a horrible dilemma

[Imogene]

In my last post on this subject, I told you all that my husband has been behaving inappropriately with my daughter, romanticizing their relationship.  I spoke with my therapist and read the responses here, and I decided to write my daughter's therapist as calmly as I could, describing only those things my therapist thought were valid concerns (as opposed to observations that reflected more on our marital relationship).  I did that.

This afternoon, my daughter's therapist called me.  She said she was ethically bound now to call a joint counseling session to investigate whether there was actual sexual abuse, because a third party (the mother at my daughter's music academy) had noticed my daughter's behavior and labelled it as acting out.  This is the last outcome I had expected.  I had no idea a third party's opinion would carry so much weight.  I just thought that maybe she would be more inclined to believe me if I noted that someone else thought my child was sexually acting out.  She said I have to tell my husband.  She said I can blame her and my therapist for everything, claiming that my therapist insisted I contact her, and that she was then bound to meet with us.  Of course I told my daughter's therapist that I did not believe there was any abuse or that my husband's actions were even conscious on that level. 

Now I just feel horrified.  He is going to be so angry when I speak with him.  He's going to make me feel like dirt for telling the therapist that I think he would behave inappropriately with my daughter.  He is going to think I'm making it up to get back at him.  And what if I have things all wrong?  After this phone call, I went to get my daughter from his office, and I picked up a card she made him.  She rarely makes cards for me, and if she does, she wants to share it with him and will say that she loves us both.  This one read, "You are the best person in the whole world, but I also like mommy a lot, too."  Maybe I am just not as capable of giving her what she needs, and here I have accused him of terrible things because I am ashamed of my inadequacies.

In other words, I am experiencing sickening self-doubt.  And I don't know if I can bring myself to tell him.  I'm scared.  Okay, all self-doubt aside, the likelihood of him changing--really changing--as small.  As Julia and Jen have said, a girlfriend will ratchet down the intensity.  But in the meanwhile, he will not change, yet the resentment he is bound to feel toward me for noticing his behavior and trying to protect my daughter from harm could be huge.  He could make my life difficult and make it even harder for me to parent her once he's out of the house.

The therapist did take what I had to say seriously.  She identified accurately that the only way he might possibly change is if he can hear that other people will notice my daughter's behavior if it persists or gets worse.  But she said that it might be impossible to get him to hear much of anything, so I would have to understand that if issues didn't get raised it was because she didn't think he could deal with them.  Great.

I realize I titled this thread "a horrible dilemma."  I don't know why.  It's funny to be having this experience while reading Brown's book on courage and connection.  What would my authentic self do?  Why do I feel so nervous standing up for what I know to be true, for my daughter's sake?  Etc.

.

 

[monique94550]

Imogene,

It feels to me that what you have done is right, and now the chips will fall where they may.  I believe your motives were honest in that you were trying to do what is best for your daughter.  Now you are feeling fear because you've stood up to the N, and there will be uncomfortable consequences that you'll have to face from the N.  This fear is probably a deeply ingrained reaction from lessons you've learned from standing up to other N's in your life, from childhood on.  We learn that we get punished when we stand up for what we think is right.  I think we must walk through that fear as adults if we want to recover and learn to trust ourselves and stand in our truth.

Hang in there.

Monique

[NewWings4MeNow]

Imogene,

I was more or less on the wobbly tightrope you're walking now, in not knowing what to/to not report, to whom to/to not report it and under what circumstances to/to not say anything.

Ws/XWs in this situation are societally d*mned, from many posts and articles I've read.  OTOH they're required to report behavior to protect their children and may actually have charges filed against them and have themselves jailed if they don't.  OTOH if they do report, and since law enforcement doesn't know them from Adam and assumes all the parties are lying, they're accused of trumping up charges/scare tactics for behavior that isn't proven because the woman doesn't have physical, tangible proof. 

Digress:  During the psych eval/custody stuff, XNH tried with d to get "proof".  He asked her to do a "handwriting sample", and she just happened to write, of all the words/phrases on the entire planet, "Mommy is sick.  I have to help Mommy."  D was six.  The 730 evaluator had a field day with that. 

I'm telling you, their tactics can be the sickest and most deceptive of any typical criminal type mind.  The stuff XNH pulled really, truly frightened me it was so without conscience.


To your latest update:  So now the cat's out of the bag, a third party unrelated to both of you has spoken up.  This could actually turn into a good thing.  When we went through the psych eval they wanted to speak with unrelated parties (now, how XNMIL also happened to be interviewed in that process was "interesting" ....). 

