The more I learn...the more I realise how frightening it must be to be an N

[Legs]

Lucifer said something early on after I'd discovered his treachery. He said, "It will be easier just to strat over with someone new."

I was like WTF? Your're 78 years old and you've known me for 32 years (now 34) and he knows how true blue I am. How could he say that? Finally, I realized he was right. I would never ever see him the way I seen him before his stupid self-disclousure and sice I couldn't see him with an "imperfection?, then he wanted me gone. Pretty sure he wanted me dead and gone. I still think he might have been poisoning me  beacause I lost 88 pounds in seven months and was covered with unexplainable bruises as big as my hand or larger.


His first wife divorced hom for adultery, and his second wife because quite ill very suddenly, went to the ER, was checked into the hospital and apparently she never spoke again and dies in six weeks. She was in her early 40's. Oh, course...........now I know he lied about everything and he never told me firsr first wife divorced him for adultery....I found the paperwork when I was moving out.

And HOW long and how many times am I going to need to tell this thing again? I swear I still think part of me doesn't believe it. I know it's true. I know he's a monster and mayne he was born that way and maybe he knew I'd be trusting and a good worker bee, so he spun his N-asty web and invited the pretty young widow into his world. I didn't think I was pretty then, but looking back I wasn't that bad.

Ok, later chicks....am off to paint my face and drive to the courthouse.

Legs

[bellelang83]

Legs, "It will be easier just to start over with someone new" - It's things like that they say that just make you want to inch slowly towards the door and make a quick exit. It's so chilling their remarks and lack of feeling for their partners. They don't seem to have an ounce of feeling in them whatsoever. It was particularly chilling that you found out he did away with his second wife and had ended up in hospital with mysterious bruising. It's lucky you got away from him.

[NewWings4MeNow]

Legs,

Yesterday I spoke with a gal in the dog park who was educated in the midwest, lived in New England like I did then came to Southern California. 

Her XNH divorced her after 40 years of marriage, six years ago.  Triathlete, typical somatic N "ego" driven (she said) who went for a younger woman, she said he was never threatening and didn't commit crimes against her.  She DID say that she'd finally noticed his pattern that each woman he's been with (he's now on his third) had "use value" for him -- she was for kids, the next woman was for his athletic life, his third woman is Asian and for his business-but-submissive-woman life.  And she said that he actually commented about each one having her use based on whatever he was into at that stage.  She was stomach-punched at the realization of having been used like that for so long by someone who clearly didn't care about a more attached, loyal R.

She said that she'd seen him through 20 triathlons, being there to support him.  Said that she'd created a plaque listing each one of his finishes and brought it to a dinner out they had to celebrate their anniversary.  It was at that dinner that he dropped the bombshell on her, and then welcomed friends to join them as buffer so she couldn't even get upset. 

They have three boys, the last still young with a 16 year age difference.  The D has thrown their family asunder and the youngest has had ADD/psych problems ever since. 

She lived in my former town and KNEW of XNH's "special male friend".  She said that when they moved to the town in the '70s a home was $200K and a fixer.  Said that after some years everybody who moved in had to be a "gazillionaire" and she definitely saw the change in the town's character and the behavior of its people to a LOAD more entitled and all the typical Southern California stuff with behaviors.  She wasn't the least bit surprised at what I told her about the racy crowd, the drugs, the sex, any of it. 

Anyway, my story for you is about the pervasiveness of "use value" and how it goes hand-in-hand with lying-by-withholding deception.

I'm sorry you're going through this but not surprised that it lingers and affects you so much still.

NewWings4MeNow

[monique94550]

(((JennyWren))),

  It's been my experience that absence makes the heart grow fonder with respect to my xN.  When I am with him, I pretty much despise every second of it.  But when I stay away a week or two weeks or a month, my heart begins to soften, and I begin to "remember" things differently from reality.  I begin to feel compassion toward the damaged 18 yr old boy who went to Vietnam and became even more damaged.  I forget the stark truth of the reality of the damage he inflicts on me without fail.

I hope you're not on that particular  .

Hugs,

Monique

[talia]

Dear Jenny,

This was my journey in healing. What a complex process it was to reach a destination of peace and acceptance in mind, body and soul. As I began to wrap my brain around the foreign concept of NPD it restored a measure of sanity. I finally had an explanation for what I'd experienced in this relationship. After years of confusion and repeated heartbreaks, I could finally make sense of the craziness of it all. At the same time that I was wrapping my brain around it all, I was wrapping my heart around it all. What this meant for me, what this meant for him. Yes, it was horrifying as I slowly digested this information. My thoughts and emotions from that time to now are vastly different. My heart broke for him as the realizations sunk in. Not fully understanding how defended he was against reality,as my education in NPD had only just begun, I mistakenly believed that there just had to be a way to get through to him. Yes, I believed he was suffering. Like I said, my heart was aching not only for myself, but for him as well. His abandonment triggered PTSD symptoms. In summary, the recovery and healing process was quite the emotional rollercoaster ride. All to say, as others have shared, that what you're experiencing is normal even though it feels awful. In my book, NPD is a tragedy. For those involved there is no escape from the detrimental effects it has on one's mind, one's soul, one's body.

