stop me from going down the "what if" and "if only" trail

[alatariel]

grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.  The ex frieNd that I'm trying to get over just sent me an innocent and normal-seeming email.  I deleted it, and didn't reply, but I can't believe I was curious enough to even read it.  I blocked her phone number from calling my house a couple of weeks ago b/c she wouldn't stop calling and I didn't think it was fair to my kids to have to tell them not to answer the phone.  This is the first I've heard from her since then.

When I told her I didn't want to be "friends" any more, I had originally thought we could have a casual "acquaintanceship", that it wouldn't be a problem to make small-talk if we happened to be at the same social event, or that we could even meet at a neutral place to do something, like hiking with the kids.  Shortly after that, she sent me a nasty email about an imagined slight, and I realized that there is no way she would ever treat me decently. Her email was so full of projection it was what led me to looking into NPD and to understand that she is most likely the poster child for the disorder.

I'm sure I made the right decision to go to complete NC instead of trying even a casual acquaintanceship with her.  So, why am I going down the "if only" and "what if" path?  Why do I find out about her being a regular, nice, decent person to mutual acquaintances, and wonder if she could ever be that way to me?

I start to wonder if I'm being melodramatic, if I made the whole thing up, if I AM, in fact, too sensitive, if I somehow caused her to treat me like complete sh!t...  And then I go back and read things I wrote during our "friendship" about how badly she treated me...  And I read here about how other N's have treated ppl and understand that the things she did and said were very typical of N's...

will I ever get off this fence?

[CZBZ]

Will you ever get off the fence? Sure! But maybe not for awhile. This is the part that's really hard---the storm before the calm.

I posted a big, long message with links on emotional abuse and a few videos. This might help. If you can concentrate on learning 'what' abuse is and how friends can use, manipulate, and emotionally destroy someone's confidence overtime, this will help you stay strong during times of self-doubt.

Let me tell you how many people get those 'innocent and normal-seeming' emails. The cycle begins: they doubt their own perceptions. "Was I too judgmental? Am I being fair?" and then the self-derogation phase kicks in: "Who do I think I am? After all, I wasn't always the nicest person either!" and then the False Forgiveness phase begins, "This time, we can make things work because "I" finally realize where "I" went wrong" and you make the phone call.

You talk a little while.

You reminisce.

You begin to believe you were foolish to end a relationship with her/him because gosh, look how willing they are to forgive and forget!

The next phase begins when you soften your boundaries, share your feelings, grant her/him the benefit of the doubt and trust that this time, the relationship will be mutual and loving.

And then, Whammo! Blam! Shazam! Your new old best friend lands a slam-dunk right through the hole in your heart.

You can rinse and repeat this cycle as many times as you dare but the results are always the same.

It all starts with an innocent and normal seeming email.

SO, Today, just for you:

Get out a notebook. Write "My abuse notebook" on the cover. Open to page one and write down the very first time you were 'shocked' by your friend's behavior. If she yells at you, write that down, too. Any behavior she has done that's listed on the Emotional Abuse Message, start a new entry. Keep this notebook handy in times of emergency. I kept mine across my solar plexus when the X talked with me. 

It is very difficult for us to remember the 'bad' times when there's the PROMISE of something we want: a dear friend. A confident. A buddy. But remember this alateriel: as long as you are spending all your spare time trying to please the unreasonable friend, you have NO TIME left to find real friends. The kind that don't make you doubt yourself, take advantage of your kindness, or take your generosity for granted.

Hugs,
CZ

[alatariel]

Thank you.  And, I did read your long thread on emotional abuse, and as a matter of fact, copied and pasted the applicable parts from that to the log I'm writing up on the computer of all the nasty things to do with my former frieNd.

I have already been through exactly that cycle.  I've been through it somewhere between 4 and 7 times, in the three years we were "friends".   So she knows how to appeal to me...  She knows how to seem nice and normal, and even to promise that things will be different, how she "realizes" or "understands" that she may have done something I didn't like or may have pushed too hard, or criticized too much... and she's having such a hard time with work/life/kids/ex husband/midlife crisis that she didn't MEAN to hurt me...

but it was all for my own good, b/c she only has my best interests at heart...

and that's where she always begins to tell me what is wrong with me, and how I caused the rift, and how my issues control my life, and how she doesn't have these problems with her other friends and she doesn't understand why there is such an imbalance between us...



UGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

   NO.  No more.  Never again.  I'm taking back my life.   I may have a broken heart, but it's MY broken heart.  MINE.  To heal, on my own terms, in my own time, in my own way.

[CZBZ]

"and that's where she always begins to tell me what is wrong with me, and how I caused the rift, and how my issues control my life, and how she doesn't have these problems with her other friends and she doesn't understand why there is such an imbalance between us..."

The thing is: there is an Imbalance between the two of you AND this will sound radical BUT: you do not have to understand why there's an imbalance. Just look at your history and say to yourself, "Wow, we really don't get along and I do not understand why." Then look at the reality of your history and tell yourself that it won't work. Obviously. Because it hasn't. And nobody knows why. It just doesn't work. 

"but it was all for my own good"

Put on your Nikes and run when somebody tells you that! It's a sure-fire sign of abuse because the abuser is justifying their behavior as being good for YOU. Don't fall for it. (and p.s. to the wise: Maybe you will gain insight and learn lessons from an abusive relationship but keep it to yourself. Do Not Tell the Abuser.)


Hugs,
CZ

[alatariel]

*snicker* I just thought about how you described exactly the cycle we've been through, w/o knowing any more about the situation than the little I've shared here.  THAT'S how typical her behavior is, how common these ppl are.  Which made me giggle, thinking how she would HATE being typical and common, since she believes, quite firmly, in her own superiority and uniqueness. 

[CZBZ]

LOL, alateriel!! She probably believes she's unique and special and we believe we're alone---that what we're going through could never be understood by other people because we are just that 'odd'.

What a strange feeling it was the first time I read about the Cycle of Abuse! You feel relieved but at the same time, you're shocked to find out it's abusive....cuz we can come up with amazingly creative ways to excuse their behavior! (and our own!)

We're just people having an abusive experience. 


Hugs,
CZ

[alatariel]

Is it wrong to wonder if she misses me at all?  Or am I right to assume that what she misses is a ready supply, a minion, and not me-as-me?  Did she ever see me-as-me?

Why did I refuse to believe the old saying "actions speak louder than words" and believe her words, when they pretty much always contradicted her actions?

[CZBZ]

I dunno Alateriel. If we cut off friendships the first time we stumbled, we'd probably never have any friends. Good relationships seem to me to be a process of 'mutual forgiveness'. Learning together how to treat each other with dignity and kindness. Giving and receiving equally. An unhealthy relationship is never mutual and it may take awhile before you realize the relationship is one-sided. You just can't know that right away.

I try not to think about whether someone misses me or not if the relationship ends because there's no way to ever know the answer to that! And besides, it gets me in trouble if I really don't want to resume the relationship. I'll project my feelings onto the other person and assume he or she misses me for the same reasons that I miss him or her and then I'm back to square one again.

You just let those thoughts go around your head a couple of times, always coming back to your original decision to end the relationship because your original reasons are STILL valid.


Hugs,
CZ

[alatariel]

You're right.  And I'm fortunate to have some real friends, and I can see the difference now that I know what to look for.  With my other friends, it's a mutual process of working to maintain the friendship and appreciating and bringing out the best in each other.  My ex frieNd was always belittling me to make herself feel bigger.

 That's one characteristic she shared with my ex husbaNd, both of them had to constantly make me feel like less of whatever, and they especially liked to point out ways in which I failed to live up to my own ideals.

[alatariel]

In the daylight, the fact that the ex frieNd sent me a nice, chatty, innocent-seeming email makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Think about it: you have a fight with someone.  You send her a nasty email, blaming her for everything that went wrong in your relationship, accusing her of taking it out on the kids, and telling her you can walk away from the friendship without a care and never look back.

So she stops answering your emails, phone calls and texts, and goes so far as to have your phone number blocked so you can't call her house any more.

Obviously, she doesn't want to hear from you.  So, why would you send her a nice, chatty email a month later, as though nothing was ever wrong?  WTF???

