ACK! might have to see XNF tonight.

[alatariel]

Oh, crap.  It's the elementary school open house tonight, and my younger son and XNF's daughter are in the same class.  The open house only lasts an hour, chances are good that I'll run into her there. Crap, crap, crap, crap.  I'm fairly sure she'd maintain her dignity in front of ppl and just walk by with a casual "hey", but I'm not sure what to do if her kid wants to talk to me/my kid.

I know I have to face her sooner or later, or completely isolate myself, we live in a small town and are bound to run into each other.  I'm just really not up for it at the moment.

now I'm thinking how to manipulate the situation so as not to run into her.  She's always late for everything, so maybe if I get there right at the beginning and don't stick around long, I can get by.  It's not fair to my son not to attend his open house and see his pictures and projects that he's been waiting to show off.

[alatariel]

Whew!  Crisis averted.  Son came home with a note from his teacher that she won't be at the open house, so I dodged that bullet.  My older son is in the Jr. High now, so I don't have to see his teachers tonight, either.

But, I'd still welcome any suggestions from anyone as to how to handle this in the future, b/c I'm sure I'll run into her at other school functions...

[daisyk9292]

Oh my! That is a toughie. I had no idea your kids were in the same class! You are going to have to deal with seeing her sooner or later. The best I can say, is just remain calm, and be brief, try to stay focused on your kids, or whatever you're doing as if she isn't really there. Don't get sucked into a conversation.

I'm sure the elders on the board will have some good suggestions for you on how to best handle this. 

[bellelang83]

You could probably just keep conversation to an absolute minimum. When my X saw an old friend of his at a screening once, he made a beeline for him with me in tow (we had just started going out) because he wanted to flaunt the fact that he had snagged a young girlfriend. They hadn't spoken to each other for a while after a major falling out and the friend looked tentative when we made acquaintance and in retrospect I can imagine why. But he kept conversation to a minimum, just some social niceties and the first opportunity he had to 'escape' he said goodbye and went off with his partner. But the thing about that exchange that stayed with me was the fact that my partner wasn't interested in connecting with an old friend, he was merely showing me off, and was also showing me he was connected with someone of his friend's calibre (a bona-fide English professor) as he was trying to rope me into his life at the time and he was a grifter (and didn't have much to show for his life as you can imagine). As long as you keep the fact that most exchanges with your friend will merely be to advance some interest of her own in the forefront of your mind, I think you will keep her at arm's length.

[alatariel]

oh, good gravy, I never thought about her bringing a new NS to school functions, etc., but she would.  She hates to do anything alone.

Crap.  Well, I'm just really glad I didn't have to go to the open house.  I don't feel as though I have enough distance yet to survive talking to her.

[CZBZ]

Hi Alateriel,

I'll bet every person on the forum has a 'few' people they no longer consider 'friends' (as in Intimate and Trustworthy bosom buddies).I have a couple on my short list, too though relocating tends to resolve the random encounter problem. BUT, if I were you, I'd come up with a list of statements such as, "Hi. How are you? I am fine. See ya."  Saying NOTHING attracts more interest and gossip than saying something.

Onlookers never miss the ignoring routine---which keeps speculation going. It also increases the drama for spectators and participants.

Don't ask her questions that encourage conversation, and don't start apologizing or crying, and don't look uncomfortable in the LEAST. The best thing to do is to memorize a few statements you can repeat robotically, without revealing anything personal or encouraging her to do so.

You can say:

1- "The weather sure is hot today!" (or cold, depending on the season) 

2- "How about those *insert favorite sports team here* ?" 

3-  "Do you think we should return to the gold standard as a mandated end to fractional-reserve banking?" 

The ULTIMATE in passive-aggression:

4- "Let's do lunch someday." 

5- "Don't call me. I'll call you..." 


Anybody else had innocuous meaningless but socially acceptable things to say?

Hugs,
CZ

[alatariel]

The only thing I have going for me, is that I manage to fly under the radar in our tiny town.  Nobody knows me, nor knows anything about me, other than that I was her friend.  I keep to myself, only socialize with a few ppl, and never do anything to call attention to myself in public. 