This puts you in a position of being one of the people who's *asked* questions.  They now need info from you.  You may choose which info to share and which to not share.  You may choose to speak or to remain silent until someone calls upon you.  It can be a mistake to be reactive in this situation and voluntarily come forward, sword and shield in hand to defend your d, as they think "perhaps the lady protesteth too much".  Remaining quieter and just waiting for whatever it is they want of you, getting that opening to have that private, quiet conversation (which happens to go on record), where you can allude to issues, suggest concerns, backpeddle by saying you're no psychotherapeutic expert but ..., describe changes in your d's voice tone, her body movements/expressions -- without expressing at all what those might mean. 

At this time they want factual descriptions, zero interpretations, on your part.  It's the interpretations, persuasions, leading to conclusions, that can get us/women in your situation, sunk. 

And if the outcome of this first round is "We're going to watch him.  We want you to keep a journal of d's daily behavior, their interactions," you ask them if you should write down conversational quotes. 

Be prepared to start recording her, him, them together -- but do NOT discuss this with anybody, not even your lawyer (who's obligated to tell you you're not permitted to do so as it's illegal blah, blah, blah).  This would be the #1 piece of advice I'd now give any/all women dealing with N/Hs and facing D and custody issues, as I was told not to record during months that would have made all the difference in custody.  Until years passed and XNH's private abuse and threats toward me continued and even my lawyers told me to tell the mediator that I was going to start recording him. 

If your NH is sexualizing your d and is insidiously taking his behaviors bits farther each time, physical proof will be needed now more than ever before to save your d and prevent the all-dreaded custody award to a father who may, in fact, really be sexually abusing his d.  Stories of these awards abound and are, to me, beyond tragic.  Please, please don't get me wrong here:  I'm not saying your NH is a sexual abuser as I have no idea and certainly you're deathly afraid of this and would give anything for him not to be.  I completely get it.  If his behavior is borne of selfishness, childishness and ignorance, but not a desire to permanently harm, that will be borne out.  If the other signs are there, however, at least your d isn't alone and unattended to prove/disprove it.

She Who Acts Out is Considered to be the Sick One.  Especially in a circumstance like this.

It's very normal and natural for you to feel fear at this turn of events because of what it likely will set in motion.  That fear will keep you aware, alert and require you to be very careful in your actions and words right now.  But it need not lead you to a conclusion that all is lost, that your NH will overpower and prevail or that your d will ultimately be harmed.  What you're dealing with is scary sh*t.  Period.  You ARE now your d's sword and shield but you have to be that with a careful strategy that's perhaps not so overt right now. 

So, e.g., if you're required to tell your NH, all you do is quote the person on the phone and whatever quote you were given by the woman who made the report.  If your NH goes off and shows up at that woman's house or calls her screaming and threatening, IT ISN'T YOU; it's him and he's individually reponsible for the consequences.  If he starts in on you you can just say, "I'm just reporting the facts of what I've been told."  And if he charges you with how you're involved or demands to know what you've been saying to people, YOU DON'T HAVE TO ANSWER OR REPORT TO HIM.  You can just repeat again, "I'm just reporting the facts of what I've been told, as instructed to do.  I have nothing to say to you on this topic at this time"  or "I'm not going to discuss that with you."  Period.  And repeat it as necessary.

Unfortunately on this topic you and your NH are adversaries now, and it will be very important for you to try to separate that out in your mind and really govern yourself in what you do/do not let him know.  Unfortunately you're circling the perimeter of having to, to an extent, set a trap for him with monitoring, evidence gathering, additional public/private encounters which will further confirm or dissuade what seems to be going on between your NH and your d. 

If others are noticing things, this could ultimately be a good thing, a catalyst.  If the one woman has noticed and has had the gumption to step up, it's entirely possible that other adults in d's life have also noticed.  At the start of separation from XNH I had 50 people who agreed to be called by the judge to attest to my being a good parent to d.  Ultimately just a couple of them (especially those local) would actually sign sworn statements to that effect because they didn't want to get involved or sucked into a nasty court situation *and* one father said he was afraid XNH would show up at his door and he had a family to protect.  Self-preservation.  Very disappointing to me as I had no one else to count on, but I understood.  You've had one come forward.  That's courage.  Perhaps once the whispering starts and word gets out that she's done so, others will comment too.

Be strong, Imogene.  This doesn't mean that all is lost; it does mean that the roller coaster has started its descent -- or is it its slow uphill climb before all h*ll breaks loose and the real shaking starts.  In any case, as hard as it will be, truth will come out, behaviors will show themselves to a wider audience and all this will move toward various stages of resolution.

We on WoN are here to support you through whatever happens.

I'm stating her just my point of view and you may agree or not, or know of further details which position my views as off the mark, and so take them for what they're worth.

NewWings4MeNow

[betterdays]

Imogene, a year and a half ago a similar thing happened to me, and it was very helpful for me to be able to tell N that the authorities were called, but not by me.

