a horrible dilemma

[NewWings4MeNow]

Interesting, though, if Imogene's NH is "bringing the T down to her level" that reflects a certain mysogyny and further explains his objectifying actions with his d. 

Imogene, your NH *should* be afraid of the T.  She's holding the flashlight.  And he *should* be afraid of you.  You're the eyes and ears, and hold the phone, camera and recorder.

Until this is all resolved one way or another. 

In between those flickers of fear, anxiety and paranoia, however, N/Ps will lash out.  So you stay within your invisibility cloak by speaking with NH as few syllables about all this as possible, and continuously deflecting his questions and comments back to the T -- the authority figure now who's the gatekeeper to decisions about NH's future with his d.

If he's gonna redirect and attack the T, he does so on his own, stands on his own and deals with the fallout on his own.  With you ready to accept and deal with whatever changes come (or not) as a result of your having stepped off into that abyss and the woman who observed your NH and d together having reported something which should rightly have been reported.

The outcome options are somewhat clear:
- The T sees nothing, does nothing and NH continues his behavior with d, effectively postponing till later
- The T sees something, admonishes NH softly and little changes
- The T sees something, issues NH an ultimatum/instructions and demands monitored proactive changes
- The T sees something and moves for some kind of residence or custody change, and charges filed
- The T sees nothing and admonishes you to shut your mouth or risk being charged yourself and losing residency with/custody of d
- What other flavors am I missing here?

Have you, Imogene, discussed the various outcome options with the T?

NewWings4MeNow

[Julia]

Wings, in my experience, the way it goes is that the T will want to talk to the parents w/o the d being present. He/she will ask screening questions like.. does d regularly sleep with one parent alone (and why), does she have stomach aches or constipation (common in abuse), and then ask/ talk about the panty flashing... explain why it is of concern... and see what kind of cooperation/push back she gets from either parent. Her hope is for caring parents who are willing to get educated, but she will also evaluate how cooperative they are, how reactive, if they act defensive or guilty, etc, and she will use her experience to make assumptions based on all that which will affect her r/s with both Imogene and NH from here on out.

Julia

[Imogene]

My daughter will not be in the session, NewWings.  It will go down much as Julia describes.  The whole thing is scheduled to happen on Friday. 

I know what you're saying, Julia.  It's very hard for me to draw this boundary where I am actually putting faith in the therapist to do her job, so having my husband need me to protect him from her is a tempting role.  I am perhaps being too mollifying and, as you say, apologetic.  I wrote the therapist immediately upon reading both of your messages and reported his escalating panic about the meeting and his feelings of distrust.  I asked the therapist what I should do.  She said that I could validate how scary this situation was and tell him that if she really felt there was physical or sexual abuse, she would have notified CPS.  (See, this is where I don't think therapists fully understand what I am dealing with.  I know he's scared.  But I can't act like he is.  That would set trigger his defenses.)   

Tonight, as soon as my daughter was in bed, he asked me to write the therapist and say that we could meet to talk about other things regarding my daughter but did not want to deal with this.  I said, "'This' is the reason for the meeting."  Then I said, "You write her."  He said, "She would react badly if I was the one who said it." 

I really wish he would cut the crap.  He's starting to make me think that he abused her on some level, through the sheer force of his defensiveness.  Which is mildly disorienting.  I mean, anyone would feel ambushed by this turn of events.  But once the meeting is set up, shouldn't you be resigned to go and talk about what the woman saw and what the possible meaning of that is?

Could someone explain to me why just sitting down and discussing why a third party felt the need to comment on my daughter's behavior is so threatening to him?     

Meanwhile, I told lost it with my daughter when I picked her up from gymnastics camp today.  I stopped at the grocery store to buy her a snack on my way, because I knew she would be hungry, and she immediately started complaining in a rude tone about how I should have packed some crackers and cheese and saying that she lost her shirt but that she didn't feel like looking for it and just generally being bratty and joyless.  I started yelling at her and telling her I was sick of being treated with disrespect--see, this is why your posts resonate with me so much, NewWings--and then I crying for a minute out of anger and frustration.  It just seems so hard.  I can't explain the situation to her, and here I was furious with her, when I am really furious with him.  Please someone tell me there were times during the D&D when you yelled at your kids.  How did you cope with all the surplus anger that you couldn't direct at him?