But, you're right, it would look very odd at the school to ignore her, since ppl know we were "close". (joined at the hip for 3 years!)

[CZBZ]

You're wise to protect yourself from yourself. I just hate it when someone asks me 'why' I'm not friends with so-and-so....depending on my mood (or how tired I am at the time), I might spill my guts! So I circumvent situations like that because people are curious...they wanna know. Some days I say too much and live to regret my behavior. Usually, soft eyes 'get to me' and when someone tenderly and without malice, wants to know what happened, I might go into detail. I know this about myself and that's why I think about and prepare for chance encounters, just like you're doing.

As long as I can maintain a civil relationship that is polite but distanced, everyone is better off. People have better things to do with their lives than gossip.

Hugs,
CZ

[alatariel]

Oh, dear, I haven't thought about what to say to ppl who might ask why we don't hang out any more.  As I said on my journal, I've told a couple of my friends why, but those are ppl who genuinely care about me, so it's their business to know.  But I never prepared anything to say to random ppl, or worse, to HER FRIENDS.

[CZBZ]

Oh, I know! It's so difficult! I have mumbled something like, "Gosh, you know how busy our lives can get!"

In your situation though, you were very close with her so people expect more than what I just wrote. And since you know her friends will be reporting back whatever you say, you'll have to think this through very carefully to end the DRAMA.

[alatariel]

Oh, lovely.  I am subbing at the high school today, and two of the trolls kids are in high school.  As there are only about 80 kids in the entire high school, it's a pretty sure bet that I'll have at least one of her kids. (I'm subbing for social studies, there is only one social studies teacher)

I don't have any quarrel with the kids, and I actually wish it was possible to have some kind of relationship with them, but as their mother is a raving narcissist, it's not going to happen.

[RB22]

Alatariel,

The HS kids are of an age where they know she is 'not' right.  They may not know she is a N, but they know she isn't like the other moms.  Subbing might be a way to keep a relationship with these kids.  Afterall, Mom isn't around.

Good luck,

RB

[JennyWren]

Usually, soft eyes 'get to me' and when someone tenderly and without malice, wants to know what happened, I might go into detail. I know this about myself and that's why I think about and prepare for chance encounters, just like you're doing.

I have a nasty tendency to blurt my heart out if someone asks. I can keep quiet....but when I go....I go! And I have to stop doing that. I do manage to have stock brief answers to the obvious questions....it`s when people go off script I am still likely to over-spill the beans.

Definitely "less is more" I would say. People can always ask more questions if they want more information I suppose. I wish someone would tell my mouth that!

Glad you didn`t have to chance an encounter with XNF alatariel. Hopefull, with more opportunity to think how you might react, you will be ready next time.

[Julia]

There are a lot of people that you can basically blow off (politely), like CZ describes. However there are those mutual acquaintances who we want to stay friendly with - or the nosy person may be our sister, SIL, the music teacher that your kids and hers take from, etc. With these people, I believe in truth and iron boundaries.  I also believe in role playing: think of exactly who is going to say what, and come up with the response. If the person is basically normal, just gossipy, it eventually heads them off at the pass.

Here is a possible scenario:

Nosy mutual acquaintance of NF: "What happened between you and NF, I never see the two of you together anymore?"

alatariel: "We don't see each other anymore, that's true." changing subject.... "Is your d still taking dance classes??"

Nosy mutual acquaintance of NF:  "Yes, she is. Sooo...., what happened?"

alatariel: " That is really between her and I." Pause and look hard  at her for about three seconds. Then  lightly ask- "Tell me, do you think kids this age should buy Halloween costumes or be creative and figure something out on their own? What do you do?"

Nosy mutual acquaintance of NF: " We just buy them. I heard that you had a big falling out and that you ......."

alatariel: interrupting her "JANE!, I don't gossip, OK?" wait and see if she can behave herself, let her change the subject this time.....or if she cant....just shake you head and walk away. She may apologize later.