I took d to the doctor for massive headaches and stomach aches, and she told the doctor that N was touching her, that she had seen porn on his computer when she walked up behind him, and that N had told her he had a girlfriend.  The doctor called CPS, and when N blamed me, I repeatedly told him who called.  He never stopped trying to assign blame to me, and I never quit telling him his behavior had consequences not related to me.  I even acted baffled, off and on, because N was so furiously denying any and all allegations while attacking me. Acting that way served to slow his rage a bit. He still blames me and discounts the whole report.

CPS does nothing unless there is a "completed act", and skin to skin touching, at least here those are the guidelines. 

The doctor was furious, and then I had to hear his anger about not protecting my d.  When I told them he only saw d for two hours during the week and Sunday evenings, he was angry that I allowed that much contact.

N was furious, d was and still is furious, and I got to hear it all.  That's when I looked up a T for myself.

After going through this, I can  tell you one thing: be ready to be blamed by all concerned, and stay close to your kids.  Keep talking, and remain the adult in charge.  I never caved in front of d, and kept it together in d's therapy and doctor's appointments.  It turned out to be the best thing I could have done.

By all means, act surprised that the T would have taken any action, and tell N you are not worried, T's just check everything out.  Do anything to deflect the anger, and ask N why *would* a trained professional think lying nose to nose on the bed, flashing panties, and privacy violations were objectionable?  Gosh, could they be seeing an overall picture here?  And why *would* the other parent think there were concerns?  Let N answer the questions, all you have to do is say you were worried about d missing playtime, and then the use of time was discussed.

My suggestions come from being raked over the coals for a year before being able to get out, and I sincerely hope it goes more smoothly for you.

You know how to characterize the events of your situation better than I, but I hope I am clear enough about deflecting blame.  Act as innocent as you can, because you are.  The onus is on N, not you.

Sorry if I sound strident or preachy. 

[Julia]

Imogene,

 I hear your self-doubt about the consequences of having this known. And I was in your place, I was 98% sure that XN had never consciously touched my ds inappropriately. Yet, he was doing things that were harmful - going to sleep in their beds, letting them sit naked on his lap or on his shoulders, letting them flash, letting them pull down each others pants aggressively, etc. These things would only become MORE harmful as they got older or if the behaviors got even more outlandish. Boundary crossing every which way, encouraged or ignored by XN, and that is not what we want them to learn.

Telling this to the T was a way to put on the brakes, to expose the behavior, label it as inappropriate, and hope and pray that he cared enough about his image to take action. It was also a way to show the girls that it is OK to bring up this kind of thing with the T themselves. Both of your Ts both sound terrific, btw, please do not hesitate to take their advice.

I like better's idea of downplaying the whole thing. Tell him that you  were discussing with your T how d spends her time, and that you had NO IDEA that the T would react this way. You could even say that you do not think he has ever touched her privates (if that is what you really believe), as that will disarm his worst fear about what this is all about. Let the T deal with telling him what is developmentally appropriate between fathers and daughters, since she has the objectivity and the credibility to do so. If he wants to get into a fight about it, act very surprised that a double meeting is necessary, just repeat the same things over and over.

Like Wings says, stay calm, let the T do the talking, just answer factual questions. If you feel yourself getting reactive and any hysteria, you can always excuse yourself to go the the restroom and take the time to breath and calm yourself. Ultimately, the fact that the Ts are taking this so seriously is Validation, and I hope you can feel that sometime soon.

Julia

[JennyWren]

Imogene, as ever the advice here is very thorough and comes from experience. I entirely understand why you feel so anxious about NHs reaction to this. My input really is about your feelings of self doubt.

I think if you examine your feelings subjectively, you may find (as I usually do) that they are find their basis in the intimidating anger....or expected anger of NH. If you could take his reaction out of the equasion....surgically remove it....would you feel ANY self doubt. I suspect you might a bit, because you maybe want to look at everything from all the angles and not arrogantly assume you are never wrong. But I wonder maybe if fear of the NHs (inevitable) rage-storm is exaggerating your self-doubt reaction.

I would only wish to say that you have concerns about your daughter based on behaviour you have witnessed. Your instincts tell you to be afraid for your d. To protect her. And you are absolutely one hundred per cent right in all you have done. The way NH has been behaving around your d is sourced in his unnatural way of thinking. And in my view, the more light that can be shone on his behaviour the better. As NewWings states...if one person has commented on this...many more will have observed it.

Try to keep your courage and believe in yourself Imogene. Ns know how to use your self-doubt against you. It protects them because they have NONE. I think maybe like me, you will just need to go through this self-doubt stage....the anxiety and fear....before finding your way and the path forward. I have said it a zillion times....but I really do admire your strength to live with this man at all. And I think you have kept your head under the most trying of cicumstances. Hang on in there.

Jen

PS I have yet to even order Brene Brown`s book, because I just feel like I am so screwed-up into a little protective ball of survival her words would be wasted on me. How weedy is that!

