom that they will not help, they will tell you this is because you must learn to take care of yourself, or other such excuses for "tough love". And then you will owe them for teaching you such an important lesson.

That your Nparents are crying "We`re broke" really stinks. I can`t begin to imagine how they sleep at night knowing their refusal to help is causing you such difficulty, especially since your cancer must have made ANY normal human really value your life and happiness.

I suppose Ns are not likely to be asked for other kinds of help. But they are good at accumulating money, and this makes them feel big and clever.

I hope this tough time improves for you soon inflatedheart.

[tango3]

STXNH went on a $10,000 vacation in January, and just last month bought himself $20,000 boat - meanwhile he refuses to pay for his son's therapy and psychiatric visits (son is Bi-Polar) - although it would be a drop in the bucket for him.  ($30,000) would pay for 3 years of visits).  Instead I'm paying for them out of the very little money he sends me for support.  So no, not unusual - I mean let's get real here?  Why do something that is morally right and deny yourself life's pleasures?

[SusyP14]

So no, not unusual - I mean let's get real here?  Why do something that is morally right and deny yourself life's pleasures?

Amen.  #1 rule of Narcissism - it's all about them.  Never forget it because nothing else matters to them.  

Inflated Heart - Your illness and inability to work is of no concern to them as long as they can show off their toys.  You are just as much as an object to them as a new corvette.  But your cancer means that you have proven yourself to be a tad defective, which makes them feel bad, which means they had to buy a new toy to make themselves feel better.  It's really all your fault, see?  If you had not gotten ill, they would not need new objects and vacations to take their minds off of real life.  Life is better build around fantasty.

BTW, of course, you are not remotely defective.  I was just letting you know how they think.  Which has ZERO to do with reality and your worth.

[practicaljude]

Amen. #1 rule of Narcissism - it's all about them. Never forget it because nothing else matters to them.
Inflated Heart - Your illness and inability to work is of no concern to them as long as they can show off their toys.

Amen and awwee!  It’s easy to forget this.  It’s so important to lock this concept into our psyche and our hearts.
It’s easy to forget when we are the most vulnerable; they kick us to the curb.  It’s easy to forget when we are grieving; they’ll perceive it as weakness.  It’s easy to forget if when we are ill; they’ll perceive it as being flawed.  If we need to remember anything, I agree Suzy, it’s all about them and nothing else matters.

It boils down to painful acceptance. Their perception is you’re not worthy; you really do not even exist.

 
Jude

[Imogene]

Wow, Susy, what did you do?  Go and read my brother's diary?

[SusyP14]

Wow, Susy, what did you do?  Go and read my brother's diary?

I had to force myself to think like them because nothing made sense until I could do that.  I could never apply human logic and heart to their actions, so in order to protect myself I had to learn to program my mind to think like them (only when discusssing them of course).  Who wants a mind like that at any other time.  Horrors!

[confused]

Yup. My X was weird about money. On one hand he never let me pay for dinners out etc., when he was first courting me. Later he complained and wouldn't pay for  anything, and often said he didn't have any money, while at the same time he bought things he didn't need for himself. He NEVER bought me any kind of gift, ever.

"...well, in my experience that is when their money becomes real power." JW

Jenny Wren, this hit home. My X told me at some point that he couldn't let me pay for a small trip (to celebrate my birthday  ) because if I paid for it, I "would get to call the SHOTS." UGH! As I'm writing this, I again, realize how HORRIBLE he was/is. UGH!!!

[honeybearII]

To an N, money = power.  It is another way to have Power Over people and even if they are not wealthy, they feel a great need to control people by controlling access to money.

When exNH and I were first married....for quite a few years, in fact.....we had a business.  I use the word "we" with tongue in cheek since he would be quick to tell you it was HIS business since I was relegated to staying at home raising children.  I was supposedly supposed to manage the family finances since he was "so busy with all the business finances" but his way of controlling me and the money was to make me call him EVERY TIME I NEEDED HIM TO PUT MONEY IN THE BANK.  It was bizarre. How in the WORLD can you budget or pay bills or manage any kind of financial stuff if you never know when/if they will deposit money???  I would BEG him to pay himself a regular salary each week so I knew what I was dealing with, but he absolutely refused.  So every time I had to grocery shop or pay household expenses or take one of the children to the doctor I had to get him on the phone and ASK HIM to put money in the bank.  Sometimes he would "get around to it" that day, bus as often as not he would get home at 9 at night and it would be, "Oh, shiite....I forgot to go to the bank for you".