There are actually people who are cruel enough that they enjoy bringing this kind of thing up even more aggressively than the above example. People who you have barely ever spoken to who expect you to rant and dish some dirt.  Perhaps it makes them feel like they are young and still in Middle School? For these go for the ultimate brush-off  " Well, if I wanted to let everyone in town know all about this I could put it on a billboard on Main St., or I could just tell you... "  and then walk off.


Role-playing works. When my bff got pregnant again after 11 years of secretly trying, she was so scared about what her friends, acquaintances, and colleagues would say, and ask. She really did not want to have ANY conversations about the details.  So we did role playing for months and she finally felt good about variations on ....."Whoa! let me stop you right there....John, Susan and I are just THRILLED about the twins." And it worked like a charm. In our first role-playing sessions she was angry, teary, speechless ... but we kept at it, and talked through it. We said ridiculous things just to make her laugh. By her 4th month she was ready to take on the nosiest person, and she kept her cool beautifully, even when they asked her point blank about in-vitro, or if the nosy person hinted they would rather abort than be pregnant again.......!!!!!!!!!!!!!


My point about this is that if we feel ready to take on whatever sort of conversation may arrive... we do not have to isolate ourselves in order to avoid the unpleasantness. We get to be ourselves, only stronger, rather than be victimized further. Yes, it takes some time and effort. Yes we have to face some dreads. But it is worth it.

Julia

[RB22]

Julia, what a cool friend you are. Twins are a blessing.... tell your friend that.. in case she doesn't know that yet.  A LOT of work, but a blessing.

Another suggestion:

Dear Abby or Ann Landers (can't remember which one) used to tell people who were the recipient of those nosy questions to ask the person.." Why do you want to know?"   When I can remember it... it works.

[CZBZ]

Nice post, Julia! There's another kind of gossipy--malicious friend and that's the one who invites you to lunch, acting as though she's your best bud ever and she only wants to renew the relationship and hear about your kids, what you're doing these days, how your parents are. Yea, right. But the pretense of sincerity and 'leading questions' can lull us into softening our boundaries just a little. Then the probing questions begin and since we are feeling 'seen-and-heard' (these kinds of people are extraordinarily good at listening when they want to), we spill the beans.

Then we go home and worry ourselves silly about what she will do with that information--especially when the relationship goes back the way it used to be and yet, she holds private knowledge we gave her under the guise of 'intimacy.' Talk about anxiety...and self-blame!

I'm not the suspicious type BUT if someone is acting all gooey-chewy with me when our relationship has NOT been tested, I remain cautious. Some people are out-and-out obvious snoops but some are covert manipulators and when you are hurting or lonely or sad or feeling rejected, its' very easy to fall for their game.

I'm only kiddin' a little here BUT you might be able to tell if you maintained good boundaries if she insists you split the tab. If she offers to pay for the entire lunch, you'd better go home and cry in your room for a couple of hours. If she offers to buy you another lunch the next day, you'd best pack your bags and move to another state. 

Hugs,
CZ

[alatariel]

There's another kind of gossipy--malicious friend and that's the one who invites you to lunch, acting as though she's your best bud ever and she only wants to renew the relationship and hear about your kids, what you're doing these days, how your parents are. Yea, right. But the pretense of sincerity and 'leading questions' can lull us into softening our boundaries just a little. Then the probing questions begin and since we are feeling 'seen-and-heard' (these kinds of people are extraordinarily good at listening when they want to), we spill the beans.

Oh, dear gravy, that's how the troll caught me in the first place!  There was nothing to renew, as we had never met before she started talking to me on the preschool bus. But soon, all too soon (as I didn't see until this moment) she was asking me leading questions and giving me all the doe-eyed attention my lonely little heart desired.

Good advice about the role-playing, Julia.


I can't believe my luck, neither of her kids has social studies this semester!!!   I saw her daughter for about 30 seconds as she was signing out of study hall and that was it.  She waved, I waved, and on she went.