[monique94550]

There's lots of wonderful wisdom and experience here!  What I'm getting from this thread is that we need to trust our instincts in protecting our children, and try to take the N's anger and reaction out of the equation.  Self doubt has been my constant companion as long as I can remember, but I can break free from it with the help of WoN and T's (and, for me, prayer).

Imogene, sending you support and prayers and love-

Monique

[NewWings4MeNow]

Imogene,

I'm going to disagree with the points raised above that you ask NH questions, that you feign innocence/ignorance or that you suggest to him in any fashion that he's probably innocent. 

If you get actual answers to those questions (which isn't likely as he'd more likely attack you instead verbally and put you on the defensive) and it's not recorded, it's not worth a hill 'o beans.  And you've tipped your hand that you're acting as his judge and jury which will bring on more of his aggressions, and perhaps (c)overt behaviors and alignment with your d, in retaliation.

Feigning innocence/ignorance feeds N's view of the partner as incapable/incompetent and continues the focus on you.  The focus should be on the therapist and on NH.  ONLY.  This is why I advocate saying as little to nothing as possible and holding your cards close.  You (as part of the marriage) aren't on trial for the acts -- he would be alone.  Yes, I completely agree that you should be prepared to be initially blamed by others in terms of their knee-jerk reactions, but that's different from having a firm case rooted in facts and evidence.

As to any verbal suggestions to N that he's innocent, you may hope it but until you know it you lack information.  So again I'd advocate just keeping quiet on the topic.  This is NH's issue alone.

At this point you can take the stance that XNH took so well, "I wasn't there so I'm not involved and I'm not doing anything to defend you."  You can tell NH, "It's your issue; you handle it," and turn and leave the room, refusing to engage further.  Reinforcing his ownership of ALL the consequences.

And if NH comes at you with, "Aren't you going to defend me?" (which begs from you a Yes or No answer which you do NOT want to give him at this point -- he's fishing), you can answer very diplomatically with, "My priority is d's best interest," and again, leave the room.  (On the day XNH took a suitcase and left our house, I spoke with XNSIL by phone and told her about his behaviors.  She invited d to fly to their home for the weekend, "to a loving family", and when XBIL got on the phone he used the phrase "in d's best interest" for the first time -- so I knew their whole family had been discussing the D.)

My reaction here is for your protection at this point and not letting too much out that NH does not deserve right now until this is resolved.

NewWings4MeNow

[victimnomore]

It seems that whenever we are challenging the N/evil, we know there will be Hell to pay.  Sometimes waiting for the other shoe to drop is the worst part.  Doing the right thing, which is what you did, I have no doubt, is never easy.  But you are doing what you know in your gut to be right.  You know what you feel, what you have seen.  Your instincts are not wrong, although you want them to be.  Reporting it to the T was the right thing to do for your d's sake so don't beat yourself up. 

People lie all the time, but our gut instincts (if we listen to them) will never fail us.

[Bruna]

Dear Imogene
                    I am so sorry you have to face this. In my humble opinion you did very well to address the issue, despite the fears and doubts you are facing now. You had a gut feeling telling you something was wrong and you addressed the issue which is what anyone should do, in my opinion if something feels inappropriate it most probably is. Don't doubt yourself you are just protecting your child! That is honorable no matter the cost. I am not a mother, but I have experienced sexual abuse firsthand and i know how detrimental it is, it's best to be paranoid. Here are my two experiences, which seem unrelated to your case but shed some light on the hideous topic of sexual abuse:
1) I was sexually abused at age 18 by a so called friend, I  sensed something was wrong, before it happened,  but didn't listen to my gut instinct.
2) My exN slept with my sister. I again sensed and witnessed something was wrong but they denied it, they said it was innocent and they were just being friendly. It escalated, (behind my back, obviously).
I wish i had talked to someone wise and paranoid at the time.
In the case of a minor possible sexual abuse/sexualization is even worse, and being afraid it would escalate, you reacted. You did well, you are a brave woman. Don't take notice of how people judge your action, it's always best to be on the safe side, to stop 'em before they feel too secure and do worse damage.
Love
Bruna

[CZBZ]

"She said I can blame her and my therapist for everything, claiming that my therapist insisted I contact her, and that she was then bound to meet with us." ~Imogene

Dear Imogene,

This is why I would deflect attention and put responsibility on the therapists' shoulders, exactly as she suggested: YOU cannot afford to be accused of 'alienating' your child from your husband. You do not want to be perceived as a hysterical or vengeful woman, accusing her poor husband of sexual abuse so you could file for full custody. Unfortunately (you can google for specific cases and statistics), when a mother suggests her husband is involved sexually with a child (even when it is true), SHE stands the risk of losing custody entirely. This has happened in my own family. A good website that might have more information on statistics would be Liz's Library. (I don't have a handy url but you can find it easy enough).