My experience will differ from those that cannot completely eliminate the N person from their lives. Thankfully, slowly with time, my heart healed as I emotionally detached.As I continued to learn about NPD, the context of what I was learning didn't trigger the emotional responses as it did in the earlier days of my recovery and healing. I became more focused on healing myself from the past. Delving into the issues of what caused my being so vulnerable, so bonded to this person. The healing process was complex for me and it took a long time.

Today there is peace and acceptance. It was a long time coming. Be kind to yourself, Jenny. Whatever you're feeling and thinking from day to day is okay. Your feelings/emotions and thoughts are never wrong. There is no need to explain, apologize, or attempt to feel differently. Your journey is your own. There will be similaraties and differences in everyone's journey. Thoughts shared depending on where everyone might happen to be on their own journey. Differences in feelings and thoughts with regards to compassion, empathy, forgiveness or not. For myself, it was everchanging as time went on. And what is right for you at any particular time, is right and okay. My wish for you is that more good days than bad will come soon. As I know you are not finished with the divorce process and do share children, I understand that peace and acceptance will most likely not arrive anytime real soon. As you wrap your brain and your heart around it, know that it's hugely complex and digesting it all takes time. It will trigger different emotions and thoughts each step of the way. Not only are you processing the context of the history of your relationship, you are also processing the present as new developments unfold. Don't be hard on yourself.

Hugs,
t

[fdh]

  Jenny has me giggling here over the algebra of N!
( +  ) = (wait now... need my sunglasses) 

As monique noted, when I am not around  exNH, I remember him well. It is all most as if the Nmath of my mind views him like this:  =    +   + ignorant that the last few years,  =  +  +  .  I forget the NH abuse stuff that had me  and on the  for a few years... but only for a moment! 

I think  is ill. But I doubt his mother or father see him like this. However, years ago, in one of my two conversations with  (now the new wife), she revealed that indeed, she felt  her boyfriend (my NH) "needed help". My best guess is that my complete awfulness (in their view of the world), is essential to their relationship.  has rescued  because she can "make him happy" (her words to me), and I can not.    would be correct that I most assuredly can NOT make  happy.

I do hope they will be happy together for decades. But, I am not betting any money on this.   

I figure it is just a matter of  before  +  =   .

Know what I mean!

[CZBZ]

Hi all you kind and tender women,

I'm coming in on the tail end of this great thread (love your emoticons, fdh! ) and not to disturb the peace or upset anyone or anything however, the title of the thread is cruelly appropriate. Narcissists do live in a state of hyper-vigilance, terrified of exposure. Terrified of their unconscious becoming conscious and therefore: real. Terrified of recognizing their envy (sense of inferiority), intent to hurt others to empower themselves. Their defectiveness.

What is imperative is to say that narcissism is not well-understood. NPD, as a categorical disorder, may be eliminated from the DSM-V (a truly stupid move if you ask me but nobody is  ) and people confuse non-clinical narcissism with pathological narcissism and then one more conflict: pathological narcissism and sociopathy. Making sense of the cacophony of information available on the web is taxing, thoroughly confusing for people who are usually in a state of panic because narcissists, clinical or non-clinical, destroy people's lives.

I said, "Narcissists, whether clinical or non-clinical, destroy people's lives." Any degree of narcissism has the potential to harm other people and this includes everyday hubristic narcissistic celebrities, politicians, or your average blowhard in the local pub.

The reason it's frightening to be a narcissist is because contrary to some allegations, Narcissists Do Have Feelings. They ARE afraid, sad, lonely, depressed, alienated, insecure, fragile, empty and whatever other feelings normal people identify with and therefore, empathize with the narcissist. My X was miserable, harmed by an abusive childhood and he suffered a lot. Enough that one could say he became clinically depressed when his older age didn't permit him to distract himself with hyper-activity. He was in pain, excruciating pain for awhile--during his temporary-escape-from-reality when he was D&Ding his family. I believe his pain became so great that an OW offered relief and desperate as he was, it worked. As he said, "OW or suicide." He had no choice.

Yea, Ns are drama queens, too. 

What I am describing is clinical narcissism, an elaborate False Self that must be maintained otherwise the narcissist has NO SELF. This is why they are so fearful of exposure. You attack their False Self and it is life-threatening. So in my experience, clinical narcissists DO suffer and they may even seek treatment though as you can see, once a skilled therapist gets close to the original wound, the narcissist's defenses rigidify and he/she leave treatment. Not kindly either! Then they start their emotional pain cycle all over again...always sobbing over their childhood and always in a state of "Escape or Suicide". The escape might be drugs, as is frequently the case.

When the False Self decompensates to this point (and it may happen when they are older, or facing a crisis of some kind and can't cope as they have their entire lives), other people run the risk of over-empathizing with them. Our caretaking instincts come out and we feel sorry for the narcissist who is relieved somewhat of his/her pain because of our compassion. We sooth them into feeling better, even a little bit, just enough to feel shamed for their neediness and then we reap the rewards of our good deeds. See the cycle? Your empathy is reason for punishment because empathy and pity connote a weakness in the narcissist, a need.He 'needs' you  and this triggers narcissistic defenses of self-reliance.