Of course, if it was necessary to pay a bill, shop, pay the doctor....whatever....I would have to write a check and sometimes, because he didn't follow through on HIS end and make a deposit, the check would bounce.  It was stupid, it was unnecessary, and then he would fly into a RAGE about what poor manager I was, how I spent money like a drunken sailor and how inept I was.  After a couple of these episodes, he would declare he was taking over the household accounts which of course ended up a total disaster with the power being cut off, or the phone not paid, or some other such incident because he was "too busy" to do what needed to be done.  Of course, since all of this was MY fault, I would have to load 3 babies in the car and drag myself to the power company or the phone company or the water company and stand in line and be humiliated and get them to turn it back on.

Looking back, I realize that even from the first years of the marriage he was setting me up to fail as a wife and mother and then he had the pleasure of making sure I felt stupid, dumb, and lazy.

This was the cycle for most of the 30 years we were married, and as I said, TOTALLY UNNECESSARY.  It was all about control and yet another way for him to make me feel "less than".  Interestingly, once I left him and had to manage on my own, I have NEVER had a late bill, had any utility turned off, have savings in the bank, and make a mortgage, car payment, etc. on a very small salary.  He was truly Idiot Boy.
Honey

[inflatedheart]

 You are just as much as an object to them as a new corvette.  But your cancer means that you have proven yourself to be a tad defective, which makes them feel bad, which means they had to buy a new toy to make themselves feel better.  It's really all your fault, see?  

This is such a good way of putting it. When I was actually in treatment, they put me in the spotlight, showered me with "support" and reveled in the attention I brought them. Now that I'm getting better and I'm still needing help, they are no where to be found. It does make sense. What is frustrating is that they are mocking my intelligence. You didn't think I would notice? And if I do say anything, they'll make it out to be a lesson of "tough love" or demand that I have no right to prod around in their finances. We've been in this place before and I hate it. It's only now that I'm realizing that it elicits some strong emotional reactions in me, which what I'm guessing they want. They want me to feel bad for being defective and broken, so they gaslight and say they're broke. Then they go and act totally the opposite.

This is the sort of stuff that I'm still trying to get a handle on. 

[NewWings4MeNow]

Hi Inflated,

To answer your title question, no, the male Ns in my life weren't miserly -- they made sure they personally lived very well and that trickled out to those around them who were "deserving", as long as they were deserving.  XNH lavished his adult FOO with home electronics gifts costing $hundreds, to which I wasn't accustomed.  Yet when XNSIL gushed over a cut velvet top that was $100+ and she didn't get it for herself, I bought it for her (because we could afford it) on the sly and sent it as a birthday gift through XBIL.  Usually holiday adult gifts were one item at reasonable price.  

XNH also always made sure he flew business/first-class and stayed at business class+ hotels using every trick, points, advantages, flirting, whatever.  

My cousin in the airline industry just about took gas when d was seven or so and she flew with XNH from CA to NY and told me she sat in coach alone while XNH moved and sat in first class.  (Yet another memory that she'd tell me today she'd never said.)

To the content of your message:

XNMIL made a HUGE deal about telling people how important she was in her field (as a therapist), when she'd been FIRED from the Masterson Institute (by the man himself) while I knew her and suffered a huge N injury at the time from which I don't think she ever recovered, so she turned, instead, to writing some of the darkest, most miserable human being poetry I've ever read in my life, and called herself a poet.  But I digress ....