In my opinion, it is best to deflect attention from yourself and play 'innocent' . Put the onus of responsibility on the therapists for doing what they must do according to law.You can even agree with him when he says the law is corrupt and erroneously in favor of mother's. rights. (poor falsely accused Dads who have it so bad in our woman-centered society-------------are ya throwing up, yet?)

Keep yourself out of the line of fire. What happens when the narcissist is backed into a corner, accused of sexual abuse is that he will retaliate aggressively and quite possibly, seek full custody to prove his innocence. He will become overly focused on proving YOU are unfit. This is how the N's brain works.

You do NOT want to be involved in any way, shape or form with accusations of sexual abuse. The courts do not like it when this happens during divorce and it discredits YOU, not your husband.

You know best how to handle your husband. We can't know that. Each N-relatioNship is different. Considering your husband's status however, he will need to defend his honor however he can. He probably hasn't done anything sexual with your daughter because if he had, he would not be laying on his bed playing games with her or anything 'you' might suspect to be abusive.


Hugs,
CZ

[CZBZ]

I thought therapists were required to tell clients that if they 'revealed' any information about sexual abuse, that they would be REQUIRED to report it?? Yes, it seems counter-productive since some people might 'silence' their suspicions at that point. I thought 'warning' a client was a requirement? Can anyone tell me what the law requires in circumstances like this?

CZ

[Imogene]

I only have a minute (will respond at length later), but briefly:  CZ, nothing is being reported at this point.  The therapist feels honor bound to meet with us jointly and satisfy herself that there is no sexual abuse.  I told her in no uncertain terms that I believed his behavior is unconscious and that he is not abusing her (touching her inappropriately).  Your first email nails it, and that is how I am going to handle things.

[CZBZ]

Thanks for clarifying, Imogene...what a relief to know it hasn't gotten to the point of calling CPS.  I've been out-of-town the past two days and need to read people's messages a little more carefully!

Hugs,
CZ

[Julia]

CZ,     I was warned openly and clearly, that any abuse physical or sexual abuse would have to be reported during my first meeting with the kids' T, also early on with the parent coordinator. Interesting that they do not report emotional abuse, eh? The parent could call the child a dumb shite several times a day without anyone batting an eye.   

The fact that the T wants to talk to the N about this doesn't mean she has decided it is "abuse", it means that it is a red flag that warrants more investigation and/or teaching  boundaries to the N now that his d is no longer a toddler.

It is important to note that what we are talking about here is probably not "criminal abuse", not something that would make Imogene's N lose custody. If Imogene suspected sexual skin to skin contact, or sexual arousal on the part of the N,  I would recommend that she set up a camera over each and every bed, couch, and love seat in the entire house until she had proof, and then she could take the film to the T. I would recommend that she stay living with XN for the sole purpose of acquiring this proof.  If, as a result of the meeting, the T suspects any of the above, then again, go for the film.

But, listening to Imogene.... that does not seem to be the case, so scaring and angering the N about possible criminal sexual abuse is counter-productive. Understatement.

Imogene,  I do not agree with Wings' scorched earth policy in dealing with your NH. If I had told XN that the T wants to talk to him about being in bed with d, that it is his problem, and that I am only looking out for ds best interest.......and then walked away, I think my life/divorce would have taken a very different turn than it has. It would be a declaration of war and your XN will assume that you are accusing him of raping his d. He will also assume that you are spreading this story around, (since he has already shown paranoia about that), and he will Explode. Do not accuse him, or accuse him by your silence/anger, unless you have evidence that you could use to win total physical/legal custody, i.e. physical evidence of rape. Even then, don't accuse him, or accuse him by your silence/anger... just go to the cops. Narcissistic Injury is a huge issue for us ex wives, there is the danger of violence, but even more common, there is the damage he can do once he has decided that his first priority is to destroy you. You could turn a Narcissist into a Psychopath, Don't Go There.

I was fortunate enough to meet with a family friend early in my separation. She is a therapist, long divorced from an N who abused her kids sexually (rape). She advised me to NEVER confront the N personally. To never call him names, to never be so brusk as to make it obvious that I was blaming him, etc. And I swallowed and said...."so I shouldn't have called him a 'soul-sucking monster' yesterday on the phone?" And she laughed and said, "No, so here's what you do... call him back and say that you feel bad, you were angry and emotional, and that you didn't mean it.." And I did call him back, and he accepted the apology... unbelievable...and life went on, and I become wiser and very, very polite with XN. And it has helped me  more than I can easily explain.


Julia

[CZBZ]

Julia,

We are very much in sync with our approaches. I have no problem 'deferring' to the narcissist if it keeps me safe and my kids safe. I apologized to my X for being verbally abusive and yes, he appreciated that so much. 