In order to restore superiority and invulnerability, the narcissist hurts you in order to restore his/her dominance. Destroy the source of their pain and they feel better.

In my opinion, it's harder to leave a narcissist who cares about people and is capable of love, than it is to leave a sociopath who does NOT care about other people, is incapable of love, does not have feelings for others. To the sociopath/psychopath, other people are 'patsys' to be mocked for having emotions and believing in something as stupid as 'love'. They are ruthless, heartless, callous and 'defective'. Yet, they view themselves as superior to others! The degree of cruelty and malice they are willing to inflict makes it pretty darn easy to see them as rat bazturds and not feel sorrow for them.

Narcissists have feelings and are capable of love; but cannot experience or interpret other people’s feelings because they lack empathy. There is no emotional exchange but the narcissist ‘thinks’ he understands. Narcissists are in considerable psychological pain and do not understand what’s wrong. Narcissists are also capable of loyalty and they  participate in social organizations and such because they care. They might even go to therapy looking for relief but when the 'unconscious' is made conscious, they'll sue their therapist and cry victim. The perpetual state of victimhood is how I view the narcissistic pain disorder. They don't know how to escape because escape shatters the only 'self' they have.

Narcissists are 'easy marks' because they need their fragile egos to be stroked...that makes the midlife maN an easy target for manipulative strokers. And you bet that makes me feel sorry for them because most midlife narcissists have been respectable, honest and hard-working people though they always had this sense that they were missing something. They are bored, without emotional content fulfilling their lives. Plus, while it's been suggested there is a biological component for NPD, most theories attribute pathological narcissism to child abuse, early trauma. Who wouldn't feel sorry for them? You'd have to have a heart of stone not to care.

It's just that Caring gets you hurt. so you can't. And that is why I believe it is much harder to leave a narcissist than ruthless sociopath. You have to do the opposite of what you would normally do in a healthy relationship.

I hope this wasn't too rambling or confusing... There is so much information on the internet and we still lack specific distinctions between narcissists, malignant narcissists, antisocial personality disorder and sociopathy/psychopathy.

If you feel sorry for the psychological pain your soon-to-be-x husband is experiencing, then that is a beautiful miracle...The miracle of human empathy.

I still have moments of sadness for my X and his childhood and the self-destructive way he hurt everyone who ever gave a shite about his life.


Hugs,
CZ

[CZBZ]

There are conflicting articles in our research library about narcissists who suffer and those who don't. If you examine whether the article focuses on social narcissism or clinical narcissism, it will help clear up the confusion. Even so, we'll still be confused. Get ten psychologists in a room and ask each of them to give their theory of narcissism and my guess is that you'll get ten different versions.

I hope research about clinical and non-clinical narcissism will give us better answers and guidelines! Until then, find the theory that suits your N the best and learn as much as you can. For many of us, understanding brings peace.

If you were with one of those OVERT braggarts, don't assume the shy person refusing to take a leadership role, is NOT a narcissist. And vice versa. One theorist I was listening to this morning said the defining distinction of narcissism was 'lack of empathy'. The next one said, "Narcissists can empathize. The defining characteristic is their grandiosity." 

Oopps...gotta run!!!

Hugs,
CZ

"NPD was linked to ratings of depression, anxiety, and several measures of impairment both concurrently and at 6-month follow-up. However, the relations between NPD and psychological distress were (a) small, especially in concurrent measurements, and (b) largely mediated by impaired functioning. NPD was most strongly related to causing pain and suffering to others, and this relationship was significant even when other Cluster B personality disorders were controlled. These findings suggest that NPD is a maladaptive personality style which primarily causes dysfunction and distress in interpersonal domains. The behavior of narcissistic individuals ultimately leads to problems and distress for the narcissistic individuals and for those with whom they interact." ~NPD by Miller and Campbell

[Bruna]

HI ladies, interesting thread
                                        I feel compelled to answer...  the fact that they might suffer always upset me a great deal... it still does. I'm not sure if  my exN did or didn't suffer, I can't really tell because he never OPENED up to me. If he suffered it was not on a conscious level. He did everything possible TO SHIELD HIMSELF FROM HIS OWN FEELINGS, especially the painful ones. He seemed impenetrable, anything would kind of slide over his thick skin without reaching him inside. I believed, when we first met that he had a soft core inside, it's like i could see the hurt child within, it might have been my illusion? Again I can't tell, he did everything possible to avoid expressing feelings. I felt sorry for him and i am ashamed of that, and then with time i had to detach from him, had to become cold, because enmeshing too much was hurting my soul. By detaching from him I became sort of cold myself, a  bit like him, and that scared me, still does. That was the price tag I had to pay for trying to help him. I could say I have tried, unsuccessfully to save his life.
So, dear CZ, you say they hurt? Apart from playing victim, is that pain conscious to them? My exN suffered from alexitimia, he didn't even know what he felt down deep inside, because he didn't want to go down deep inside.
Bruna

[JennyWren]

This last couple of days have been a real bumpy-ride-on-a-bicycle-with-flat-tyres-over-some-porcupines!!!!