[monique94550]

Dear Imogene,

Yes, a few months back I behaved very badly toward my son because I felt invisible, inconsequential.  He and his father were acting as though I didn't exist.  They made plans to do stuff on days that my son was supposed to be with me.  My son was 14 (he just turned 15), and he was behaving like a normal 14 yr old who is trying to juggle school and too many activities, and he was going through a self-centered period.  And his d*ckhead father was acting just like he always has.  It just hit me at a hard time when xNbf was also treating me like crap.

I just got fed up with my son and told him to go stay with his dad.  And then the next morning I gathered up all his dirty clothes off his floor (another reason for me to be angry), put them in a trash bag, and then drove over to his dad's house and left the bag inside the fence in their front yard.

Afterward I found out from the mom of a friend of my son's that my son was very sad because he thought I was kicking him out for good.

Now, the one thing I've always told him is that I will love him unconditionally and never leave him, and this particular incident seemed to make a liar out of me.

That's what caused me to start going to CoDA.  I needed to start taking responsibility for my own happiness and not leave it up to whether or not some person was treating me nicely or not nicely.  I don't want to do that to my son again, no matter what.

I need to have a talk with my son about what happened that weekend and take responsibility for treating him badly, and let him know what I'm doing so it doesn't happen again.

We're human.  We get pushed to our limits, and sometimes we boil over.  It happens.  The important thing is what we do to learn from our mistakes.

After reading Legs' post about not being awarded temporary spousal support, and now reading your latest post, I'm feeling kind of sad and resigned (with deep anger) about these evil N's.

Monique

[too_many]

Imongene, even if he's not 'doing' anything, he probably knows on some level that he's treating her somewhat like another woman, to get to you (because in his mind you 'deserve' it), and so does feel some guilt when called to account, hence the defensiveness and spewing?

What a baby, to try and get you to e-mail the T for him!  They're such cowards.

[Imogene]

Monique,
Thanks so much for that.  Your honesty is just what I need right now.  It made me feel less alone.  I have already made amends with my daughter, and she wants to talk some more about it tomorrow morning, but the problem is I can't absolutely promise her I won't get angry again, because I'm under such enormous stress, and we haven't even dealt with the separation yet.  And she does not deserve an angry mom, right now or ever!

too_many,
That's what my mother said.  She can be freakishly astute about human personality; it never fails to amaze me.  She also said that my husband's mother probably sexualized their relationship on some level, which is exactly what my therapist speculates.  I guess this just speaks to something I will never get about narcissistic people, how they insist on hiding from something that would be much easier (for me) to face head on. 

[NewWings4MeNow]

Imogene,

You asked why the third parties are threatening to NH.  I don't recall if you've yet read Lundy Bancroft but now would be a very good time for you to do so.  From a typical abuser perspective, they love secrets and don't like having lights shined on their dark underbellies revealing hidden practices, beliefs or plans.  (This was partly why XNH put d in therapy right at our split and why he took me endlessly to mediation -- he was trying to get d to say things about me/how I was treating her that he could use in his custody battle, or to get me to say things in mediation that he could use.  Neither happened.  And finally, years later, both d's therapist and the mediator (women) have witnessed enough and heard enough from me that they've come around from being XNH's proxies.)  When we were newly separated and XNH told me by phone that he wouldn't be returning d from visitation until the next day, I talked with police and they told me to have our security guard at the house for his curbside drop-off which I demanded he do that night.  The female guard had to block the driveway entrance and tell XNH that he'd have to drive through her to get onto the property.  He got out of his car and angrily said, "Why is security here?  We don't need security.  Nobody else should be involved in our lives."  (D-6 then came into the house and told me that XNH had referred to the guard, while still in his car with her, as a "pig" -- his protester parents' typical 1960s response to authority yet not a word I'd ever heard him use.)  Given his threats to/behaviors toward me later, I absolutely needed to have others' eyes and ears on what I was dealing with, and when I stated that exchange had to occur at school (next to the fire house) for my personal safety, nobody (except XNH) objected.  NET:  Things now are working in your house the way NH wants them to -- he's been puppeteering you and d to his desires and he doesn't want any of that to end because it benefits him.  Power and control over the women in his life.  HIS women.

As someone who didn't start out with d being an angry mom and then became one, I wouldn't tell my d that I would love her (meaning to be with her in her life daily) no matter what she did to me and I wouldn't tell her that she didn't deserve an angry mom ever.