[betterdays]

This thread needs to be a sticky, or part of an already existing sticky.  It may be triggering for some, but for me it is soothing and reassuring, especially the first two posts.  Keep going, ladies, this dance is one I know by heart.

[CZBZ]

"So, why would you send her a nice, chatty email a month later, as though nothing was ever wrong?"

Well, here's something to think about: Narcissism has been described as "an escape from reality." This means that she can 'deny' the serious problems in your relationship (especially your complaints)  and expect to pick up where you left off as if nothing lousy had ever happened. She won't be interested in uncovering the real problems leading to a fractured friendship. She'll email as if nothing ever happened, hoping you won't bring up the past and disturb her preferred version of reality.

We make erroneous assumptions when someone emails kindly, as if it is an invitation to forget the past and move forward. We assume the email is an apology of sorts, saving face for both people without making a mountain out of a molehill. We appreciate their generosity and desire to re-forge the relationship, possibly becoming even more intimate as a result of the 'repair'. This is what goes on in OUR heads you see because we value the friendship and empathize with the person sending the first email after a rift.

Each time people argue with one another and 'make-up', they are investing emotional energy INTO the relationship which makes it stronger and more trustworthy because you believe that no matter what, you'll resolve inevitable problems.

You see her email as a potential commitment to your friendship (a peace offering) and because you like or even love this person, you are relieved to avoid the void of ending your connection to him/her. This is not a complete fabrication of impossible expectations on your part. Why not? Because the majority of people ARE this way. The Majority of people value relationships, connections, community. The majority of people  get their feelings hurt from time-to-time OR hurt other people's feelings without even trying. So we are, as i mentioned above, serial forgivers extending our compassion to others as they do to us.

Narcissists will not confront the issues nor take responsibility for their divisive, insulting or abusive behavior. They will drift into fantasy about the relationship they WANT without facing existing problems requiring (among many other things): vulnerability; empathy; compassion; mutual responsibility; trust; trust; trust; acceptance of one another's limitations; the extension of good will to the other person and unwavering belief in the other person's good will towards them. Rather than go to all the work this requires to build a solid friendship with someone, narcissists prefer to 'escape' the messiness and start over with a simple forgive-and-forget' email.

Fine idea. I love it.

The problem is: underlying tensions have not been addressed. Old grievances rest like coiled serpents in the belly of the narcissist---just waiting to spring into action at the slightest insult or perceived criticism. When the next disagreement arises, past issues will cloud the present. You, as have the majority of people, have worked through past grievances.  Your frieNd however, rolls out her list of unresolved problems beginning the first day you met. You are at a disadvantage at this point because like most people, you really DID forget and forgive.

It would be a lovely and perfect world if we could pretend bad things hadn't happened. If we could move forward without addressing our complicity or our duplicity. ha! It would be a lovely and perfect world if people could get over the past without addressing the issues creating problems. It would be a lovely and perfect world if all it took was one email to rebuild a broken relationship and nobody had to say "I'm sorry" or change offending behavior.

I think each of us would like to start over without addressing our pain. It is the path of least resistance. We might try it. We might respond to the email with the best of intentions but eventually, the same dynamic causing problems in the first place will reappear. The narcissist is basically saying, "Let's Play Pretend Friends and if I decide you aren't being nice enough to me, I'll 'unfriend' you. But I'll keep checking now and then to see if you've learned your lesson!"

Oftentimes you can see through the confusion by asking yourself this, "What would I do (or have done) in her shoes?"

Would you feel so entitled to someone's friendship as to email them as if nothing 'bad' had ever happened? Would you feel so special that they should want a friendship with you no matter what had happened? Would you be aware of how invalidating it is to act as if a friend's concerns have no validity or cause for concern? I think most 'normal' people WANT to talk about their concerns out of respect for and love for their friend. If you care about someone, you want them to tell you if they're offended because the relationship is more valuable to you than your ego!

Consider narcissistic relationships such as abusive marriages, for example. The first thing narcissists do after a 'rift' is send roses, hoping to let bygones be bygones and avoid accountability. Same thing with all narcissistic relationships. Roses, emails, tickets to a concert-----the Trojan Horse might differ in style but every story ends the same.