I have had one of those too-quick quantum-shifts of learning you sometimes get when something falls into place. Once again I am very grateful for all the input of different experiences and different stages people have been through/are going through. And for fdh`s emoticon creativity!! Where there`s a  there`s a 

I think to crystalize my current feelings on my own NH.....I am realising how mangled his mind is. Like Monique says...it is easier for me to be generous in my empathy towards him when he is not giving me grief. I NEVER wish him back. But I do wish he could see his own issues and help himself.

I know I am still clambering out of a very thick fog, and am going to be disorientated for a good while.

CZ - the mind-numbing confusion of the N literature is indeed a frustration. But I can see the sense in trawling through for what fits....you can only go with what`s there. Though I might wish for a nice handy guide book along the lines of a dog-care book "101 breeds of Narcissist...their characteristics and handling techniques....a manual for restoring your sanity"...That hallowed volume does not exist. But my NH does. And I know his behaviour better than anyone. It`s just a matter of UNDERSTANDING what I know. If you see what I mean!!

Talia - I am finding my emotions to be rather haywire with changes in my understanding level. And I am definately guilty of trying to tame them with logic and "tidy them up" so to speak. But I am beginning to accept that whatever I feel is valid at any one moment. Thankyou for describing your journey. It is immeasurably helpful to hear that there can be a peace ahead.

Thankyou all for your patience 

[JennyWren]

Bruna, just picked up your comment as I posted mine! And you reminded me (saying about becoming sort of cold yourself) of how I had a really nasty wake-up call about two years ago....before NHs MLC...where he was lying about oh-so-terribly-ill with the man-flu.....and of course Nman-flu at that. I remember looking at him...and actually thinking..."I`ll get him a nice warm drink for his oh-so-sore-throat"...and THEN thinking "NO!....last week when I was ill he did BOG ALL to look after me"....and then the HORRIBLE realisation that I was in danger of behaving like a selfish pig just because he did. I got him the stupid drink anyway. But not because I wanted to. Because I was afraid of who I was becoming if I didn`t.

Their N behaviour can not help but alter yours. You just can`t go on being "normal" with a person who behaves so weirdly. And with emotional closeness......forget it! You can`t get it from them. And then they blame you because it isn`t there.

[fdh]

CZBZ ... you are so spot on re "my"  .

They ARE afraid, sad, lonely, depressed, alienated, insecure, fragile, empty and whatever other feelings normal people identify with and therefore, empathize with the narcissist.

I am pretty sure this is the inner world of exNH. In the months before he met the  and turned into the monster personna, he said he did not know who he was, and that he had anxiety and fear. He seemed fragile, and empty, expecting the kids and I to fill him up. His behaviors became more and more outrageous ... and he was such a drama queen (a term our teen boys used for him). Depending upon where he was in his cycle of being, he seemed to try on different personality types. For about 2 years he became like a caricature of a gay man in his movements, actions, and speaking. Prior to this gay-man act, there was the "John Wayne" / Clint Eastwood (Dirty Harry) man, where he seemed excessively macho, and stupidly fearless. One of my friends remarked "I think he is all mix-up inside and does not know who he is from hour to hour". Indeed, one of the things that seems to have happened with his meeting the  is that he feels he knows who he is now. In fact, he let it slip just prior to our divorce being final, that he finally knows who he is!


My X was miserable, harmed by an abusive childhood and he suffered a lot. Enough that one could say he became clinically depressed when his older age didn't permit him to distract himself with hyper-activity. He was in pain, excruciating pain for awhile--during his temporary-escape-from-reality when he was D&Ding his family. I believe his pain became so great that an OW offered relief and desperate as he was, it worked. As he said, "OW or suicide." He had no choice.

I asked my  NH if he felt depressed or suicidal. He did not answer. Only that he had to leave our marriage in order to survive. This tears me up ... I do feel sorry for him.

Yea, Ns are drama queens, too.

Oh .. gawd. Dearest  became a headline drama queen! I think it was to be "seen". It did not matter if his stories were true. Only that when he was at the center of anyones attention, for whatever the reason, he existed in that moment. But the dramaqueen stuff was something new. It came in about 2 years before he left our marriage, and most assuredly, it was not a constant with him.

What I am describing is clinical narcissism, an elaborate False Self that must be maintained otherwise the narcissist has NO SELF.

I tremendously appreciate this website, and the insights everyone provides here. The sense of many selves, none of which are a stable "real self", seems true for  . I base this upon some of the things he has said, and some of the weird actions and mental places he seemed to go, before he left our family.

I do have much compassion and empathy for him. Though, not standing in his shoes, I recognize I can not fully comprehend what it must be like to be him.

I am sad that he must blame me for what he is feeling now. Sad too, that his family of origin seems to be encouraging this ... along with the  . Perhaps having me as the awful ex wife   , gives them all a sense of stability, and explains to them, this weirdness in  (scapegoats are so convenient... yes?).