Narcissism is a tricky disorder and if you let your ego get in the way, you will have a much more difficult time... I liked what you wrote about the 'narcissistic injury', Julia. Some people/forums still advocate 'going for the throat' and inflicting as much narcissistic injury as possible. This advice lacks understanding about the narcissistic personality.

I have been accused of being 'too soft' on narcissists and perhaps that is true. However, I view my approach as one of respect...respect for the narcissist's defenses which are unconscious and dangerous to others.

Hugs,
CZ

p.s. Thank you very much for explaining further about of sexual abuse. We could certainly use a thoughtful article about situations like this. It comes up frequently enough on our forum...

[NewWings4MeNow]

I'd like to clarify my views as not suggesting anything remotely representing "scorched earth" or making moves to overtly wage any kind of war.  In the case of Julia's example, I would simply tell N that the T wants to speak with him and NOT create a private conversation about such a controversial topic without witnesses, as I specifically referred to above.

If folks here think it is the better part of valor to appeal to NH in a variety of fashions, and if that has worked in other situations, I respect those approaches.

Imogene, only you know your NH and can see most directly the safer course to maneuver dealing with him directly.

My main message to you is to stay out of his line of fire in whatever ways you need to.  If the T, the woman/any other adults who come forward and/or any reporting agencies are the third-parties, let the responsibility lie with them to gather info, investigate, verify/corroborate.  My main suggestion to you has been to stay as quiet as possible and to offer up as little extra information as necessary, in support of all this.

Having not, myself, been accused of PA or moved a PA accusation forward, nor having been the victim of sexual abuse myself, I've only observed behaviors in XNH that I considered to be moving in an inappropriate direction and I've told people directly in these fields (child Ts, a high-conflict counselor) about it and they instructed me with specific action steps which worked at the time and which focused on educating d as to her own behavior modifications but, as I've said, she was somewhat older than your d.  D set about to implementing them through time and she's been the one, as she's become a teen, who's commented herself to me and to others when her father's behavior has felt "creepy".  Other than that I don't have an insider's perspective except that, the more third parties involved who suspect the mother of anything, the worse things can get for her/you.

My best wishes for your good luck handling this.

NewWings4MeNow

[JennyWren]

My recent experience of my NH has indeed shown that to confront him head on ratchets up the stakes instantly. N injury is really counterproductive. But what a difficult path to try and tread Imogene if you are to protect your daughter AND keep N injury to a minimum. These people are just impossible and we end up tying ourselves in knots to find ways forward. I know you are resourceful and thoughtful enough to find a balance there somewhere that works for your situation.

I hope you are feeling strong enough to cope with NH around now weekend is approaching. Is there any way you can arrange activities for your daughter and get out of the house as much as possible? Thinking of you. I know weekends amplify the stress.

Jen

[Julia]

Wings, I didn't mean to offend. Perhaps scorched earth is too harsh. I think we are talking about similar things... That Imogene stay out of it as much as possible, letting Ns chips fall where they will, letting the T talk to him.

However, I think it is important to make sure that the blame doesn't fall on Imogene, and the only way to do that is to plead complete ignorance and give whatever reassurance to N that she feels comfortable with...It deflects the bull to somewhere else, or perhaps even keeps the bull from getting too riled up. I do still think that it would be war to let him assume that Imogene is accusing him of rape. Remember, that in an Ns mind you are either for them or against them, either supply or discard. Imogene and her d are best if N doesn't decide that they are public enemy #1.

Julia

[Imogene]

Julia, you really summed things up for me when you said that you were 98% sure that your ex wasn't sexually abusing your girls.  The two percent uncertainty is something I struggle with when my intuition tells me that there's something wrong.  He can't be. . . and yet.  What if the worst is true?  He is not the man I thought he was; that's the problem.  So my mind cannot rule out any possibility, as I no longer have a measure of what he would do or where he would draw the line.

Your advice here is solid, and I intend to follow it.  We all know how hard it is not to be reactive when they are, let's face it, such freckled arseholes.  I lost it momentarily last night when my husband started complaining (and encouraging my daughter to complain) about the fact that her music teacher cut her fingernail too short.  He cuts her nails, because my husband can't be bothered.  Nor can he be grateful, and it annoys the hell out of me that he is teaching my daughter by example to disparage an act of charity rather than express a simple "thank you."  I barked out, "It's your job to cut her nails, not his." 

But this is such small potatoes compared to the other business, and herein lies a big problem in dealing with narcissists.  They really make it all about the small stuff.  I challenge any of you to name me an example of when you ever had a serious conversation about issues that mattered to you with a narcissist.  Anybody?  Anybody?  I should post the email my husband sent me when he announced that he wanted to split.  I couldn't understand a damned thing he was saying.  The most momentous decision of his life, and he couldn't for the life of him explain why he was doing it--mostly I'm sure because his reasons were selfish and ill-conceived.  So you learn to be reactive about the small stuff and to develop their same sense of myopic proportionality.