Hugs,
CZ

[alatariel]

Thank you.     That made perfect sense.  That's what I always thought, and that's what other ppl told me any other time I walked away and she sent me a similar email-

 "the email is an apology of sorts, saving face for both people without making a mountain out of a molehill. We appreciate their generosity and desire to re-forge the relationship, possibly becoming even more intimate as a result of the 'repair'."

This has happened several times.  But this is the first time I've looked at that behavior and wondered, not what's wrong with me, but WTF is wrong with her!  This time I'm able to say, "that woman has more tissues than a Kleenex factory!"

I don't know if I mentioned this, but shortly after I started reading about NPD, she sent me a text that said, "So, do you miss me yet?"  This was about 2 weeks after I'd stopped responding to her calls etc.  You know what actually went through my head?  "What a narcissist!  Who does she think she is, to ASSume I've missed her?" 

[Snowbird]

"but it was all for my own good"

Put on your Nikes and run when somebody tells you that! It's a sure-fire sign of abuse because the abuser is justifying their behavior as being good for YOU. Don't fall for it.

This brings to mind a quote from my favorite author:

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive.
It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies.
The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated;
but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."

-C.S. Lewis

[alatariel]

Narcissists will not confront the issues nor take responsibility for their divisive, insulting or abusive behavior. They will drift into fantasy about the relationship they WANT

Huh.  B/c from her words, and her actions, this is not a relationship/friendship she does "want". If she "wanted" me in her life, why would she treat me like crap?  Why would she go out of her way to demonstrate how little I mean, how unimportant I am in the grand scheme of her life?  Why bother trying to bring me back into her life when she got what she wanted?  She wanted me to be invisible, and *poof* now I am, and she can go on her merry way.

[too_many]

Hi alatariel, I've been meaning to write you because it was also the dissolution of an N-friendship that sent me reading everything I could find about personality disorders, frenemies, workplace bullies, covert aggression, emotional abuse, and then narcissism.  Breaking off that friendship nearly undid me, but I feel so far and happily removed from it now, I wasn't sure what I could tell you.  But then I was transferring files from my old computer today and I found a small venting journal I was keeping when I still had to work with this person, so I'll share this paragraph, because it makes me laugh now:

Journal entry from about 16 mos. ago:

Contents of thank you note left on my keyboard after I left work yesterday:

Dear (too_many) –
   Thanks for the board books and the pacimal, which I love of course. And thanks for supporting me throughout all of this, no matter what. I’m glad you were able to come to the shower.
   Thanks for everything,
   (Worst frenemy ever)

Thanks for being at the shower! It was good to see you. Thanks for all your support and fun! Much appreciated!
   Good to see you!
   (Frenemy's husband)

Which made me really sad all day, and cry when I got home, at how there is never going to be any acknowledgement she treated me badly, which I’ve known, and keep repeating to myself, but still, to have it thrown in my face yet again. I mean, ‘no matter what’? That is so vague, it’s impossible to tell whether she thinks she’s tacitly admitting, ‘no matter how big a bipch I was or what I put you through or how much I took without return,’ or ‘no matter that I grew to hate you, and can’t wait until I never have to see you again.’  Which is just like her.  It so could be either meaning, it’s impossible to take the first one to be charitable, because it could just as easily be the other, and the first meaning still isn’t anywhere near a true apology anyway!

And also to think I ever cared what the two people writing above ever thought anyway – I mean, look at their writing skills! I just did a grammar check and they got a Flesh-Kincaid grade level of 1.6!!!  But I was trying to accept people for who they are, and not expect them to be everything on some checklist of my ideal friend.

I have felt a little sad from time to time since, especially whenever I have to deal with her again, as she does still work remotely part-time and sometimes come to office functions, but that was definitely the last time I ever cried.  And I think now I just feel sad that she is such a limited person, and will probably never change, and so is missing out on so much, and it's sure to impact the child she now is parenting.

And I actually feel kind of grateful too, because I think I may really have all the warning signs down pat now, and I still have half a lifetime to successfully employ my new sussing skills.  

too_many

[too_many]

It's also funny to me to think how long I was rehearsing what a proper apology coming from her would sound like, and how I would respond - how I would accept a real one, without reopening any doors, and wish her well - I was kind of doubtful she would ever find the words but I hadn't found this board yet, and so it's funny to me now that I even thought I should be prepared! 