This is why they are so fearful of exposure. You attack their False Self and it is life-threatening.
Indeed.. I can see this must be true. The men who called our home to say my husband was having an affair with their wife, became objects    wanted to destroy. He actually voiced that he had their phone numbers, and he could find out where they lived if he wanted, and go kill them... and no one would find out !!!     When I called him out on the absurdity and inappropriateness of this, he recovered, claiming he would never do this. But these men were so outrageous in their accusations. And this brought so much pain to me and the kids (the even kind and helpful    ?).

The truth (which    could not hear) was that I was relieved others called him out on his excessively intimate behaviors with other woman. I had been complaining about this for some time, and he simply said I was being controlling and unreasoned. Yada yada yada. No ability to step outside himself, and see that maybe, he was being outside the boundaries of appropriate for everyone else.

So in my experience, clinical narcissists DO suffer and they may even seek treatment though as you can see, once a skilled therapist gets close to the original wound, the narcissist's defenses rigidify and he/she leave treatment.

For several reasons, including the potential of losing his job, it is very doubtful  exNH will ever seek treatment of any kind. So, I think the  is his drug of choice. While I do not have much appreciation for women who skank on married men ( is  s 3rd married fella to stalk and capture, and all these men had children at home), my intuition says something is akimbo in this  s background... and she is working it through with  .

Perhaps   +  can feed off each other, and MAYBE
( ) there will be a  miraculous "healing".   

When the False Self decompensates to this point (and it may happen when they are older, or facing a crisis of some kind and can't cope as they have their entire lives), other people run the risk of over-empathizing with them. Our caretaking instincts come out and we feel sorry for the narcissist who is relieved somewhat of his/her pain because of our compassion. We sooth them into feeling better, even a little bit, just enough to feel shamed for their neediness and then we reap the rewards of our good deeds. See the cycle? Your empathy is reason for punishment because empathy and pity connote a weakness in the narcissist, a need.He 'needs' you  and this triggers narcissistic defenses of self-reliance.

Oh yeah... I see the cycle. It is very seductive for us care giving, loving, "good wife" types. 
(sigh)

As always CZBZ and others here ... thanks for the insights. The  is beginning to make a bit of sense.

[Bruna]

Oh Jenny
             I still have "temperature" problems. It's my body that remembers that, not my mind, and my body can't even respond well to love! I hate that, the coldness, the suspicion I experience with other men and the fear of being like him! I had become a little like him, selfish, in order to live and then in order to leave! That really isn't my nature, how hatefull!!!! I tried to be civil and kind to the end, didn't succeed very well... anyway. I was sorry for him still am, thanks ladies for validating even that!
LOVE
Bruna

[confused]

CZ,

Thanks for that. It rings true for me as well.

It's such a complex situation--having been enshrined, then D and D'd by one of these people.

It's taking a long time to unravel the complex ties that my X had attached to me.

But, throughout it all, I remember saying to him--feeling--that he was frightened. When I mentioned that to him, he acted like he was angry. It's easy to feel sorry for him, but important for me to remember that he is really a monster, capable of incredible, cruel acts.

[CZBZ]

"So, dear CZ, you say they hurt? Apart from playing victim, is that pain conscious to them? My exN suffered from alexitimia, he didn't even know what he felt down deep inside, because he didn't want to go down deep inside."

Dear Bruna (and all),

Not feeling anything and not wanting to go deep down inside, fits Alexander Lowen's description of narcissism in his book, 'Denial of the True self". Getting narcissists to 'feel' has been the goal, even in pop-psychology or women's magazines.    We assume (as we've been taught) that an innocent child lies within and 'feelings' will melt layers of defenses so the nice guy can come out and play. Did you ever see The Ring? It's one of those horror movies that should be required viewing for psyche degrees. You can free that inner child, literally lift her from the well, but she might kill you for it. At least we're questioning old ideas because maybe, just maybe---there IS no self sustaining the pathological narcissist! What a thought, eh? You aren't liberating them from 'denied feelings'...you are annihilating the only self they have.

I hesitated even posting about narcissists & pain because it's counterproductive in a separation process. Too early in our healing, our 'groomed' behavior entices us to worry more about comforting the narcissist than ourselves. Our innate empathy and compassion prompts us to remain bound to the wounded narcissist and forget about ourselves---'cuz we're tough and we can take it and the poor widdle narcissist needs our help. Too early in our healing, we lose ground once again and focus on the narcissist's suffering as PRIMARY---ourselves being 'secondary' in importance and value. ( a way to distract ourselves from our pain) And, too early in our healing, we lie to ourselves about our 'power' to change existing circumstances. In other words, we deceive ourselves and end up, one more time, in the boxing ring with the N who is using his bare fists and we're wearing soft gloves...because of course, we limit our aggression and don't wanna hurt anyone if we don't have to. Narcissists lack restraint on their aggression if they feel threatened *such as shattering their false self* or insulted *because they're so superior and entitled*. And, they don't feel the healthy guilt normal people do; which means: they won't feel as badly about giving you a broken nose as YOU would feel for bruising their ego.