Returning to the thread--I have been learning to apologize and back away.  Confronting them ONLY works with the small stuff, and sometimes (for instance with my brother) not even then.  I wrote him to apologize for my behavior last time at my daughter's therapist and told him I was writing her to say that I got carried away out of fear.  He didn't respond, but he did seem mollified.  A useful thing to remember: narcissists are gullible.   

Jen, thanks for your messages and thoughts.  It always helps to read your messages.

Betterdays, I still don't know how you got through it.  Yours is a twisted mother.  We are roughly the same age, too old to be experiencing this kind of upheaval and stress.  I'll think of you when I start planning the golden years commune!  On a more serious note, you haven't posted about yourself in a while.  Is all the stuff moved out?  Is the house up for sale?  Are you feeling okay?

NewWings, I know where you are coming from, and I always appreciate your messages and advice.  I'm so glad you are on this board so I can learn from your experience, which is so much like mine in many ways. 

And thanks so much for the support, Monique, Bruna, and Victimnomore.  I appreciate it more than you guys could know.

I still haven't spoken to him.  I was out all day with women who have daughters that play with mine yet who, unfortunately, aren't close enough to be confidantes.  I came home to an unfed, unwalked dog.  I am rehearsing my lines.  I'm worn out. 

[NewWings4MeNow]

Imogene,

I'm facinated by your comment about when Ns split from someone can they even articulate why and how it's about the small stuff when it's the biggest decision of their lives.

XNH and I went together to one marital counselor one time after he'd moved out.  He showed up 45 minutes late to a one-hour appointment.  Sat down and said he wanted to talk about getting along through the D and that he didn't want to save the marriage.  (Through the d&d he'd told me he didn't want an R he "had to work on".  LOL.) 

After that the only thing he brought up as his reason for the D was that I decorated the house and asked him afterward.  It blew my mind that at such a life-defining moment all he could talk about was interior decorating -- which I did all myself and by hand to save money and every decision over $100 I asked his opinion on first as we'd long since agreed.  He didn't utter one syllable to me regarding his value of our marriage, what I'd meant to him through the years, where we'd made mistakes or gotten off track, nothing. 

Everybody's N/P is different.  I've found a solid pattern in that when I apologize to XNH for anything he almost immediately uses it as an opening to come at me for something else/for more when my apology isn't anything suggesting an invitation of any kind.  I'm exposing a vulnerability, a weak spot at those times, and as the opportunist he is he goes for it.  Which is why I've had to work through time to shut off more and more communication -- as the headache his follow-on aggressions represent to me, and the stresses of having to push back on him continuously at those points, hasn't at all been worth it to my mind and my health.

You mentioning disparaging.  This topic has become huge to me.  If I have to mention one characteristic I've been experiencing ever more in/from d these past months, it's a large lack of appreciation for anything and any people.  Last night I drove her to her annual school awards ceremony, where she was receiving an academic award.  She spoke with a gf by phone while en route, during which call she disparaged the award, the teachers, the event, and I warned her and told her that perhaps the girl on the phone was actually glad to receive hers, I told her she didn't have to go, and even after the ceremony when she made some snide remark about a letter their top students had received from the President I told her she had two choices:  She could either throw it away or give it back if it was so meaningless.  Lack of valuing.  Which goes along with selfishness and a willingness to self-excuse when the rest of the world won't.  Nothing is good enough and, given how she growled at me and ignored me in public at her event last night, not even me.  "Tired" is her universal excuse, though she seems to be able to pull herself together for her friends .... 

Teaching to disparage, to disrespect -- to me these are some of the biggest poisons passed from pareNts to their kids which put them on their way toward stronger N behavior tendencies as they get older.

I appreciate that you find some of my perspectives to be of value.

NewWings4MeNow

[NewWings4MeNow]

This is to Julia's last post:

It didn't take any kind of sexual reporting or concern for XNH to treat me like public enemy #1.  He was doing that anyway already, and had loads of other iNjury reasons.

And to be clear, I haven't here discussed rape of any kind.

Most N survival strategies advocate some kind of no contact, which implies going quiet in whatever form and to whatever extent.  It is possible to implement this all under the same roof.  No supply by silence/deflection/subject changing -- social disengagement to an extent and not sharing thoughts -- is different from positive or negative supply.  There is power in silence.

I see this as a different posture than ameliorating and want to express concern that feigning ignorance, especially if it's not true, can create a tangle and retribution if it's discovered.

Imogene, again, good luck,

NewWings4MeNow

[JennyWren]

I`m thinking that although Ns are working off the same brain-software that makes them have the same motivations and reactions often....that they are each running their software over their own innate personality.