[Julia]

RB, the twins are GREAT and are now 16 months. I nanny them two days a week this year and last while my friend works. I even got to take care of them one night a week when they were newborns until they  slept through the night. It was the only way my friend was going to make it since her hubby refused to do night duty. And, yes, I get paid for this work. Quite well, since I also make dinner and do light housecleaning as well.

Julia

[alatariel]

Julia, sounds like a great situation for both you and your friend with the twins. 

The emotional baggage from seeing the troll's daughter didn't surface till last night, when I had to remind myself YET AGAIN that my "relationship" with the troll was really that bad.

CZ mentioned fair-weather friends on another post, and I started driving myself crazy this morning, wondering if the troll was simply a fair-weather friend from whom I expected too much, which is exactly what the troll, herself, tried to tell me more than once.  But, by the end of the "friendship", I expected exactly nothing from her.  I didn't even expect her to answer the phone if I called!

But, that didn't stop her expecting everything from me.  I was expected to answer the phone, any time, day or night.  I was expected to let her borrow everything from a crochet hook to my car.  I was expected to watch her youngest kid at the drop of a hat, no matter what else I had going on.  I was expected to give her a ride to a party and refrain from drinking so I could be the designated driver.  I was expected to sit quietly in a corner and allow her to completely ignore my existence at the party.  I was expected to listen to all her gripes and complaints about life, the universe and everything, and to proffer advice or suggestions, just so she could tell me how stupid all my ideas are.  I was expected to never complain or even to talk about my life, b/c it bored her to listen...

[CZBZ]

"CZ mentioned fair-weather friends on another post, and I started driving myself crazy this morning, wondering if the troll was simply a fair-weather friend from whom I expected too much, which is exactly what the troll, herself, tried to tell me more than once.  But, by the end of the "friendship", I expected exactly nothing from her.  I didn't even expect her to answer the phone if I called! " ~Alateriel

You can't know you are expecting too much until your friend doesn't follow through on her promises. My guess is that she 'appeared' to want an intimate and reciprocal relationship that was trustworthy like two best friends who can wake each other up at 2:00am if needs be. As I recall from your messages, she could wake YOU up to meet her demands but was unwilling to grant you the same kindness? You Gave first. She didn't Give Back as required for trustworthy friendships.

I think (and this is speculation from your messages), that you offered her intimacy and mutual respect, kindness and 'love'. She wanted that...and maybe thought she could return it in kind but she couldn't. Then she feels like a shitass because she resents being asked to return your favors so her natural predisposition is to get angry at YOU (even the the deficit is in herself) because you CAN do things for other people that she cannot.

What you have to ask yourself is whether or not you want 'fair weather friends' once you realize someone is incapable of the bonding intimacy you are capable of creating with a friend. Some people 'think' they want an intimate friendship but once they're in a relationship that can deepen to that level, they discover they CANNOT do it. Maybe they are too afraid because they can't trust other people that much. Maybe they're too self-centered and don't want to 'give back' to anyone. Maybe they only see what 'they' have done and don't recognize what they have been given. Maybe they're just selfish children at heart and will never mature ever.

But you cannot know that until they don't meet you on the same level. Then you have the power to make a choice to: #1- be a fair-weather friend in return; #2- to end the relationship forever; #3- to be a teacher and help her learn how to be intimate.

 I would not recommend suggestion #3.

Suggestion #1 means practicing boundaries and checking your expectations on a routine basis

Suggestion #2 is hard to live with because of the  gossiping and the 'pain' we feel when we are lovable and loving people who prefer amiable relationships (peacekeepers)

Hugs,
CZ

[alatariel]

Thanx, CZ.  I tried suggestion #3, all that got me was deeper into the N-mess.  So, in order to get myself out of it, I tried #1.  All that did was enable me to take a good, hard look at her actions, as opposed to her words, and realize that she is what you describe:

too self-centered and don't want to 'give back' to anyone. Maybe they only see what 'they' have done and don't recognize what they have been given. Maybe they're just selfish children at heart and will never mature ever.

