having a hard day, actually missing things about the N

[alatariel]

Ugh.  The first day of school is always a bittersweet time for a mom-  missing the kids and the easy, carefree days of summer, but glad to get back to the routine and see the kids happy to be with their friends.

It was worse this year.  For the last 3 years, my XfrieNd has been there, too.  We'd go school shopping together, her older kids would hand down advice, outgrown clothes, or supplies to my kids, and as soon as they all got on the bus, we'd call each other, ready to talk about the ups and downs of sending the kids off for another year.  We'd get together after school, with all the kids, to listen to their chatter and share observations about it all.

Back-to-school is one of the lonely moments of being a single parent.  I did it on my own for 3 years before I met her, and that's one reason I was so happy to have a "friend" who is also a single mom.  I thought we could be "in this together", sharing life's ups and downs, supporting each other, being "backup" for each other.

*sigh*   

[daisyk9292]

Hi alatariel,

So sorry to hear about your day. {{{hugs}}} I think being a mom can be one of the loneliest experiences for some. Whether single or stay at home mom. When I became a stay at home mom it was a very, very lonely time for me. I had no friends at all. I went to mommy and me groups, play dates, etc. But was never able to connect in a real way to anyone. I was very blue.  I had no idea how I got there. I had all kinds of friends when I was younger. But life goes on, people grow apart, etc.

Making true friends in this world is a very tough thing for many. Especially as an adult. I don't mean acquaintances, I mean a true friend. The kind you can really trust, talk with and be there for you, where you take turns being the strong one for each other leaning on each other, laughing together, doing silly things.

You thought you found one, you had something that meant a lot to you and now you've lost it. Of course that's going to cause you to grieve. It's going to take as long as it takes.

I reconnected with my first childhood friend a few years back.  We've been inseparable ever since. We know almost all there is to know about each other. We hadn't spoken in over 10 yrs but we picked up as if no time has flown by. She's been one of my biggest supporters during this horrible time in my life. I know how lucky I am to have her.

Take the time to grieve your loss, but when you're ready, maybe you can get yourself out there and reach out to others. Find a new friend, a TRUE friend.  I NEVER thought I'd find real friendships again. Even one friend. But I did.  It is possible.

 I think that's one reason I fell for the N that got to me. My loneliness and isolation. I was starving for connection. He gave me that feeling then BAM pulled the plug. It was the most painful sense of loss I've ever experienced.

I hope it gets better for you soon. 

[CZBZ]

(((Alateriel)))


That would be a huge loss, alateriel. You must have truly loved your friend... 


Hugs,
CZ

[MoreMyself]

I reconnected with my first childhood friend a few years back.  We've been inseparable ever since. We know almost all there is to know about each other. We hadn't spoken in over 10 yrs but we picked up as if no time has flown by. She's been one of my biggest supporters during this horrible time in my life. I know how lucky I am to have her.

I did the same, recently reconnected with someone I went to high school, university, then lived with for a couple of years.  After I married the Hobbit, she became more remote, now says it was because she couldn't stand him...  Anyway I just had a lovely holiday with her and a friend of hers who I really hit it off with. 

I remember those lonely years of raising kids.  Looking back, I also remember wanting so desperately to have friends that I became the pleaser, the one who would do all the work organising the cake stand, or sewing costumes or picking up other people's kids...  Loneliness will do that to you.  They weren't friends, though, none of them remained after the kids were out of high school.  I look at it now as a temporary phase in life where you are thrown together with people with whom you think you have a lot in common - and you do, being children and school - but when that ends, there is often nothing there to replace it. 

Sorry to hear about losing the Nfriend, but really, a narcissistic friend is an oxymoron, isn't it? A person can't be both a true friend and a narcissist (because they always put themselves first).

[JennyWren]

The trouble with Ns is they do have to have a magnetic...or charismatic.....or good-to-be-around side, or the whole thing wouldn`t work. If they were just N overtly all the time nobody would speak to them. 

So it is not surprising that you miss the friend you thought you had. The N act. But you can`t have the one without the other.....and once you see an N for what they truly are...there is no going back. And you have to grieve for a friendship...or marriage...or parent...or whatever the N represents, just as though they had died. And a close friend is a very significant thing to lose.

In many ways, it is more difficult to deal with than death, because of all the betrayal and lies and dishonesty. But make no mistake..it is a huge loss for you alatariel...so be kind to yourself..and just let the feelings come and go as they need to. 