Therefore they will have their own individual shades of N behaviour and unique qualities of their own. I think this thread shows that quite clearly. For example....Julia`s NH is best dealt with by passifying him cleverly and not causing N injury. To apologise to NewWings XNH is to give him a little victory and rev him up to greater evil. Mine is somewhere in between I think, Though I haven`t found a happy balance yet. Particularly as I want to kick him in the teeth at the moment...causing physical rather than Narcissistic injury but I digress...

I guess what I am saying is that each N is presenting us with a unique problem to solve. How to navigate the N waters with as little damage to ourselves and those we love as possible. And that is a hard thing to do. The fact that we are all having to think about this stuff...agonise over this stuff....discover strategies to deal with this stuff makes me so mad I could spit. Ns are running the show. Unless you have NC. They can`t hear you, don`t want to. It really is like banging your head on a brick wall. Only more painful and less productive.

When I read the posts here I really get so worked up that the articulate, thoughtful, compassionate women who post here have to deal with these damaged screwed up little people and take up ALL the slack. Sure it is sad that the Ns will always be miserable, dis-contented shadows of real humans. But we have all tried so hard to help these jerks. And where has it got us?

Sorry Imogene to go off on one. I have noticed too, by the way, that the Ns love to make us concentrate on details. It works as a masive smoke-screen to disguise the big picture. Their tactics can only work for a finite period. One quick glimpse of the big picture is all it takes.

Jen

[monique94550]

Imogene, I started bringing up the "big stuff" recently, and I think that's what caused xN to leave me.  I told him I wasn't interested in hearing him disparage my political party and its leaders anymore, that it was offensive to me.  I told him to keep his nasty opinions to himself.  Same thing with his nasty comments about my favorite grocery store and Walmart and other stores.  I pretty much just had enough of all his complaining about everything under the sun and started telling him so.  I also told him I didn't want him to treat me so roughly in bed, and that I wanted more intimate physical contact outside of the bedroom, i.e., hand holding and hugging (yeah, right, like that was EVER going to happen).  I started being true to myself about the things in the relationship that were making me very uncomfortable.  I didn't attack him about them -- I just stated my needs and stated when something he said or did was unacceptable to me.  I told him no more nightly long sex talks on the phone so he could get off (so he quit calling me completely, and when I emailed him to ask him if sexual gratification was the only reason he called me, he wrote back to say he was busy and would respond to that later, but of course he never did).

So as I reclaimed myself and my needs, he backed away, and then he left.  He didn't want to (couldn't) meet my needs.

Monique

[CZBZ]

whoah, Monique...your avatar? Please tell me that's a movie. 


"I've found a solid pattern in that when I apologize to XNH for anything he almost immediately uses it as an opening to come at me for something else/for more when my apology isn't anything suggesting an invitation of any kind.  I'm exposing a vulnerability, a weak spot at those times, and as the opportunist he is he goes for it."

I clipped this part of your reply, Wings, because I'd like to clarify my comment about apologizing to the X for being verbally abusive. This apology was so far from the truth that anyone who wasn't crazily split at the time, would have rebutted my apology immediately--or they'd have apologized for their verbal abuse. What was proof of my verbal abuse after thirty-some years of marriage and a blood pressure reading so low doctors slapped my wrist to make sure I was alive? Well, I was so tired of him going on and on and on and not getting anywhere about his horrible childhood thatI said, "Buck the Cluck Up!" and voila, the man was scarred for life.

I could apologize and smooth the jagged space between us because sure, I felt bad for swearing. I'm not a swearer and I'm certainly not verbally abusive! BUT, in his victim state at at the time (and most narcissists are in a victim state when they terrorize their current partner because they've found a rescuer), he SAW me as abusive and dangerous, manipulative and conniving. It wasn't a total lie to apologize because I felt bad about my outburst--but it wasn't Truth with a capital "T".

So in response to your reply:  when we apologize to a narcissist, they do NOT respond the way normal people do, with a reciprocated apology and new 'starting ground' for the relationship. Narcissists view your apology as an admission of guilt---an admission of your imperfection (defective) and wicked personality. IF you are feeling vulnerable or even slightly guilty about something (I'll use verbal abuse because I am not verbally abusive), then apologizing to the narcissist gives him a weapon he can use against you. Narcissists are looking for ammunition and any admission of fault or weakness on your part, will come back to hurt you. SO, pick yer apologies just like you pick her battles. And do not pretend to yourself that your apology will affect the narcissist's sense of decency and reciprocal responsibility for HIS errors, faults and mistakes. Remember, at this heightened state of 'splitting', narcissists have no faults and YOU are the bad person. An apology to a narcissist whose defenses have decompensated (broken down), is like hanging yourself with your own noose.

Pick your apology as a means to sooth the N's ego defenses but please choose carefully. Make sure you aren't triggered by whatever you are apologizing for because he or she will bring it up over and over---whenever the narcissist needs to feel superior to you  and hopefully, make YOU feel inferior to him/her.

Hugs,
CZ