[CZBZ]

"If she "wanted" me in her life, why would she treat me like crap?"

Whenever it snows outside and my shoes are muddy, I sure love having a door mat.  Narcissists love having a scapegoat. In fact, they NEED to have someone in their life that they can project all their problems, issues and nasty behaviors onto. They need scapegoats like people in the Rocky Mountains need doormats.


Hugs,
CZ

[JennyWren]

those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."[/i]

-C.S. Lewis

Oh that`s a real corker. That must be in the N instruction booklet that they are all programmed with at birth, just after the giant arrogance chip is inserted in their frontal lobe.

alatariel - As for the horrible drawn out hurt of your friendship with the N .....your anguish and raw feelings come across so loud and clear. I`m so sorry you have this N infesting your life.

I find when an N does the sudden "friendly" act....I interpret their actions by my own motivations. That is, I assume the message is one of reconciliation....an olive branch to fix things. But with an N it is just an invitation to be dragged back into their world so they can abuse you all over again.

They will never want to go to the next level of reconciliation and dig down to fix what went wrong. My NHs brother (NGolden Boy) used to complain bitterly when asked to face the things he`d done to upset people. He would state his preferred route.....to "Draw a line in the sand and forget what has gone before". He refused to look at himself as anything other than perfect...and then would complain that he was being forced to "go through hoops" to have a relationship. Then he would start quoting biblical references about forgiveness.

They are all alike. And they don`t have emotions non-Ns can relate to. Their brains are functioning completely differently. So when we interpret their actions in our non-N brains...it is hard to understand their true motives. But their true motives are to look after themselves, secure supply, and never ever learn from silly non-Ns observations. And probably a whole bunch of other weird stuff too hideous to ever contemplate.

I hope you feel some peace about the N"friend" soon. They have the most horrible way of getting under your skin and bothering you in the most hurtful ways. 

[alatariel]

Anguish and raw feelings? Yeah, that.  Along with a heaping helping of self-loathing.  I created this mess, and allowed it to continue.  Way back when we had the first fight, I realized what she was all about, but I continued to let her use and abuse me due to my own narcissism. I believed I was "special" enough to be her one true friend, that I could put up with her crap b/c I could see the "true self" that she hid from the rest of the world.  I thought we had some sort of "mystical connection" thing going on, that could transcend the abuse.  Or that she really "didn't know better", that it was just how her FOO had treated her and her siblings and she couldn't do better unless she knew better.  I didn't want to give up on someone who "needed me", didn't want to believe that I had totally wasted so much of my time and myself that I had invested in this travesty.   


It's easier to forgive myself for putting up with my ex husbaNd for so long b/c I didn't know anything about abuse at the time, and once we had kids together it exponentially complicated things.  But why didn't I learn anything from that experience and recognize abuse the minute it walked in the door, and tell it to leave right away?

The only thing I can say in my own defense, is that I really didn't know anything about narcissism as a personality disorder.  I believe my XNH to be a covert N, and my XfrieNd to be an overt N.  I thought they were totally different ppl, and was really puzzled as to why they seemed to treat me the same nasty way.

[honeybearII]

Well, here's something to think about: Narcissism has been described as "an escape from reality." This means that she can 'deny' the serious problems in your relationship (especially your complaints)  and expect to pick up where you left off as if nothing lousy had ever happened. She won't be interested in uncovering the real problems leading to a fractured friendship. She'll email as if nothing ever happened, hoping you won't bring up the past and disturb her preferred version of reality.

I think that for many of us, this aspect of narcissism is the most baffling and the hardest to get our heads around.  It is why many of us stayed in the relationship for so long, and why we had such a hard time really seeing the Ns behavior toward us as emotionally abusive.  An N can do the most grievous things to us - have affairs, lie, manipulate, treat us like dirt - and then turn right around and not only act as though none of it happened, but actually believe that WE don't remember any of the angst, either.