XNMIL used to tell me how they had $1M in the bank for retirement.  As d grew and I asked her to retire so she could be a grandmother to d, she said they had to have $2M in the bank so she had to keep working.  Several years ago XFIL suffered a stroke from which he never recovered and he eventually died this past Christmas.  She had him live in their 1970s A-frame three-level mountain house (long ago paid for) out a one-lane forest road, they cut holes in the room door frames so he could get through in a wheelchair, and he eventually had his bed in their living room.  They'd talked for years about moving but always had excuses:  Cost of CA real estate to buy, that they'd benefited from Prop 13 low property taxes etc.  XNMIL always said she wouldn't live alone in that house but would move after he died.  In the last year+ of his decline I heard that they'd gone through all their money paying his medical bills (or so this was what d heard -- the reality is likely very different and was probably XNMIL's panic conversation), and that XNH was helping them pay their bills (again, unlikely since they'd both worked and she worked all her adult life making $100+/hour with clients).  

XFIL died now six months ago and I've never heard a peep that their house is for sale, that XNMIL is downsizing her lifestyle.  She told d, upon XFIL's death, that she'd be free to visit d more.  It's never happened.

The net of my message to you is that folks of their generation, prone to money miserliness and who have medical bills that are only going to mount, would likely hunker down and not give any to anybody else.  My own father, OTOH, is a finance guy and has planned, very well, for handling his medical expenses on his own since I can do zero to support him.  And he's given me $ when I've most desperately needed it as he'd spoken several times that it's his job to be there for me if he can.  

My life view is similar to what you describe:  The parents sacrifice everything for their kids' benefit regarding opportunities, activities, comforts, education.

XNH, OTOH, clearly doesn't share that life view.  He won't inconvenience himself for his child or XW, just for his FOO, and barely even that.  (Providing $ and being inconvenienced are two very different actions:  One involves an electronic transaction which can be paid back through contract (read:  "I'll get mine no matter what.").  The other involves work/effort/physical going without in some fashion and XNH thinks he's worked for (read:  Outside the home and for $, all that he values) and so deserves the best -- he's told d so repeatedly).

I realize that your family is putting you in a very difficult situation.  I realize that their definition of "independently wealthy" and yours might involve different things.  At their age and with how rapidly deterioration can happen with all its vulnerabilities and fears of the worst, is it possible that their message to you was a knee-jerk reaction?  My father has done this with me, saying that he can't do/give xyz (when he's emotional/angry), then months later magically he can and does so easily (though, I'm sure, with burden upon himself that I don't know about).  

I feel for you and your H on this matter but don't know what more else to say.  I know that if I didn't have my dad helping me through these years when I've sorely needed it, I'd have been out on the street, or have gone to live elsewhere that's 1/4 as cheap, long before now.  I feel so fortunate, yet frustrated that I'm not supporting myself and d the way we both need for it to happen.  So I appreciate your situation on both sides of its coin.

NewWings4MeNow

[inflatedheart]

If they lend (they won`t give) then you OWE them. And even if you pay them back the next day, you owe them for their "being there for you". 

So true. When my parents extended help, DH and I ask, "What's the catch?", and then have to ask ourselves, "Is it worth it?", because there is always some sort of unspoken expectation. That we show up for holidays and pretend everything is fine or that I "make up" with my GC malignant N-sis are a couple I know are high on their list. There were always expectations once the money was given to us. And once the funds were spent paying bills, my N-fam would poke at my clothes or my hair and say, "We gave you money. Why don't you buy yourself new clothes/get a haircut/take yourself out to dinner/buy a new car?" When I started working retail to make ends meet, NM/NF would say, "Now don't spend your paycheck on clothes!". I almost never spend money on luxuries like that. Inside, I'm screaming, "ARE YOU CRAZY?!?! I have an electric bill due the size of Texas!" They just wanted to hear me explain my situation again and see me struggling. I'm wondering if that's just another way to dig the knife in deeper: they know they can help but they WON'T. Sadistic, no?