As in all things I suppose, 'everything in it's own time' and each of us will arrive at our own conclusions about the particular relationship WE had and how theorists are defining specific disorders. What someone calls it makes no difference. A rat turd by any other name smells the same. Ya know? Psychologists can change the name, categorize it differently, put a fresh spin on it, even list specific criteria for an indubitable tick-the-box disorder with a new name no one has ever heard of before--but, the content is the same. The behaviors are the same. As each person writes his/her story on WoN, the specifics are unique but the underlying disorder is the same. If we listen carefully to one another, we'll see the Pattern to every narcissistic relationship whether it's called Butthead Syndrome or GloriousMeDisorder or NotOtherwiseSpecified Axis II with narcissistic traits and alexithymia.

The reason why I posted this reply is because of myself.   I know what I witnessed. I am not prone to high denial and I am not delusional. I do not have a codependent personality though I learned codependent behaviors in order to survive. I am a fairly clear, straightforward woman with a lot of empathy and self-restraint. In other words, I KNOW what I experienced and tire of being told it was an illusion. Even on the Internet, people get these ideas going and pass 'em on like Whispering Down TheLane Games.

"Narcissists don't suffer! They don't have feelings! You were being manipulated!"

Ah well, there is truth to that. Still, I cannot deny what I witnessed for thirty years.

I believe people are confusing psychopathy with narcissism. Especially from Sam Vaknin's influence---a man with NPD who put his big foot on the Internet and stepped on the accelerator---drawing as much attention to himself as possible. Many of us were misled by his autobiography and have 'relearned' a more accurate description of narcissism than the Horrid-Awful-Big-Bad-Psychopathic-Malignant-Narcissist as standard measure for all narcissists.

Is the Malignant Narcissist suffering? According to literature about psychopaths, NO. It is a ploy to extract pity and if they do feel psychological pain, they step on the neighbors cat to feel better. Feeling blue? Light somebody's house on fire. Hit your wife. Beat the kids. Embezzle your hated boss's profits. This is how they deal with internal emptiness experienced as boredom. Start a fight and step back to watch the drama unfold.

Most people on our forum are dealing with Garden Variety narcissists or people who would not qualify for clinical narcissism (NPD). So for me and I really should write on my blog about this, even forums can be as invalidating as the general public if forum members insist that narcissists do not suffer, do not have feelings, are incapable of love or loyalty, thus invalidating other people's experiences. They are telling people like myself that I was delusional for thirty years, which no, I'm not.  If my X were not narcissistic though, he would have been able to work through his childhood---the problems in our marriage---his extreme issues with authority figures and yes, the work environment.

NPD is long-term so if someone exhibits 'high' narcissistic traits,  it should never be ignored. Get treatment as soon as possible to curtail a developing pathology. Does that make sense? the more someone's narcissism is allowed to take root in the brain, the more automatic the behavior. It's like depression. You can tough it out but you may end up clinically depressed as a result.

My X had many narcissistic traits and may have gotten a whopping high NPI score if they'd had such a thing when we were young. Overtime though, his narcissistic traits rigidified because 'escaping pain' was more seductive than working through it. PLUS, i don't believe narcissists have the capacity to work through their suffering the way more fortunate people can. When Ns hurt as deeply as people must to break through maladjusted behaviors, narcissism takes over and rescues them from the pain! That means when YOU think they are getting better because they're digging in (as you have) and they're going to therapy (as you have) and they're reading spiritual self-help books (as you have), YOU will be caught off-guard when they suddenly split reality and escape with drugs or sex or high debts or pie-in-the-sky get rich quick schemes or risky activities or anything that that masks the pain they cannot heal. And this reaction is NOT voluntary...it is unconscious. See the impossibility of curing NPD?

I also believe that if the partner cannot extricate herself from the situation quickly, the frightened narcissist will become ruthless...even aggressive enough to be classified as Malignant. This is because she is relying on normal relationship skills which increase the narcissist's resentment and/or hostility! Anybody argue with that point? When our normal reactions do not work and we don't understand pathological narcissism, our situation can be destructive and dangerous. It is unfathomable that a lifelong partner could turn on his wife/partner so quickly and ruthlessly but that is why narcissism is in the DSM for mental disorders. It is Not Normal. It is not about Us. That's hard to GET but the sooner we do, the safer we'll all be.

I pictured my husband as a wounded Rottweiler. Everybody knows, or they learn the hard way, not to touch them or even get close. Call the professionals and cry behind safe doors. Is the wounded Rottweiller frightened? He's certainly defending himself as if he were.


Hugs,
CZ

[betterdays]

You nailed it, CZ. If they could have changed, they would have, and the rottweiler analogy is true.   I keep saying N feels things fleetingly, and does not really recall things normally.  He is like watching a movie--you touch the screen and there's nothing there. Yet, it seemed so real, you are left with the experience and memory of what you thought was a r/s.

[honeybearII]

This is a really great thread, and I would like to expound a bit on whether or not an N has feelings.  In the long run, IT DOESN'T MATTER IF AN N HAS FEELINGS.