[Vega_Rising]

The trouble with Ns is they do have to have a magnetic...or charismatic.....or good-to-be-around side, or the whole thing wouldn`t work. If they were just N overtly all the time nobody would speak to them. 

So it is not surprising that you miss the friend you thought you had. The N act. But you can`t have the one without the other.....and once you see an N for what they truly are...there is no going back.

Hi Alaterial,

I'm sorry you are having a rough time, hopefully chatting on the forum has been helpful during this time. This quote by JennyWren is spot on, I have my life before Nxgf, during, and now after.  Once I "knew" instinctively that she had N traits there was no going back to the innocent, trusting person I was before.  So, I have to grieve the loss of part of myself as well.

So what makes me think (us think) that things could ever be different? Back to the "nice" N persona that JW mentioned, they know what face to put on in order to hook us. I for one wanted to believe that she would come around, see the light, grow..blah blah blah.  She was NOT interested. Period.  It was her way or no way. 

Sure, there are fond memories that I have, although nowadays it is becoming increasingly more difficult to find that fondness in them. It's as if the shine is wearing off sort of speak, and I am beginning to accept the reality my gut was telling me for so long. I'm hearing that it takes time to grieve the loss of what we thought was real, the relationship, the person, the love we craved, and parts of ourselves. Time and being on WON has helped me already

Hang in there, I feel lonely at times too. To be honest, I think that my loneliness is also what allowed me to put blinders on, thanks for pointing that out. I'm making some changes to hopefully prevent myself from being desperate again.
One activity that helps me deal with these feelings is to volunteer my time to others, I've made some really great friends who share a common cause. Take good care of yourself. 

Peace,
VR

[alatariel]

Thanx, everyone. Again, it's nice to know I'm not alone.  Especially to know I'm not alone when I say that raising kids is a lonely process at times.

Ironically, my exfrieNd used to point out that part of the "grief" she felt over the breakup of her marriage was losing another adult to share the joys and troubles of raising kids.  And that part of having friends was to fill that void...  which she never acknowledged that I filled.  I was there for her, I was her backup, partner in crime and shoulder to cry on. 

Too bad she was never mine, but, you know, with my unreasonable expectations and all, it just wasn't her fault that she "couldn't be what I wanted her to be"... 

[alatariel]

...and, oh dear gods and goddesses, look what was in my freakin' email today, from my exfrieNd:

I tried to call yesterday and realize that i am blocked. Whats going on? We should talk.. Friendships are hard work. Is it worth throwing


This came from her cell phone, I guess she can send a text to my email, and I'm glad that she ran out of room in her text before she could say anything more.

BLEH.    LEAVE ME THE HELL ALONE!!!!!   Don'tcha think that I blocked your number FOR A REASON, you DUMB BEEYOTCH?????

sorry, I didn't mean to shout at anyone here, but this is hard.  Impossibly hard.  I'm not going to reply to her email.  I'm not going to unblock her number.  I'm not going to do anything at all to feed that drama llama, b/c I realize that anything I say can and will be held against me, and anything I do will be twisted to come out wrong.  Even doing nothing is wrong.


so why is it so damn seductive, to want to believe this is a genuine offer of peace?

[JennyWren]

Oh alatariel...just one word from an N that has gotten under our skin is just so unsettling and vile. Much as we all love e-mail and texts.....Ns can bother so effectively through them. You do right not to respond. 

[CZBZ]

Friends. Well, some friends excel at 'giving' but are terrible at 'taking'. Others 'take' but don't know how to 'give'. This is something I had to learn so now I watch to see if I'm 'taking' more than 'giving' and vice versa because reciprocity is key to building trust. I try to express my concerns as early as possible to see if a friend is willing to be vulnerable with me. I tend to be an intimate person and have learned how to do chit-chatty and shallow relationships at great reluctance. ha! Kinda backwards isn't it but I'm left-handed so there.

I think it's okay to have shallow relationships with people and sometimes that's all they're looking for from you. Knowing from the beginning that someone is only befriending you for a short while (like you're carpooling your kids or sharing responsibilities for group functions), makes everything clear from the beginning. The issue is when someone wants 'more' from the relationship than the other person is willing or capable of giving. Or when, as in your case Alateriel, the friend is unwilling to examine her own behavior and take responsibility for herself.

When I read her text message, it felt like she was leaving out three words: "You stupid idiot". Just stick those three words after every sentence and see how it reads. Sometimes those three words don't fit but in this case, see what you think:

"I tried to call yesterday and realize that i am blocked you stupid idiot. Whats going on you stupid idiot? We should talk..[because] Friendships are hard work you stupid idiot."