I do admit that I lived quite a privileged life, but even with wealthy parents for much of my childhood (the other part was spent struggling financially), I always felt like I have struggled to get my needs met. I've had to haggle for basic needs like food, clothing, education, and emotional support. Every problem I ever had, they either ignored it or threw money at me (which was often needed don't get me wrong). They never showed up for the events or clubs I was involved in (usually ones they liked or didn't cost them any money). In the rare moments my NM/NF were there, it was to boast about my talents or to argue with the referee. I was crippled with anxiety throughout my childhood, having "moving target" parents. My needs were only incidentally met when my arrow met their target. On those days, I felt amazing and important. It also led me to believe that I could control my situation with them; if I could only be more this or if I only did more that...

This is why things like this still hook me and make me angry.

[inflatedheart]

The net of my message to you is that folks of their generation, prone to money miserliness and who have medical bills that are only going to mount, would likely hunker down and not give any to anybody else.  

Isn't this entirely different than spending money, they supposed are limited with, on new cars, vacations and the like? Especially when they have loads of other luxuries like a sailboat, two OTHER classic cars etc. It would different if they were financially stagnant (not changing the manner in which they spend), but spending extraordinarily high amounts of money all of a sudden, now that their scapegoat kid is no longer getting help? (I know for a fact that golden child sis is still getting financial support, she made it painfully clear in an email to me.) They haven't hunkered down at all, they seem to have increased their spending, which is what seems so strange to me.

[honeybearII]

I will probably get slammed for my post here, but that never stopped me from speaking out, LOL.

My view on all this is very different.  I feel that whatever my parents made in life was THEIR MONEY and they were entitled to do whatever the heck they wanted to do.  Once I was out on my own, had left the nest, I don't feel they owed me a red cent.  That isn't to say that they weren't generous with me as gifts, but I just never felt that on ANY level I had a right to anything they had earned. 

I am turning 66 this year, and I see all this from a very different viewpoint, I guess.  My children are in their 30s, and while I know they have struggled at times and also have student loans to pay off, I also know that the greatest gift I can give them is to have my OWN finances in order so, God willing, what I make plans for as I look at retiring will last me until I die.  If, at that time, there is anything of any value left, then it will be divided equally among them.  If they called in desperate straits and asked for help, I would do what I could, but I WOULD NOT AND COULD NOT use what I had to help them out for the long haul.  I don't see that as selfish - I see it as insuring that they will not have the burden of caring for me because I didn't do some kind of planning ahead. 

Right now my husband and I are still working and we DO enjoy our money.  OUR money.  We take modest trips, we eat out when we want to, we drive good cars.  We also put away what we can, and we are very well aware that once we retire, and it will be sooner rather than later, our lifestyle will change radically if we are not going to outlast our savings.  l

I understand that while I might wish greatly to keep giving to my children, I simply cannot do that.  My exNH and I went through some very, VERY lean years with almost no income and 3 kids looking to college.  I know what it is to wonder if we can pay the mortgage.  I have been through bankruptcy due to poor business decisions from exNH.  I know what it is to shop for clothes at K-mart and scrape by with macaroni and cheese and vienna sausages.  If I had to do it again, I could, but instead I choose to enjoy the fruits of many years of labor and also plan wisely for the future.  My parents did the same, and the greatest gift they gave me, my sister and brother, was making sure that we never had the burden of caring for them.  My mother has Alzheimer's now and has gone through all her money, but because of wise decisions by both of them, is living in a place that is wonderful and that will take care of her until the end. 

I hope that I will be able to do that for my children!!  I guess I feel that we all have to figure out our own financial journey and make wise decisions at whatever age we find ourselves. 
Honey

[inflatedheart]

Honeybear-- You are entitled to your opinion and I would agree with you in most situations. However, I think it is vastly different when you're talking about the financial security and enjoyment that healthy, emotionally well-adjusted individuals want to enjoy. They have long fostered financial security in their children in other ways. My parents have never, EVER shared their wealth with anyone unless it was to serve some sort of end for them. Even then, they have stolen money from me via student loans as co-signers, which I am desperately attempting to keep on top of. Instead of paying the school and giving me the cut of the loan needed for books, living expenses, course fees etc, I had to work 3+ jobs during college and throughout the summer just in case Mum and Dad decided to take an extra cut of my student loans again. They didn't need the money. They did it just because they could and because I was at their mercy financially. They were careful to always appear helpful and loving, sending me random, sporadic checks with a note saying, "get something nice for yourself!" so I could never call foul and accuse them of stealing from me.