Let me explain.  Most of us who were in a relationship with an N for any length of time ended up enmeshed with their view of the world - that they were the sun and everyone else existed only to either revolve around him or reflect his glory like the moon.  We were trained, over time, to believe, like I did, that "if he is happy, I am happy" or the converse mantra, "if he is unhappy, I am unhappy".  Once we accept that somehow we are responsible for their feelings, and Ns are terrific at making sure we take on that role, then we spend a good bit of our time thinking about what will either make him happy and content, or worrying about something that might tick him off. 

Over the years of my marriage, I simply flat-lined my own emotions and accepted that HE was the only one who mattered.  If I had needs, I didn't even know what they were.  If I had wants, I lost them and my wants became HIS wants.  If I was a separate and distinct person I repressed all that separateness and became who he wanted me to be.....or at least I tried.....even though I knew, deep down, that I was NEVER going to satisfy him.  I could never, by myself, be loving enough, supportive enough, pretty enough, smart enough.  He made sure, in subtle ways, that I would NEVER, not in this lifetime, be the person he could keep on the pedestal.  Over time, I simply gave up and fell into his view of me and I was miserable without even being aware of it.

Now.  Did my exNH really do all the things he did because of his own woundedness?  Perhaps.  Was he trying to protect his own False Self at the expense of me, his friends, his children?  Most likely.  Was he completely conscious of this?  Not totally.  But, in the long run, the RESULT WAS THE SAME. 

People are NOT their words.....they are their actions.  My exNH could convince himself that he was a Good Man.  He could even play that role when it suited him or met some need of HIS, but I don't believe that it ever touched the heart of him.  I don't know WHY he was so deluisional about himself and in the long run, it simply doesn't matter because he is A USER.  THAT part of the equation is indisputable.  He used me, he uses his own children, he collected wounded and vulnerable and mentally unstable women to prop himself up.  He collects people who can advance his agenda and then simply drops them. 

And that is my point.  As to our own healing, it doesn't MATTER if they are in any kind of psychic pain because most of the literature and research on narcissism tells us over and over and over again that THEY WILL NOT CHANGE.  Whether they CAN change might be open to discussion, but how many of us here saw ANY change in our Ns even when confronted with the pain of their actions or even when their own lives were falling apart around them?

Once the N has been unmasked by us, it is over.  Period.  They cannot tolerate the light of Truth shining in the dark places and so, in the long run, they will dump and discard.  It might be immediate or it might take a long time, like in the case of my exNH, but ultimately IT WILL COME.  Maybe that ending was painful to my H.  Who really knows?  He could cry publicly and SEEM broken up, but in private he was still seeing the OW, still living a lie, still lying to people about where I was, whether I had left, etc.  He certainly didn't hurt enough to finally seek help.

And that is my point.  IN THE END WHETHER THEY FEEL ANYTHING IS IRRELEVANT.  They simply don't change.
Honey

[CZBZ]

I love your description of N as a movie screen, betterdays!




He seemed so real!

He seemed so real, her Super Narcissist. When he removed his suit for her to launder by hand, starch, press and fold as ordered, she noticed out of the corner of her eye that there was nothing there. Nothing I tell you! No flesh, no hair, no pimples on his ass! Nothing! Horrified, she finished the laundry in record time, replacing his neatly folded uniform on the edge of their perfectly made bed, then steeled herself behind faux-painted, gilded castle doors. She waited. To her amazement (clamping her hand over her mouth to suppress her horror) the suit unfolded itself...slowly filling out the stretchy blue polyester with ridges in all the right places. As the neckline formed its natural curve around a fleshy but not too fleshy neck, his small head appeared---bald as an eagle and shining like a porcelain toilet. Should she run to him in relief that he had risen from god-only-knows-where? Should she run out the front door and never return? Should she buy a pot roast?

Stay tuned for episode two of The betterdays of Our Lives

Watch your local television schedule for exact time and date


ha!
CZ

[betterdays]

Too much, CZ, thanks for the laughs. Especially the " bald head shining like a porcelain toilet"--or was it the porcine head shining like the pig he is??   

[confused]

"Should she buy a pot roast?"

OMG!!!
 
HAHAHAHAHAH!!!

[Infinity]

I’ve been a member of this forum for about 3 weeks, I discovered it after putting ‘serial cheater’ into Google and came up with Narcissism!  After a 3 week binge of texting 3 other women (and the usual fights in between) I finally had enough and smashed my own house to pieces!  Not my things, HIS!  We spent a horrendous weekend but finally started talking and the usual promises of ‘never again’. The week went by and by the Thursday he was off again.  That led me to Google Narcissism.

It’s now 3 weeks since I’ve been studying N, I’ve visited every website and forum you can imagine, I’ve bought 4 e-books but finally found my way here, and this is THE only forum I’ve found answers I can understand.  In my quest to learn about N I went through stages of “no, he can’t be” to “yes he is”, I’m pretty much still at that stage though.  He is screaming N, why aren’t I getting it?  Honey, I’m at that place now, I hadn’t realised before how I’ve put myself to one side all these years (30), over the years I have used words like “you’re soulless”  “you use people”  “you hurt people” “the only person who matters in your life is YOU” .  And yet here I am today after a N incident this morning, wondering if I’m right and is N or whether I just need a label so I can justify 30 years of hell?