Ask yourself how YOU would react in the same situation. It certainly wouldn't be time for to LECTURE your friend saying, "friendships are hard work" (beware of the lecturing email that makes you feel like a bad child). Or trigger a friend's guilt with 'we should talk" yet you won't let her. Be cautious when someone is projecting guilt on to you. Many of us picked up the narcissist's guilt because we are conscientious people. That let the N off the hook and made us sick because we cannot process someone else's guilt for them...

If I were in your friend's shoes, it would be time for me to say "I have taken our friendship for granted and I am sorry."

Hugs,
CZ

[alatariel]

When I read her text message, it felt like she was leaving out three words: "You stupid idiot". Just stick those three words after every sentence and see how it reads. Sometimes those three words don't fit but in this case, see what you think:

"I tried to call yesterday and realize that i am blocked you stupid idiot. Whats going on you stupid idiot? We should talk..[because] Friendships are hard work you stupid idiot."

Ask yourself how YOU would react in the same situation. It certainly wouldn't be time for to LECTURE your friend saying, "friendships are hard work" (beware of the lecturing email that makes you feel like a bad child). Or trigger a friend's guilt with 'we should talk" yet you won't let her. Be cautious when someone is projecting guilt on to you. Many of us picked up the narcissist's guilt because we are conscientious people. That let the N off the hook and made us sick because we cannot process someone else's guilt for them...

If I were in your friend's shoes, it would be time for me to say "I have taken our friendship for granted and I am sorry."

You know, I'm sure she meant to insert the "you stupid idiot" part, but has a hard time texting on a T-9 phone... ROFL

And, actually, "I have taken our friendship for granted and I am sorry." is what I HAVE said to her, other times in this same part of the cycle, attempting to reconcile and make up for my faults.

JennyWren, thanx for the backup in my choice not to respond.  What I'd like to say, would be along the lines of, "'I've been really busy lately living my own life, and I think things are fine just the way they are. See you."

[JennyWren]

The "You stupid idiot" addition puts a whole new slant on things doesn`t it.

I just reread a message NH sent....and now it makes a whole bunch more sense. 

[alatariel]

UGH.  I saw the XNF yesterday.  Just a brief glimpse of her in a store parking lot, and she waved.  I didn't notice her in time to respond in any way, other than keep doing what I was doing and ignore her.

I got home and made lunch and started missing things about being "friends", like having lunch together.

And then I took the air conditioners out of my windows and as I was struggling with the BIG GINORMOUS AC from the living room, I remembered when I put it in back in June.  How I knew there was no point in even asking the XNFfor help, b/c she would never get around to helping, so I had my 12-yr-old son help me.  She stopped by for some reason later that day and asked who had helped me with the AC.  I said my son and I did it ourselves.  First she protested that I "should have asked her, b/c she's always ready to help a friend".  Then she made some nasty remarks about my son not being big-and-strong enough to help. (of course she pretended she was "just joking") I told her to drop it, and after she left, I reassured my son that I was very happy with his help and not to listen to her being a dumba$$.

UGH.  I'm glad I have WoN.  I came and read some of the resources to reassure me that the bogus protests about being available to help and the nasty remarks are all typical N behavior, and it reminded me that I DO NOT WANT HER IN MY LIFE.

[CZBZ]

Isn't it funny that we have to RECALL the bad times in order to protect ourselves from MORE misery? When we're ending a relationship, we focus on the good times, the pleasant memories. We might even blow our good memories WAY out of PROPORTION. It might be an evolutionary-thing. We're focusing on the positive to avoid the 'disconnection' because Connection to one another, in our human history, determined our survival.

But happily today, we don't have to hang out with Neanderthals if we don't want to. ha!


Hugs,
CZ

[pearlsb4swine]

We blow our good memories all out of proportion.  That is so, so true.  I held on to my good memories of my stbxnh so tightly--and yet the really good times were just a fraction of the time we spent together, if I am being truthful with myself.  We had so many pointless fights.   He let me down so many times, in big ways and small ones.  But I just wanted so much to have a happy marriage, and it was like I thought if I tried hard enough and concentrated on the positive I could will it to happen.  If I was a good enough wife.  And I actually succeeded in fooling myself, in shutting down that inner voice that said GET OUT, this ship is going down.

[alatariel]

He let me down so many times, in big ways and small ones.  But I just wanted so much to have a happy marriage, and it was like I thought if I tried hard enough and concentrated on the positive I could will it to happen.  If I was a good enough wife.  And I actually succeeded in fooling myself, in shutting down that inner voice that said GET OUT, this ship is going down.

