Am I the only guy here?

[betterdays]

Oops, sorry!

[JennyWren]

Not your fault betterdays...It was ME! 

[mokey]

Yeah but I also seem to be one of the relatively few ACONs here, as opposed to a parter or ex with an N as most here also seem to be.  My father and both my grandmothers are/were N's but the rest of my family is totally oblivious to the whole thing.

I'm not male, but I'm an ACON! And I guess maybe I'm rare in that I didn't marry an N. I think I was fortunate that while my Nmother was not self-aware, she *was* aware of the damage done by previous generations (her father, and probably his mother...so my Ngrandfather and probableNgreat-grandmother), and I heard about it a LOT and was probably more demanding of healthy interaction within relationships and more aware of the choices I was making because of it.

Although it's also possible that I didn't marry an N because I tend to be more like my Nmother and less like my enabling father. My husband is more like my enabling father. Both of us are healthier versions, though. At least I hope so!

[Legs]

what in the heck is an ACON?


Legs, who wonders all the time what people mean here when they use acronyms or whatever you call those things...I figured out that D is daughter and STBX is soon to be ex, and that's about it. Oh, MIL and FIL too, but sometimes I am completely mystified as to what relationships people are describing.

[betterdays]

Legs, there is a list of abbreviations somewhere, but ACON is Adult Child Of a Narcissist.  Big D=divorce, little d=daughter.  S=son, and if there is a number beside it, it is either birth order, like s1, s2, s3, or it is their age, like s13.  At least, I hope s13 is not birth order, oh, my, such a thought!  R/s is relationship, and I believe you are familiar with bs, sob, pos, and the abbreviations we love to use on those rat baz'z. 

Luv, Betterdays, who is lucky to have a d to explain chatspeak, or else I'd b sol n much wrs tryn 2 rite here, dude.  At least, that's how I think U say it...

[Legs]

OIC. U R so smart and kewl and that's all I know in teen speak. But seriously, some people use crazy long @$$ strings of letters, and I have absolutely NO idea who or what they are referring to. It's like pig latin only a thousand times worse. I guess they just get tired of writing MF, MF, MF a million times!!

Legs

[notakennedy]

Welcome, Zero, there is absolsutely room for a male perspective, plus I don't think it matters whether you are male or female (despite the fact that the postings here are predominantly by women), if you are or have been in relationship with an N, the effects are global for us all.  Plus, as I said before, it's actually good to have diversity.

(I think I will start a new thread about Ns and their crazy inability to write a sentence that has meaning of any kind!....Your thread is too interesting to hi-jack further!) - off on to this tangent now .... I have never read anything more convoluted written, nor listened to any conversation more likely to double back on itself until I am completely baffled, as by NH. It's like his train of thought has no sense of direction, except perhaps to serve to confuse.

[betterdays]

Zero,

This thread has me wondering, what is the male perspective?  What is the most intolerable part of your r/s?  Did you keep returning to her, and if so, what was the thing that brought you back?  Don't feel you have to answer if these are hard questions.  I do not know any men involved with female N's.

[Dandelion]

I am going to go out on a limb here (limb the right word?) and fabulize that most women through ages deal with problems by tossing and turning them verbally with each other. (Those who don't actually feel left out) Most men deal with problems by taking a beer to the toolshed and fix something or go see a race with friends. (And men who don't get really frustrated)
This is of course VERY generally spoken, but none the less - either way is quite acceptable because it works for them - even though the opposite sex does not alwasy understand and respect that *cough*

That does not mean that there aren't a few women out there who sometimes fixes things and men who talks and sometimes can do both to make things feel ok.

I normally talk but yesterday I was sooo frustrated and went outside and started cleaning the driveway. After half an hour I was exhausted and relieved and had no urge to talk about it. Just one of those things where there's no solution - just annoying feelings.

Also men are often better at living in the now. (I think we were designed like that - longer story)

Aaaaaaaaanyway - my guess is that this is why we don't see a lot of guys here. Those who do show up are a welcome addition to the group as any individual has something to share that we can learn from 

As a side story I once was very close to getting beat up by a lesbian at a festival who proclaimed "I hate men" and I said: "No, you don't. You hate the side of yourself that attracts idiots"
They had to hold her (we all had a few beers) and I had to apologize for being therapeutic 

Welcome Zero

Mette

[JennyWren]

I think, in stereotype-land, there are big differences between how men generally handle relationship issues, and how women generally handle them. But it is a generalisation. I have known male friends who would listen to me and talk about their own thoughts..and I have known females who would seek a "quick-fix-now-shut-up" approach.

My NH got hold of a copy of "Men are from Mars..." and waved it under my nose as a Get-out-of-jail free card when it began to dawn on me that he had been cruelly abusive for 20years+. He seemed to be saying..."I am a man...look...this book says I am programmed to ignore your feelings and railroad over your wishes". And he seemed to think the best remedy for this would be to ignore my feelings and railroad over my wishes by not listening to a single word I said thereafter. And that is not a Male issue...it is an N issue. Ns are neither from Mars nor Venus.....they are from some parallel dimension. And I hope it is swallowed by an enormous super-black hole someday soon.