I went a winter in Massachusetts without a winter coat because I didn't have enough money to buy one by the time my tuition was paid. I eventually sucked up the courage to ask for an emergency loan from a relative so I wouldn't freeze to death walking to class. Naturally, because I didn't have a car. Couldn't afford to ever have one and Mum and Dad never let me work in high school because it was "unbecoming" for someone of our "stature". I definitely paid for embarrassing the parental units when I asked Aunty for a loan, so I paid for the coat in emotional ways too.  I could go on and on in the ways they have stolen from me financially and down right lied to me about my college savings. I have evidence that they spend my college savings on a car for the golden child sibling instead of using it to get me to school. I had to defer my college acceptance and work for AmeriCorps for a year in the inner city, living off food stamps and meager $500 paychecks. It was so I could get the educational award to pay for the costs incurred to move across the states for school. In order to do so, I had share an apartment with malignant N-sis because NM/NF didn't want to pay to keep me under their roof anymore at the age of 17.

I have applied for public assistance, rented an apartment, lived in the inner city, worked multiple jobs at once, paid bills/rent, paid the application fees for college,   applied for financial aid/scholarships/grants and saved enough money to move across the country to start college at an Ivy League school all on my own at the age of 17. I don't know a 17-year old capable of this entirely on their own without having to make huge developmental, social and emotional sacrifices to do so. Do you see how much I have had to sacrifice for MY parents? Just so they didn't have to bother doing their basic parental duties or help me, even a little, to get started? For as long as I can remember, I have done everything on my own. Now that I've had cancer, it is MUCH harder for me to pull myself up by my bootstraps and given their long record of shady business dealings with MY money, I feel entitled to at least a little help and care now. What normal parent sees their children working their a$$ off unable to make ends meet and says no to helping them? It's not like I believe it is my right to demand money from them, simply because I'm their kid. I hate the idea of needing help financially or asking others for help, but as a 26 year old cancer survivor, I think I have done a  fine job of raising myself and providing for my needs, given that my parents have never helped me unless it was to satisfy their needs.

I hope that this helps you understand why I feel so resentful, angry and hurt that they are lying to me about their finances.

[talia]

Dear IF..

This brought up a couple of things for me...

With regards to the malignant N I was involved with, who was the covert type N, he was very manipulative about money. In the beginning he paid for our outings, but as time went on this became very unbalanced. I've never allowed anyone to always pay my way. I think this has to do with my upbringing as I can't accept without reciprocating. As time progressed with the N, whenever we discussed future plans he would use this "we" approach(seductive manipulation). I would think we were on the same page, but whenever it came time to pay the bill(whether that be the restaurant tab, hotel bill, etc..), he would announce, "here's my part..yes, you owe blah blah blah, that's right!" Well, I would be surprised or taken off guard(as my mind scrambled..huh???). To avoid embarrassment, I would just pay. I wouldn't confront him on it. Why? Didn't want to risk losing him.(hahahahaha!) But, I really do believe, that he thinks he was pulling the wool over my eyes, that I was that stupid. I'm quite sure he got off on that.

The other thing this reminded me of was my own narcissistic family. Not wealthy, but not hurting for money. This really played into feeling worthless. Very hard to understand why I had to beg for clothes when I could see all the purchases my dad would make. The exception would be at x-mas time, but I caught on that this was for show as the neighbors were paraded in..."Show so and so everything you got for x-mas". The good news is, that while my dad has destructive narcissistic traits, he is not full blown NPD. He has matured and mellowed with age. There is recognition of his past selfishness. Still an emotionally distanced man, but in his way, is trying to make amends. He is extremely generous with gifts at x-mas time, making it a point to buy everyone what they really want. While not the greatest father, he's a great grandfather. He pretty much abandoned one of my half-brothers at the age of 17. My half-brother died last summer. My dad didn't attend the funeral, but he paid for it. He did have an emotional break, even if only shown to me briefly.