My d has said some incredibly cruel things to me, right up there with XNH's d&d, and I have to be on her, unpopularly, like flypaper these days to demand and insist on her respect of me in my presence and in my home. 

That doesn't mean we aren't b*tchy toward each other, that d suddenly doesn't have PMS, that she isn't school-stressed or that I'm not job-stressed.  Nothing in the externals of our situations has changed.  But things in the internals of ourselves have changed, by plan and consciously.  I'm the mom, the adult, the head of household, and my d isn't 18, doesn't have that maturity and definitely doesn't make the greatest choices sometimes.  So I'm making her say/do things more often now, for her own good.  She's chafing, getting annoyed, but I now have the therapy appointments to fall back on and d can either deal with stuff with me alone or we two can take it to an appointment.  So far it's rather a deterrent. 

My messages to d are that it's not a healthy environment to treat those you love ongoing like they're less than the dirt and worse than strangers -- that it should be the exception rather than the rule.  That manners and baseline respect, without intentional meanness and cruelty, are essential for any people sharing intimate space.  That people have to want to spend time in each other's company and not just say so but actually live and prove it daily.  That having Voice is fine but that it has to be tempered with cooperativeness and compromise, not just "I" proclamations about how things are going to be.

That Rs take work, and either that work is done or the R fails. 

Imogene, it can take a lot of time, inner work and reading to get a handle on how your NH is operating.  You're still in the house so you represent a prime target for him to get to conversationally and psychologically to dilute the impact of what's happening real-time and to act as his proxy.  That's why I said it's important for you to come to terms with the fact that your R with your NH, right now, is adversarial, and that he'll see it that way.  Any conversation on R topics within your family triangle now are ammo for him.  Try to talk about a Web headline, a TV show, gardening -- anything but this with him, for a while. 

And yes, if there's any dancing, sashaying, back-peddling, projection, blame deflection, topic diversion, T malignment or sudden intensifying of his interactions with d -- all those are the smoking gun equivalent and defense mechanisms. 

Bottom line is quite simple:  People who haven't done anything wrong don't have anything to hide or defend against. 

(People who are ignorant and need to be educated, when they own up to as much, have the ability and are often given the opportunity to do so when it's determined their motivations are true.  That's the &)#)(!(@$ problem with N/Ps:  Determining their actual motivations/objectives/backstory/behind-the-scenes machinations.  And often Ts don't get it/see it/aren't willing to deal with it, so in this case it's GOOD that you have at least two pairs of eyes now on your NH (three including the woman who brought the issues up.)

Imogene, when your d is bratty and joyless, tell her so and invite her to stay quiet until she has anything else to say and until she behaves toward you with decency and respect.  Ask her if she wants you to mirror her and treat her exactly as she treats you, then do so and give her a taste of that medicine.  Tell her that when she's tired/hot/cranky it's not anybody else's fault or responsibility so she has no right to blame others, and that you will help her in a reasonable way if she's respectful and appreciative, or at least quiet until she calms down.  Tell her that a measure of a person's character is that they don't blame other people for things that are no one else's fault and that this will be the case all her life.  Tell her that you are not her servant or her doormat, that you're her mom and her protector, teacher, cheerleader, listener, hugger, sword and shield and her rock.  And yes, you finding joy elsewhere/through other avenues not including/not defined by your d will be absolutely essential right now and through your current difficulties.

And if she starts saying things like, "Why are you always mad at daddy when he and I are together?" and "Why don't you let me and daddy do what we want to together?" or other expressions that represent her defending NH and their private R, find ways to deflect with your answers like, "Honey, I'm not mad at all right now, am I?  Wanna bake some cookies?" and stay away from any you v. NH comparatives which will be conversational black holes with a girl her age and from which she could quote to your NH a/o the therapist.  Some suggestions ....

NewWings4MeNow

[Dandelion]

Dear Imogene

I am sorry I don't have the stamina to read the whole thread. But I would suggest you ask the therapist to call N and tell him about the joint therapy. Why should it be you, when it's her having some concern and feeling she is honor bound? Give her the number to him and let her call him...

Thinking of you
Mette

[monique94550]

Imogene,

May I suggest you go to the Co-Dependents Anonymous website and order the CoDA book AND the 12-step workbook.  Read the book, and start doing the step work, esp. step 1 "We admitted we were powerless over others - that our lives had become unmanageable."