[Infinity]

  And here I go again, if I was EVER in ANY doubt that my husband is N, today has proved without a doubt he is!  He is currently doing a Podietry course and he gives me his course work to "check over because I'm better at grammatical English than he is"  Hilarious!  It wasn't until I'd read many of the posts that I realised my father was N, my mother was completely different and so much empathy she oozed it, I then married my first NH and moved onto my second NH!  I wish I'd known about this sooner.  Something has struck me though, my father was VERY controlling, the door was locked by 10pm if I wasn't in yet (I was 21!!!!) But I learnt discipline and always did as I was told, mostly to try and please him and when I married my first NH, I was still disciplined now trying to please him and moved onto the 3rd N still trying to appease.  After this forum, my attitude towards NH has changed and he has spotted it!  I've also noticed that it IS my expression he's looking at and not the words I'm saying, he forgets almost immediately everything I say.

Welcome Zero, read and learn as much as you can so you can spot a N a mile off!  And when you do, run like hell.

[inflatedheart]

OIC. U R so smart and kewl and that's all I know in teen speak. But seriously, some people use crazy long @$$ strings of letters, and I have absolutely NO idea who or what they are referring to. It's like pig latin only a thousand times worse. I guess they just get tired of writing MF, MF, MF a million times!!

Legs

Sorry, Legs. I thought it would be an acronym that everyone is familiar with.

[inflatedheart]

I think, in stereotype-land, there are big differences between how men generally handle relationship issues, and how women generally handle them. But it is a generalisation. I have known male friends who would listen to me and talk about their own thoughts..and I have known females who would seek a "quick-fix-now-shut-up" approach.

My NH got hold of a copy of "Men are from Mars..." and waved it under my nose as a Get-out-of-jail free card when it began to dawn on me that he had been cruelly abusive for 20years+. He seemed to be saying..."I am a man...look...this book says I am programmed to ignore your feelings and railroad over your wishes". And he seemed to think the best remedy for this would be to ignore my feelings and railroad over my wishes by not listening to a single word I said thereafter. And that is not a Male issue...it is an N issue. Ns are neither from Mars nor Venus.....they are from some parallel dimension. And I hope it is swallowed by an enormous super-black hole someday soon.

That book is a load of BS. I believe that it is not an inherent behavior ("I am a man, therefore, accept my behavior"), but rather many men are socialized to engage in these behaviors. It is not "manly" (read: expected or traditional) for men to have feelings or have affection or to treat women as equals. That is not to say that an unhealthy family system can't socialize children, regardless of their gender (however somewhat moderated by it), to have dysfunctional communication and interactions.

[JennyWren]

Very well put inflatedheart.

I used to teach little kids (5&6years olds)....and I was horrified by, for example, the way in which so many parents were uncomfortable with their son crying if they scraped their knee. The message was loud and clear..."Boy feelings are unacceptable". Girls were allowed to howl the ceiling off if they had so much as a hangnail. But the little lads were expected to pick up their severed arm and skip off to the ambulance with a smile on their faces. So OK...I am taking it a little far, but you know what I mean.

However much I enforced a strict level playing field in my classroom...the beliefs were already there at 5&6 years of age. And again...I generalise. There were some wonderful parents who were not engaging in stereotypes at all, but encouraging the best potential from the individual child, be they male or female. But they were a significant minority. That was 15years ago.

[inflatedheart]

Very well put inflatedheart.

I used to teach little kids (5&6years olds)....and I was horrified by, for example, the way in which so many parents were uncomfortable with their son crying if they scraped their knee. The message was loud and clear..."Boy feelings are unacceptable". Girls were allowed to howl the ceiling off if they had so much as a hangnail. But the little lads were expected to pick up their severed arm and skip off to the ambulance with a smile on their faces. So OK...I am taking it a little far, but you know what I mean.

However much I enforced a strict level playing field in my classroom...the beliefs were already there at 5&6 years of age. And again...I generalise. There were some wonderful parents who were not engaging in stereotypes at all, but encouraging the best potential from the individual child, be they male or female. But they were a significant minority. That was 15years ago.

Not to make this a gender discussion, but I would argue that there is more of a backlash now than ever. It is so sad to see how we define gender and gendered behaviors so rigidly. It totally reduces individuals' expressive and interactive abilities.  It's not just about the issue of stereotypes either (i.e.: men can't wear pink, women can't drive, men are driven by their sexual urges blah blah blah) but the ideal concepts of binary gender (that you are either/or), which manifest much more subtly as well. These arbitrary rules are often unspoken and modeled by behavior; how labor is divided in the home, the body language we use, the tenor of our voices and so forth all send subtle gender messages, rules and expectations. Unfortunately, children take in many thousands of gendered messages everyday at home, via the media, school and other institutions.
I have some good book recommendations if  anyone is interested in the development of masculinity, gender binary and gender studies. I highly recommend Michael Kimmel's "Guyland" and "Gendered Society" or CJ Pasco's "Dude, you're a f*g" because they are so insightful. They really touch upon where these gender rules came from and how it intersects with and manifests in various institutions and human experiences (including mental health and development).