I can understand why you're angry. Sure, they don't HAVE to help. But, don't lie about it.

hugs,
t

[JennyWren]

I agree talia, it`s not about a duty to help on the part of inflated hearts parents, but more about the pretence that they can not.

Personally, I could not enjoy lavishing money on myself if my children (grown up or otherwise) were unhappy in a way that money could solve. But I also understand that this is a personal thing. If someone feels that they have the right to enjoy their money and let others make their own way, then good for them. I just feel that if they should have the courage of their convictions and be honest about it. The fact that they are not suggests there is a double standard going on. "We would help if we could" is a very different message to "We have worked hard and feel it makes a person stronger to make their own way". They are trying to have it both ways....appearing self-sacrificing while not helping.

[SusyP14]

Inflated Heart, For whatever reason, I just wanted to make sure you knew this:

Adults raised in Narcissistic Families tend to take on responsibilty for things they do not control. They see no logical inconsistency in this, as it conforms so well to their worldview. It is difficult for them to master the concept that assuming responsibilty for something without being in control of it is inviting craziness-or at least, inviting failure, self -loathing, and feelings of worthlessness.

From this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Narcissistic-Family-Diagnosis-Treatment/dp/0787908703/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1229876460&sr=1-1
 

[honeybearII]

IH, thank you for sharing those things, and I DO understand that parents, in a perfect world, would all be generous and not undermine their children.  But in your case, obviously your parents were/are extremely selfish people.  But you know what, IH?  I am AMAZED at your resiliency and coping skills and the ability to see the whole picture and you are that way IN SPITE OF your parents - not because of them.

Good going!!
Honey

[inflatedheart]

But they are good at accumulating money, and this makes them feel big and clever.

This is so true. They always compare my finances with theirs, of course to make them sound clever and impressive. Okay, honestly...they've had their entire lives to build up their finances and they also "inherited" (read: stole) my grandmother's farm sales settlement of over 3 million dollars. My NF has sold his soul selling weapons technology for a generous salary (a profession that totally suits him; pays a lot and he doesn't have to consider the livelihood of human beings). I'm in my 20's, just starting my career. I'm naturally not going to be as financially stable with a padded savings account. Any money we did have after we were married went to my left over medical bills. I don't think they've EVER gotten a $7,000 medical in the mail like I have. Thanks a lot, craptastic student insurance!

They have no care to any inheritance that will be left to us kids. They've made it clear that they're not giving away anything (but who knows what is said to golden child when I'm not present). They're extending themselves as far as possible, spending as much as they want on themselves. They always say that "insurance will cover any debits", as if to press in our faces how they don't care if there are any left over expenses or if we inherit anything, even hierlooms. They're dead. What will they care? Such classic, selfish N-thinking. Grandma has been smuggling out family heirlooms during my visits, such as the family genealogy, photo albums (NM threw away my baby pictures!), antiques and the like. She couldn't stand to see them auctioned off if something happened and has been asking me to keep them safe.

My parents have never, ever fostered financial independence, especially in the girls in the family. Despite that my sis is the GC, she has also lacked some of the basic lessons that normal parents are supposed to teach. It makes sense now that she has NO idea of value, saving or wise spending! I didn't learn to drive until my DH taught me at the age of 21. I never had any credit history and was therefore unable to find a decent place to live, a car to drive and loans to go to school. I had to rely on my husband's credit score so I could build mine.  I think the idea of control is interesting. By denying me lessons in finances (among other things), I was less likely to be out of their control and therefore less likely to stop mirroring them/providing them with supply, am I right?

[inflatedheart]

I agree talia, it`s not about a duty to help on the part of inflated hearts parents, but more about the pretence that they can not...The fact that they are not suggests there is a double standard going on. "We would help if we could" is a very different message to "We have worked hard and feel it makes a person stronger to make their own way". They are trying to have it both ways....appearing self-sacrificing while not helping.

Yes, yes, yes! This is exactly what I've been trying to piece together! Thanks for that! They totally try to play both sides of it.