If you can, Google "codependents anonymous meetings" in your county and state, and get yourself to a CoDA meeting.

This will help you take responsibility for your own happiness and not feel so powerless and angry.

In turn, your daughter will benefit.

 

Monique

[Imogene]

Monique,

Twelve step programs are not for me, but I have nothing but respect for people who use them; clearly they have helped you get a handle on things.  Between my therapist, my daughter's, this board, and my plan to get a MSW degree, though, I hope I can get a handle on some of this stuff.  My problem with my daughter is similar to NewWings--my husband is extremely permissive, with few values attached to his parenting, so it makes it difficult to parent with him in the picture, especially as he insists on making this a contest.  Plus, she is adopted, so there are other issues that make conventional parenting more complicated.

NewWings, That's one of my biggest struggles right now--how to set a boundary on the disrespectful behavior.  I'm going to reread your message and see what you say to your daughter to explain why respect is important.  I need some simple ways to reinforce these boundaries, without falling into lecture mode.

 

[betterdays]

Imogene, what is the T's tactic with d?  Does she pull for respect?  We had one who wanted d to tear down both parents, but the one I found stressed working together, and it really helped d deal with her anger.  The T knows N, and understood that d could not rely on or work with him.  You need someone in your corner, but T's are usually not prone to taking sides.  Still, it should be clear that you are the healthy parent.

[talia]

That's one of my biggest struggles right now--how to set a boundary on the disrespectful behavior.  I'm going to reread your message and see what you say to your daughter to explain why respect is important.  I need some simple ways to reinforce these boundaries, without falling into lecture mode.

Hi Imogene,

A few months ago I had a discussion with my sister about this very topic! My sister.at the age of 47, adopted my niece who is now 11. Sister is the typical older over- indulging parent. Ya, my niece has been, to a degree, treated as a "golden child". My niece has begun that irritating pre-teenish(?) behavior of "rolling her eyes", talking back, etc...Being disrespectful towards mom. My sister explained to me how she wants to be able to "talk" to niece about her behavior. These are my sister's words to me...

"Well, I tell her how much talking like that hurts mommy and that it's not very nice....mommy loves you very much and you shouldn't talk to me that way,etc..."....Okay, she keeps having these type talks repeatedly. This is where MY eyes started to roll! LOL My sister can't tolerate the thought of my niece "not liking her" or being angry with her. What I've noticed about my sister is she's very patient with my niece. She'll repeat herself and repeat herself, let things slide.....until she finally does lose her patience. My niece definitely knows my sister has a long rope, so to speak. Also, my sister rescues my niece.For example,and this type thing happens frequently, my niece will forget something she needs for school...or dance class, etc. My sister has left work, driven home to retrieve whatever has been forgotten, and bring it to niece...What I'm getting at, is there are no consequences....

Anyway, we found some websites that explained the concept of setting boundaries, limits, consequences. My sister is now trying something different when my niece is disrespectful. There's a consequence. No need for discussion as to why it's not okay as that has already been explained in detail. What we read is that this has to be consistent...all the time and not to expect an immediate change, but that over time....the new rule/boundary will sink in. This applies to other behaviors as well...a consequence for not doing what she's been told to do..like cleaning up her room,etc. A privilege is taken away. Also, she's trying rewarding and praising her for things that she does do..especially when done without prompting.

My niece is really a terrific girl. Does great in school.etc...And she's respectful outside of the home...It's mainly with my sister that respect isn't always there. I don't see this as my niece's fault, but more my sister's...

I know it has to be hard if you're husband isn't on board...UGH. But, I think your daughter can learn that certain behaviors will not be acceptable when she's with you.

Here's one link my sister found helpful. I understand your daughter is younger,but you might find it relative.

Disrespect, Talking Back, Bad Attitude

talia

[Imogene]

Thanks, Talia and betterdays.

To some extent, the problem IS me lately, because I have been afraid to discipline my daughter much at all the last few months.  So I end up in your sister's position, Talia.  Prior to that I was a very good parent in terms of setting structure and developing good habits.  I have read many parenting books and websites and implement a method similar to that described in your link.  Because my daughter is adopted and I didn't work outside the home, I probably have read more than most--not to say that makes me a better parent, believe me.  My husband did not participate in the tough parts of parenting, but mostly he did not interfere, either.  He just tended to spoil her and "help" her by doing for her simple things that she could do herself.   