Can anyone relate to something like this?  He has taken tomorrow off work, no reason for it, just decided to take it off, my NH rides a bike to work and I take the car, this morning he decided he was going to drive the car as it needed oil or something and I said ok but as I looked at him, I saw the “I’m hiding something” look in his eye.  That’s my red flag, I KNEW something was going on.  I went to work and within the hour, NH phoned to say that he had been invited to a leaving (he had organised by the way) do for his Wg Cdr and there was a space and did I mind if he went.  All my gut instincts were really shouting at me now, and so I asked him why he hadn’t put his own name down before?  Apparently he didn’t want to upset me.  The previous day I had seen someone who was going to the do and asked me if I was going with NH and I said I didn’t know anything about it and asked if NH was going, I did get a strange look from him, but he said yes.  Why in God’s name did he feel the need to lie???????  He had always been going.  Normally I would have hit the roof knowing he was lying BUT now I have my suspicions he is N I calmed down immediately.  How on Earth can I tell if he’s N or not, I’ve read the forums and it really is screaming at me.  I suppose I’ve lived this chaos for so long, I’m not sure what’s real and what isn’t yet.  I expect it’s going to take me a few weeks of reading and studying N before I can finally say YES, YOU ARE A NARK!  Is this normal?

[Infinity]

Hi Liftedup, I know what you mean about the eyes, some days they look pure evil and other days just empty!  Isn't there any way you can leave him?

[Bruna]

Dear CZ (late answering to your post)(and dear ladies)
                                     wow! I can see how you refrain from posting stuff on Narcissism and Pain, it just breaks my heart that they hurt , and i can understand how it annoys you that people say they don't hurt, since you have witnessed their pain. They probably hurt but they don't know it and next thing you know is that their unconscious pain has been turned into something else: rage. It's like they can't hold their pain and face it and need to turn that hurt into something else which is damaging to others. Don't know if it makes any sense, that is what i witnessed. I saw his feelings , tried to describe  them with words, because making feelings rational helps common people yo process stuff, the result was that i just received pain. dear CZ , in eight years I can claim i didn't  really knew my exN, but many times i tried to reach him and and i got my hand slapped. The analogy of the hurt but dangerous dog is very true, the problem is he looked like a puppy , and he bit me several times and before even knowing him deeply i ran away. What i saw in those years was enough to scare me and scar me.
Love
Bruna

[~Solo]

Dear CZ (and others too!),

This IS a great thread.....

It’s been a very long time since I have posted, but I do read from time to time.  I have managed to keep myself pretty busy and now trying to figure out just how much I actually did work through the D & D by my soon to be ex husband.  I moved out of our home 1 year and 2 months ago.

I still very much have pain and suffer from the imagined loss and the loss of what I had envisioned for my future.  However, I hurt for myself, not for him. I hurt for my loss of a family.  I turned 39 in April and I really can’t see how it’s possible to meet someone and build that trust and foundation enough to consider having one now.  The positive in that is that I’m no longer disillusioned, and better yet, not allowing myself to give in to that fear of not having a child in time.

I read this post today and I very much get it.  It was agonizing to experience and confusion at it’s best.  My question is this: Does this constitute Malignancy or just the garden variety narc we most commonly refer to here but with the APPEARANCE only of malignancy? 

I also believe that if the partner cannot extricate herself from the situation quickly, the frightened narcissist will become ruthless...even aggressive enough to be classified as Malignant. This is because she is relying on normal relationship skills which increase the narcissist's resentment and/or hostility! Anybody argue with that point? When our normal reactions do not work and we don't understand pathological narcissism, our situation can be destructive and dangerous. It is unfathomable that a lifelong partner could turn on his wife/partner so quickly and ruthlessly but that is why narcissism is in the DSM for mental disorders. It is Not Normal. It is not about Us. That's hard to GET but the sooner we do, the safer we'll all be.

I could almost swear that NH created the act to make me think he was crazy.  Somehow, I like the thought better that he actually is malignant and that I did not push him to such desperate measures due to my difficult nature as he put it (which I know everyone can be difficult at times, so I don’t buy that as reason enough!).   

Sad to say, when I was reading about this disorder before I moved, I began to learn how to beat them at their games in some instances, even thought the danger level does create a game of Russian Roulette.  I noticed that when I became biting, defensive and fought back for my self, he began to back down a bit, albeit still running from our fragile young marriage because of exposure.

This is another post from early on in my days of Won; 

If you're the victim of a narcissist, you know that this "threatened" excuse is a farce, because the narcissist attacks precisely when you are anti-threatening him or her. Like when you are trying please them, when you are saying you love them, when they are already mad at you and you are trying to appease them, when you try to get them to listen to you.

WHAM – you expect the normal reaction to these friendly behaviors, but what do you get instead? The PERVERTED reaction of an attack. It's a shock tactic that takes you aback and makes you have to pinch yourself.

Is this pretty much the same as the post above?  Malignant or garden variety?  So interesting that this may have been the one aspect that most clearly made me bonkers and it really defines the disorder for me as well.   

~Solo