[Imogene]

With Honey's initial comment in mind--not that this has direct bearing on the circumstances here, inflatedheart-- I also want to add that narcissistic family systems are so triangulated and have such warped values, that often not only are gifts the primary means of expressing love; the golden child gets the lion's share of gifts.  So while it's true that kids should develop financial independence, this value isn't being taught in narcissistic families.  Instead the kids are being taught to hate each other and fight over resources.  I'm 50, and I still have issues with this.  It's very traumatic to grow up in a family where one child is grossly favored.  So I wouldn't blame inflatedheart if she felt entitled or ashamed for feeling entitled because her tuition was not being covered, etc. 

But inflatedheart's situation is something else again.  Inflatedheart, you baby!  It's not like you had cancer or anything.  Oh, wait. . . what's that you say?  You DID have cancer.  Oh.  Never mind.  You know what it seems like to me?  This is perhaps a bit far-fetched, but I think the fancy car is beside the point.  It seems like your mother is withholding the support to you out of sheer spite, because now she's the one who is sick.  I hope it's not that bad, but the more you explain their financial situation, the more peculiar their behavior seems.     

[notakennedy]

Usually the last thing I would describe my mother is, is an N. She is far too aware and compassionate to be one. But her attitude to money is very different to mine, and I think it is generational.  I have practically given my last $ to put gas in my daughter's car or groceries (she is a single parent and struggles), and probably I have disadvantaged myself financially over and over. My mother was a fiercely independent and self-supporting single parent herself and wisely saved money. I would have to be practically destitute to ask her for assistance, especially now she is retired - and she has said in the past, I would help you if I could ....but then she spent an exorbitant amount of money on vet's bills for the loved cat. Thousands. I'm the only child and I'm trying to support my daughter and granddaughters, plus helping out my son who can't work at the moment due to an impending surgery on his wrist, thankfully my oldest daughter is in a good place relationship-wise and financially. I don't EXPECT it, but I would like to feel less afraid of asking for help when it is truly needed. There seems to be a large dose of "you have made your bed, now you must lie in it" going down. Fortunately I have inherited her financial nous, so far financial ruin has been averted...

On a true N-note, my younger daughter left the most N-husband this side of the black stump ('downunder' saying!). Miserly doesn't even come near it. Living near Boston, she had to plead and beg to buy shoes for her twin daughters in the middle of winter, or pay to heat the house properly - they had to wear winter coats inside - buying adequate food when she was pregnant was worse, but he bought her ticket home to NZ to give birth to the twins rather than pay for a hospital delivery in the States. Glad she came home - we have a live daughter and live babies as a result, when she arrived off the plane she was immaciated and the midwife here was horrified. There is more to her story at the hands of a sociopath N which would make you all weep. She wised up long ago but he still makes her suffer, even though they are apart.

[notakennedy]

I forgot to say .. my daughter's XNH makes mega-bucks as a pyschic. Mega-mega bucks. He has money stashed in socks that is never declared to the IRS. He pays no child support but grudgingly pays for some stuff for his children WHEN he thinks it is justified. He is the least spiritual, most materialistic man I have ever met and he works her psychologically to the point of driving her to attempt suicide to get away from his N-control. He is the worse, the very, very worst.

[MoreMyself]

Just wanted to add that it wasn't just their miserliness, it was their inconsistency that I most hated.  My NM is inconsistent in gifting more money to certain children and grandchildren, then throwing my sons a few scraps so she can pretend she doesn't play favourites.  My NXH was miserly, also judgemental and transferred his own inability to deal with finances (he once sent out all the monthly payment cheques and didn't sign any of them) to me, telling me he didn't trust me to make financial decisions then taking advice from everybody else who had a stock tip or a guaranteed 'get-rich' quick scheme.  I'm still helping my 21 year old because he's at university (and works part-time, lives at home), by doing things paying for his car insurance.  I insist he pays for the maintenance, etc., but I help out with other things.  I have to plead with NXH every year to pay his half of the insurance, which this year amounted to $300.  He argues, and resists and this year even said maybe we should just cancel it, does our son really need it?  I should add he's independently wealthy and takes his new woman on trips around the world.  But he'd gladly see his son drive without car insurance just to save $300.  No, the word miserly doesn't quite describe it.