Oh, dear gravy, you hit that nail BANG! Right on the ol' noggin.  In both nasty relatioNships, with XNF and XNH.

[pearlsb4swine]

Today I'm the one having a hard day and actually missing things about my N.

Today I just keep thinking, My husband doesn't love me any more.  Of course the truth is that he never really did.  But I did feel loved sometimes.  And he could be funny which just slays me.  All our shared history.  He threw it all away.  It's just painful.

I guess no one breaks up a 30 year marriage without crying some days.   I've been doing pretty well for the most  part.

Tomorrow will be a better day.
 

Pearl

[JennyWren]

Pearl 

30 years is a long time. My NH could be funny too....that really was his redeeming feature. He made me laugh. We laughed together.

It`s so unavoidable to miss the times you shared together. Just because they are Ns, doesn`t mean they are a nightmare every day I guess. It is so terribly painful.

Sending you lots of hugs....and hope you get through this wave of sadness soon. They come and they go as we process this stuff....well...that`s my experience anyway. Hang on in there.

[alatariel]

Pearls, so sorry you're missing your XNH.  It's hard.  I was with my XNH for 18 years, and will have him around the fringes of my life until he dies, since we have kids together.  I struggle with the concept that I had to walk away from 18 years of my life, but he was never a partner or spouse.  He was basically a big, bratty child, who was very put-out that the REAL children took precedence over him.  I'm much better off w/o him.

But I miss the shared jokes, the semi-shared joy in the kids, the fact that he's the only person left in the world who knew me 18 years ago.

[pearlsb4swine]

Thanks Jenny and Alatarial.  I feel better today.  Thinking of sadness as a wave helps.  Waves come, and they go, and I will still be standing.  It doesn't last forever.  Some things you just have to live through. 

And it also helps to remember that he was bratty too, and childish, and that he was jealous of his own children at times.  And the kids grew up, but he did not.  And I love my kids and they love me and he is no longer there, causing problems.  My son says I raised three children and two of them turned out pretty well!!!   There is ugliness underneath the charming veneer of a narcissist, and that ugliness is gone from my life. 

Pearl

[alatariel]

I'm having a big crash right now.  It's been six weeks since I boldly went where I had never gone before: total NC with the XNF.

And the indignation, and anger, and frustration, and determination, are wearing off.  It takes a lot of adrenaline to sustain that, and to sustain the anxiety every time she tried to contact me, and keep myself from answering.

I want to let her have it: let her have all the anger, and humiliation, and hurt, just plain garden-variety HURT that she gave me.  I want to back a dump-truck into her driveway and just dump the whole load there, where she'll have to deal with it.  B/c then it'll be in her way all the time.  She'll have to look at it, and move around it, and take it into consideration every time she tries to get to the outside world.  Just like I do.

And while I'm at it, I'm taking that truck down to my XNH's place.  I have a load big enough to bury his house.  He'll be forever digging his way out from under it.  Just like I will be.

Sorry. Autumn is normally my favorite time of year.  I love the cooler weather, and the gorgeous colors, the start of a new school year, harvest, etc.  But this year too many sad things have happened recently and it's making me all melancholy.  I was hoping to make this autumn a time of new beginnings for me, but I'm having a whole lot of trouble believing in that right now.

[pearlsb4swine]

I'm having a big crash right now.  It's been six weeks since I boldly went where I had never gone before: total NC with the XNF.

And the indignation, and anger, and frustration, and determination, are wearing off.  It takes a lot of adrenaline to sustain that, and to sustain the anxiety every time she tried to contact me, and keep myself from answering.

Alatarial, I know that feeling--the crash after the adrenaline fades.  The melancholy.  It will get better.  Don't give up on autumn yet.  It's just beginning. 

I am having a fairly quiet weekend after a few roller coaster weeks, and I feel a little flat and disconnected.  But I know this is how I react to stress and loss, and I will bounce back.  Just take care of yourself. 

It's a beautiful cool night.  I am planning a good book, a glass of wine, and a fire in the fireplace.  One of the pleasures of autumn.   I wish a little pleasure of autumn for you this weekend too.

Pearls

[smp]

I think for me, the thought of having no close connection with another adult would have been very difficult. I was fortunate to have many friends near. I also have the ability to have a real heart to heart with someone I have never met before in line at the grocery store! I do know I had to write a list of all the awful things about n, to be able to pull out and remind myself. I never had to use it because pigface was such a "not nice guy." Have you tried taking classes or volunteering somewhere? Volunteer at your kids' school - you will be in a positive environment, doing something positive for yourself and for others. I am a social person, and I do need to connect with others. I love coming here!