My breakup with my exNH was extremely hard.  I finally left him, moved hundreds of miles away, and we seldom spoke for the 2 years it took for the divorce to be finalized.  We had started a business together before I left, and I told him that I didn't want any part of it and actually signed papers which legally got me out of any responsibility for any of it.  He called me the day he got the papers to let me know he had received them and then had the unmitigated GALL to ask me if I would make sure some brochures and fliers were taken around to some prospects in the city where I was living!    

He acted as though nothing had happened between us to precipitate my signing my rights away on the business and as though I would be happy as a clam to do his work for him.  I'm telling you, these people are NUTZ.  He was actually hurt and befuddled when I told him OF COURSE I wouldn't do a darn thing to help him.  He just couldn't get it through his skull that the marriage was over and that the years of my being loving, supportive, and willing to do anything to see him succeed were over, done with, and I was past it all.

Honey

[JennyWren]

He acted as though nothing had happened between us to precipitate my signing my rights away on the business and as though I would be happy as a clam to do his work for him.  I'm telling you, these people are NUTZ.  He was actually hurt and befuddled when I told him OF COURSE I wouldn't do a darn thing to help him.  He just couldn't get it through his skull that the marriage was over and that the years of my being loving, supportive, and willing to do anything to see him succeed were over, done with, and I was past it all.

Honey

It`s a real head-scratcher when they do that isn`t it? What the hell are they thinking?????

NH is so confused as to why I don`t have him round for Sunday dinner every week. He can`t for the life of him see why this would be anything other than lovely for me. Plus I am supposed to be best pals with the gf. Since she is so charming we would get on famously!!!!!!!!

We have bearly spoken since Christmas...and he is pretty clear about it....he has offered the hand of friendship...and I have rejected him because I am so horrible. Well...it`s the only explanation that fits with the whole Mr Nice Guy thing. So that`s that sorted then!

[alatariel]

You're all so right about the "baffling" part.  The N's behavior is just utterly baffling.  They leave your head spinning, trying to figure out WTF is going on, b/c nobody could really behave/believe/act like that, right? 

I was thinking about this when I realized one of the reasons I didn't believe my xfrieNd could possibly have NPD- I didn't believe anybody could really and truly be that firmly convinced of their own superiority. I honestly believed she was being ironic.  I have a highly developed sense of the absurd and the ironic, and I thought she did, too.  Nope, her statements about her own perfection were meant to be taken seriously. 

[honeybearII]

Plus I am supposed to be best pals with the gf. Since she is so charming we would get on famously!!!!!!!!

JennyWren, I have to tell you that after my exN remarried, my grown daughter (who by this time knew the whole sordid history of my marriage to her father) said to me, "Mom, you would really like her, actually".

My reply?  "I'm sure I would.  I liked all your father's girlfriends over the 30 years I was married to him".

We both laughed.
Honey

[Vega_Rising]

Anguish and raw feelings? Yeah, that.  Along with a heaping helping of self-loathing.  I created this mess, and allowed it to continue.  Way back when we had the first fight, I realized what she was all about, but I continued to let her use and abuse me due to my own narcissism. I believed I was "special" enough to be her one true friend, that I could put up with her crap b/c I could see the "true self" that she hid from the rest of the world.  I thought we had some sort of "mystical connection" thing going on, that could transcend the abuse.  Or that she really "didn't know better", that it was just how her FOO had treated her and her siblings and she couldn't do better unless she knew better.  I didn't want to give up on someone who "needed me", didn't want to believe that I had totally wasted so much of my time and myself that I had invested in this travesty.

Hey Alaterial,

This is my first post on here.  I wanted to let you know just how much I can relate to what you are experiencing and say thanks for sharing it with us.
Boy, I really thought I was special too, that she chose ME and I was so honored to be w/ her.  See, in my mind my Xgf just needed love and unconditional positive regard to bring her out of her "shell" sort of speak, I convinced myself that I could help her to realize she could trust people and in turn she would open up and be her real self.  I was so empathetic to her FOO issues, her past abuse, etc..  I told myself I was strong enough to handle whatever she could dish out....
So, my point is simple, I have been there.
The more I read, the more the fog clears and I actually start thinking for myself again, your post helps me know that I am not alone in this journey. 
Thank you.


Peace,
Vega_Rising