But since the D&D, and somewhat even before that, here is what would happen when I disciplined her in front of my husband (when her attitude is the worst).  HE rolled his eyes, has overtly "taken her side," yelled at me for trying to "manipulate" her, and even laughed.  He attempts to bond with her by swooping in and "rescuing" her from bad mommy--you know, mommy acting like a responsible parent.  I could write about this for hundreds of pages.  It makes me want to kill him.  And I know my daughter is getting part of that frustration, especially since she knows she is in an entitled position when he's around, and her contempt for me can be huge, very adult, and really triggering. 

I know she's a kid, and 90 percent of the time I take it in stride.  But sometimes it really gets me down.  I react personally to it, and I react out of the feeling of helplessness brought on by the knowledge that he might never change, and I could lose her.  This is something I talk about in therapy a lot.

As far as her therapy goes, the therapist can't get her to talk.  They play games the entire session, or she plays with the therapist's dog.  When the therapist attempts to direct any conversation, however inocuous, my daughter clams up and refuses to engage.  And after those session, she is sullen and can develop a massive headache in the evening.  Honestly, here at home she has been talking to me less and less as well.  She used to tell me a lot more, though she's always been quiet about her feelings.  She talks to my husband more and more, though I'm not sure about what. 

[talia]

Dear Imogene,

This would get me down, too. I sure wish I knew of some strategies to use when your H sabotages your efforts. How do you respond when he does this? All I can think of is to change the response. Obviously, there's a huge payoff in devaluing you this way, to see you frustrated. I think of the word "sadistic" ,even, when you said he laughs. That's really sick.

Don't give up hope I don't think you'll lose your daughter. You're right, he may never change, but you will have a greater influence on your daughter in the future when the living all together dynamics change.

You're doing the best you can right now and I applaud you for ALL that you are doing. I wish I could be of more help.

hugs,
talia

[NewWings4MeNow]

Imogene,

I really do understand the difficulty and emotional torment of the situation you're in.  I went from being d's primary parent for six years to being treated like an employee or a house worker and lower than low.  XNH was overtly competing to become d's primary parent and take that job from me, then his objective was to completely eliminate me from d's life and mind and heart and replace me by telling d to call his two-month gf "mama" etc. 

They might as well rip one's motherly guts out and smash them under a train.  I felt that my d was simply being STOLEN from me (and WoN old-timers can attest to this).

I'm so sorry this is happening to you now, at such a tender age with your d when your R should be getting stronger.  Hopefully whatever is going on that needs to be brought out into the open will happen more quickly than not.

NewWings4MeNow

[JennyWren]

Hi Imogene, the situation you describe whereby your own natural parenting techniques are not being allowed to prevail because of the interference and opposition of your NH sound very familiar to me. This is no help at all right now, but do bear in mind that when you get to a point where you are parenting your daughter living under a separate roof from your NH this problem can be improved no end. Your daughter will not be able to be a part of Ndad`s revolutionary army. Because he won`t be there. Sure he will interfere as best he can from afar. But you will not have the stress and pressure of NHs daily presence.

My NH was not terribly good at playing this game, though he tried REALLY hard with the "gang up on Mum" thing. His best efforts at divide and conquer never came to much because my daughters never really had an emotional bond with their Dad...something I don`t understand fully yet. Well, I mean, partly it`s obvious....he is a self-centred N. But how he failed so dismally to ensnare them in his N web as he did me I do not know. He tried his best to undermine me, stir up rebellion against my setting limits and so on. And he had SOME success. And for that reason, I know there is nothing quite like the way your blood boils as you watch your child manipulated by N nonsence. And you are getting a gut-ful right now.

The attitude (eye-rolling and stuff) that you describe works so well because it is right down at child`s level and really attractive to children. They do it all the time, and see it all the time. It is exactly the same "friendly club" set-up that my NH went for. At a time when your daughter will naturally want to test the boundaries she has a partner in crime. Thick as theives. The only counter I can think of is that although the N companionship is intoxicating, it is not real....and I would hope that with enough of "the real thing"....your love....as well as fun with her peer group....the Nworld will not be overpowering. With the further involvement of Ts in the way you have engineered, you are doing all you can do in a painful situation.

This is such a stressful situation for you Imogene. I hope you are taking care of yourself.

Jen