[SparklePony]

Hi Zero!

Well I've just read your intro thread, which you linked to.

I can completely relate to you - I'm also 28, N Father, mother STILL in denial - I'm just not a guy 

I often wondered what would have happened had I been born a male. To be honest - I just can't even wrap my brain around it. Although my Dad has been horrible, sexist, disgusting, etc, my whole life - I think it would have been a MILLION times worse had I been male.

If my Dad had a son, he would have either made a monster just like himself - or he would have made his son's life absolutely miserable. With his views on masculinity, and what a man "should be" - ugh, I just can't imagine.

Well anyway - I'm glad you're here, its good to have a male perspective! Especially being around the same age. I've never had an N partner or anything like that - so I'm in the same boat as you - the crazy is all in the family! 

[SusyP14]

Not to make this a gender discussion, but I would argue that there is more of a backlash now than ever. It is so sad to see how we define gender and gendered behaviors so rigidly. many thousands of gendered messages everyday at home, via the media, school and other institutions.
I have some good book recommendations if  anyone is interested in the development of masculinity, gender binary and gender studies. I highly recommend Michael Kimmel's "Guyland" and "Gendered Society" or CJ Pasco's "Dude, you're a f*g" because they are so insightful.

I think men and women do experience life differently.  I once read an article (years ago so I cannot reference it) but the author was saying:

My wife wants me to open up about my feelings.  When she was a child, her and her girlfriends would walk home from school holding hands and then go and play barbies.

When I was walking home from school, my friends and I would take turns using our full bookbags to punch each other in stomach.  You were not 'allowed' to cry or even say that it hurt.  In this society, we pretty much teach men to shut down their feelings.

I thought it was a valid point.

Thanks for the book recommends.  I will add them to the list.  Eyes Up recommended a book called:  If Men Could talk, which I purchased but have not read yet:

http://www.amazon.com/If-Men-Could-Talk-Unlocking/dp/0316178683

[too_many]

If we're talking about gender roles, I have to post a link to the lyrics of "When I Was a Boy" - my all-time favorite Dar Williams song :

             http://www.cduniverse.com/dar-williams-when-i-was-a-boy-lyrics-3092731.htm

I will always remember a man on my old local NPR station describing how, when he first heard this song, he literally had to pull over to the side of the road to take it in and put himself back together.

[inflatedheart]

I think men and women do experience life differently.  I once read an article (years ago so I cannot reference it) but the author was saying:

My wife wants me to open up about my feelings.  When she was a child, her and her girlfriends would walk home from school holding hands and then go and play barbies.

When I was walking home from school, my friends and I would take turns using our full bookbags to punch each other in stomach.  You were not 'allowed' to cry or even say that it hurt.  In this society, we pretty much teach men to shut down their feelings.

I thought it was a valid point.

Thanks for the book recommends.  I will add them to the list.  Eyes Up recommended a book called:  If Men Could talk, which I purchased but have not read yet:

http://www.amazon.com/If-Men-Could-Talk-Unlocking/dp/0316178683

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I didn't say that men and women experience life the same way or communicate in the same way, just that it is filtered through socially defined notions of gender expression. I believe that the "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" philosophy doesn't examine the social underpinnings, that is, to understand WHY and specifically HOW we can change this dynamic so both parties can live more fully. Yes, it may be true that men do not communicate in the same ways than women, but the question of why is not answered, rather, it espouses gender essentialism (which is something that is entirely untrue and has many severe social consequences), stating that these are the "true natures" of men and women. Not only does this binary assume that all women are like X and all men are like Y, but leaves out a significant number of people who do not gender conform, are intersexed or are transgender. How do you explain the so called "inherent differences between men and women" if there are people who live in between or blur gender lines? How can the gender binary be an explanatory factor in communication difficulties if gender is a social experience and not inherent? These are things that "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" doesn't explain because gender essentialism is an easy, simple and convenient way to dismiss real problems and sell millions of books.
If you'd like an excellent rebuttal and a more thorough discussion of gender and communication, I recommend,"The Myth of Mars and Venus: Do men and women really speak different languages?" By Dr. Deborah Cameron.

[Imogene]

Um, does anyone else wonder if all this talk about gender difference may have scared off our honorary male member?

[zero]

No I'm still here; I've just been busy with some other stuff lately and in the middle of a really huge development as far as the NFOO is concerned.  I was going to mention that later on today or tomorrow but I decided to browse a few threads quickly first and decided Imogene's comment was worth a quick reply for now.

LOTS more to come... 

[Imogene]

Well, I guess we're going to have to try harder to drive you off. . . .  Naw, just kidding. 

I hope your NC plans went through without major trauma.  When I went NC with my parents for a while, they totally complied.  Like, to an eerie degree.  My brother, on the other hand--I kept thinking he would hop a plane and come here.  I was kind of scared of him for a while, he was so pissed off and insistent.  And of course, he was in complete denial the whole time about any possible reason I might have for not wanting to deal with his insanity anymore.