[CZBZ]

"Sorry. Autumn is normally my favorite time of year.  I love the cooler weather, and the gorgeous colors, the start of a new school year, harvest, etc.  But this year too many sad things have happened recently and it's making me all melancholy.  I was hoping to make this autumn a time of new beginnings for me, but I'm having a whole lot of trouble believing in that right now."

Just an aside, Alateriel but have you ever wondered about your friend having serious mood swings? Your last post on this thread reminded me of my own feelings towards my sister...Autumn is notorious for depression-related illnesses so if your friend was worse in the fall than even winter, for example, you may be writing about the terrible tole mood disorders take on other people. And also, lest anyone misinterpret my comment: just because you have a diagnosis for someone, that does not excuse their behavior NOR imply that you should forgive, forget and continue being mistreated. The one thing a diagnosis does for us as friends-and-family is allow us to extricate ourselves from 'blame'. Relational conflicts are about personality and mood---not the quality of your empathy, sympathy or ability to create relationships.


"Today I just keep thinking, My husband doesn't love me any more.  Of course the truth is that he never really did.  But I did feel loved sometimes.  And he could be funny which just slays me.  All our shared history.  He threw it all away.  It's just painful. I guess no one breaks up a 30 year marriage without crying some days.   I've been doing pretty well for the most  part." ~PearlsB4Swine

I take a very wishy-washy view of the idea that a narcissist 'never' loved his family/partner. You can get into these semantic arguments with people who proceed to define love based on their definitions and that can feel extremely invalidating to someone who experienced 'love'. Or even worse, they tell you that what "YOU" called love was toxic immaturity or co-dependence or trauma bonding or any other means they have of saying their definition is superior to your 'inferior' concept of love you big idiot don't you read books like they do. I find this utterly disgusting.

And perhaps a narcissist has a distorted sense of love because he or she is excessively self-focused but that does not mean they have not loved you or their family. Narcissists are capable of loyalty which to me, suggest they are capable of love...probably not in the Perfect Definition of Love but 'good enough' definition of love. There is most definitely, a difference between a roving narcissist who is not capable of a long-term relationship and those that are. Narcissism can increase in severity as a person ages so I do not believe narcissists have never 'loved' their family or partner. They change overtime and their pathology becomes pronounced, even entrenched.

Usually though, people find some consolation in the idea that narcissists never ever loved them. It's almost easier to end the relationship if you believe that, though it insults your integrity and self-worth to the very core to believe you were nothing more than a serviceable object. Perhaps our perceptions of the relationship also change during a grieving process? AT first, I couldn't afford to believe my X loved me because i kept waiting for him to 'wake up' and in the meantime, I was STUCK in limbo and hurting myself (and my family).

I can allow myself some sad days now. And i can even entertain the idea that he loved me because I won't react or cry for very long. The thing is, to me, narcissists may love other people but their love is no good. It's no good because it isn't about the other person, it's all about themselves. And what good is love if you can't depend on someone being there when you're old and ugly and broken? Sick and poor and miserable? What good is love if it only benefits the lover?  I think my X loved me and his family but his love is no good to anyone but himself.

I was happy to see you posting about your feelings, Pearls. This is how I was able to manage my big, huge overwhelming waves of grief without resorting to magical thinking or any other defense lessening the pain. People said they were crying too and it made my lousy day more tolerable.


Hugs,
CZ

[alatariel]

I have a really hard time convincing myself that the moments of connection, the shared jokes, the fun and laughter, the interdependence with XNF were all totally fake.  There were times I would swear she cared about me, even "loved" me.  I like your definition, CZ,

The thing is, to me, narcissists may love other people but their love is no good. It's no good because it isn't about the other person, it's all about themselves. And what good is love if you can't depend on someone being there when you're old and ugly and broken? Sick and poor and miserable? What good is love if it only benefits the lover?

That's what was wrong with her "love", she was never there for me when I was sick and miserable.  Never there when I needed or just wanted help.  Her idea of "being there" was to turn anything and everything into being all about her.  If I called her b/c I was having a hard time and needed a shoulder to "cry on", she'd turn the conversation into a monologue about herself.  If I asked her for help with a project, and she actually did help, I was expected to be eternally grateful and shout from the mountaintops what a wonderful person she was.