All of the above, and a raviNg N.

What I'm left with, is suggestion #2, which is causing me considerable pain, but that pain has to be less than the pain of continually being used, emotionally abused, and criticized.

Which is why I ignored the phone, b/c she (or someone at her number) called a few minutes ago.  I switched phone service, and the new one doesn't provide number blocking.  I bet her daughter mentioned that she saw me at school yesterday.  Grrrrrrrrr.  Why, after someone went to such lengths to NOT speak to you for nearly 2 months, would you even bother trying to call them?  Why can't she get the hint?  When there has been someone around my life that I've liked as little as she apparently liked me, I've been quite satisfied when they've quit speaking to me.  I sure as heck didn't try to call them!

[CZBZ]

Exactly, Alateriel! WHY is she still stalking calling you? Can someone please give the woman a hint? A normal person would realize it was your decision to end the relationship and even if they felt sorrowful about it, they would NOT harass you with phone calls. See, I kinda think normal people RESPECT the other person's right to end the relationship even if they felt bad about it---or wanted to make amends. They might try apologizing once but after that, they cried in their soup and moved on. That's life.

I know you keep wondering if you've been too harsh with your BFF...however, each time you post, the evidence stacks up against her as being 'normal'. You have to ask yourself what you (or other people) would do if you were her. Would you seriously keep calling, knowing that person is uncomfortable EACH TIME you call? Would you send your kids like little scouts to see if the coast was clear? Would you write more than two emails at the most before GRANTING that person their private space and their right to end the relationship? I've had a couple of online friends dump me like a hot potato and after I inquired once, I let them be. I respect their right to make me feel terrible, LOL!!!

You tried working things out with your BFF and she didn't change. That is quite different from being dumped without reason. That's a n-maneuver. What you did is a friend-maneuver. It sounds to me like your User-friend threw away a perfectly good friendship and now she is harassing you because she knows you have a tender heart and a guilty conscience.


Hugs,
CZ
 

[alatariel]

I do have a very tender heart, and a very guilty conscience.  And really few friends, no family, and days go by when I don't even get to speak to another adult.  See why I was such easy prey?

I just want to make it clear that she initiated the "friendship".  When we met, I figured she was fun to talk to, enjoyed her company, but I certainly didn't call her or push it beyond seeing each other while our kids were at baseball practice.  She called me and invited me to bring my younger son over for a playdate with her little girl, b/c they were friends at school.  After that, she called to invite me to come hang out, which progressed to calling me day and night, which progressed to leaning on me pretty heavily as a friend, which progressed rapidly to putting me in the position of either "significant-other-without-benefits" or "sister-from-another-mister", depending on what she wanted that day.

[CZBZ]

Some friends push to see how much you'll give and you know, they may be 'given to' for decades. They'll do a few things here-and there but nothing outside of their comfort zone. She was likely testing to see how 'serviceable' you were.

I'm sorry you don't have a lot of friends if that bothers you. I don't have tons of friends either. Usually we are deeply connected friends or we're casual acquaintances. Some people don't need a lot of friends and it doesn't mean they are unhealthy or depressed or socially deficient. 

A lot of narcissists have tons of friends and are mistakenly assumed to be 'normal', socially adjusted human beings.


Hugs,
CZ

[alatariel]

A lot of narcissists have tons of friends and are mistakenly assumed to be 'normal', socially adjusted human beings.

Oh, yeah, troll was good at pointing that out to me.  It was yet-another-symptom of my social maladjustment, that I didn't have tons of friends like she does.

  I'm actually a bit of an introvert, which, in her mind, is equivalent to a disease or disorder.  I'm comfortable alone, and need my down-time away from ppl, but I'm fine in small groups of ppl I like, or with one or two friends.  I even still have 3 ppl I consider actual friends.  But I've been burned very badly by ppl I thought were friends, so I'm reserved about being close to anyone.  I'm very careful not to ask for much, or push myself on anyone.