can you tell if a child is on the way to becoming an N?

[alatariel]

If you have a child who has an N for a parent, how do you know if the child is on the way to becoming one?

I ask, b/c I've gotten to the last straw with my oldest lying to me.  His lies are all stupid ones now, and easily caught, but since he's almost 13 the lies are going to start getting bigger and more dangerous.  I'm worried about this, b/c it seems he lies to me as easily as he breathes.  I'm worried that it's a sign of either extremely low self-esteem, or low self-esteem leading to narcissism, b/c it doesn't seem to bother him when he gets caught and faces the consequences.  I'm disturbed b/c this lying reminds me a lot of their father, the dickhead N, and of the troll: both of them would say to me whatever they thought would shut me up, regardless if it was true or not.

I don't know what to do.  Currently, he's facing a week of no TV/video games for his recent lie about making his bed, but it doesn't seem to bother him.  IDK what else to do.  Dickhead isn't going to punish, he'll allow a weekend full of all the TV time the kid wants, b/c dickhead is such an N that he doesn't make the kids follow rules, since that would be inconvenient for dickhead to enforce them.  In addition, dickhead isn't going to support my concern at all, b/c HIS son is perfect, and I'm just a dumb beeyotch. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if dickhead encourages the kids to say whatever will shut me up!

[Imogene]

I don't think it's useful to think of our kids as developing personality disorders when they lie or speak to us disrespectfully.  At the same time, given their constant interaction with your ex and their genetics, there is a real risk of that happening, so it would be senseless never to consider it, either. 

I have the same problems with X.  Before you came aboard, I was writing in here often about my daughter's disrespect toward me, which was openly sanctioned by her father.  Now that he's not around to watch me suffer, her behavior has improved, but one thing I would NEVER do is count on him to impose discipline.  He has NEVER disciplined my daughter, except for the time she opened an orange juice container because she didn't like the brand of juice he'd bought (which was already open).  Then he made her pay for the juice with her allowance money.  But he decided that, since the juice was still good, a better punishment would be to buy him three dollars worth of candy instead.  WTF.  He doesn't discipline her because it feels good to spoil her and because it's a drag to follow through and because he is so tuned out he doesn't notice a lot of her behavior in the first place.  Sounds familiar, right?

So I get where you're coming from, completely.  Let me ask you something.  How conscientious is your son?  Does he feel remorse when someone is hurting?  Does he feel remorse when he lets you down?  Does he display a huge sense of entitlement, expecting toys for good behavior and running down your efforts to connect in any other way?  To me, those are more important  indicators of future narcissism than lying.  The lying could just be a cry for help.

Have you considered more creative forms of punishment?  Like making him wash your car or help out at a soup kitchen--things that can't be balanced by your ex's indulgence?  My daughter's not old enough for that yet, but it's my next disciplinary tier. 

[alatariel]

He doesn't act entitled, but he has no respect for his stuff, either.  He doesn't take care of things, b/c he figures it'll be replaced with a bigger and better one if he loses or breaks something.

I think taking him to volunteer in a soup kitchen or at the animal shelter are great ideas.  He has empathy towards smaller kids and animals, but absolutely no patience for peers who are "stupid", nor for his brother.

[RB22]

Alatariel,

Kids therapist tried to explain to me that Most teens will lie... till they get caught and have to pay the consequences.... and she also told me what works for one... will not work for the other.   So a fair and equal policy will not work across the board with siblings. 

So what is a mother to do???    She suggested finding something that would work for each kid.  I have kids who would gladly sit in their room... (no, they do not have TV's in their rooms) But take away a phone... for a couple of them... life might as well end.  Another is ok with her phone being taken away... but curb her driving priviledges.."mom has to drive you everywhere"... OMG... she could crawl under a rock and just about die from embarassment.  Another (younger) D started decieving me earlier.. (just like your son)  telling me she did things, that were NOT done.   Well.... phone did not work, room time did not work... I did discover that she was counting down the days (from 12) till she got her license.  For every lie she told... it would take one day AFTER her birthday before she was allowed to get her permit.. which state law requires her to have for 365 days.  I got her attention with that.... BUT when I added that if it took her 3 days to make her bed AFTER she lied... I would add another 3 days of no permit.   I even put it on a calendar to keep track right on the fridge so she wouldn't miss it. 

My kids know I HATE lies... so the punishment for lying is double what it would be if they told the truth.  I tried to keep them from following dad's lessons of lying by omission.

I have grounded my kids.... and called coaches telling them my kid will not be at a practice and why.  It gave my kid another adult to be accountable to for lying.  They hated it..but it helped to instill the lessons that other people do not like being lied to. 

It was tough... and either it's gotten better or they have gotten better at hiding their lies.

[tango3]

Like RB says all kids lie - it's normal - they are born lying! 

I make it clear to all mine that I will forgive anything except lying (well probably wouldn't forgive murder and mayhem).  My oldest (who's father is not an N) stopped lying fairly young - at about 14/15 or so.  The other two - took them longer to grow out of it, the girl I'm not so sure of, but she's the most like Toad, the youngest with the mood disorder, he's slowly realising that lying isn't good and he's just a lot more honest.  I also think he has a strong fear of being just like Toad - if that wouldn't drive anyone honest I don't know what would.

[workingthruit]

Removing the bedroom door of a teenager is a great way to get their attention.

workin'

[tango3]

Removing the bedroom door was what Toad did to my youngest.  Not something I'd recommend. 

Oh and as for teenagers not respecting their things - I think that's simply a symptom of today.  Something breaks, you go out and get a new whatever and boys seem to be notoriously bad at not taking care of things.  It's infuriating, but eventually they mature somewhat (well hopefully they do), but mostly when they have to start buying their own stuff and pay to replace it when they don't take care of it, they start being a bit more careful:)

[RB22]

I buy the first Ipod.. if it breaks because they are careless... then they buy the replacement. 

It works.  All the Ipods that I bought somehow ended up in the washing maching... about the time the new ones were readily available.  I haven't bought an Ipod since the first set took a bath.  But somehow... they all have new ones. 

I can't afford to give them everything they want... and even if I could... they would be working toward paying for at least 1/2 of it.   A financial advisor at a big 10 school told us... "kids who recieve full scholarships still need to pay for something... otherwise the education will mean nothing to them.  Todays college kids are not like the college kids when we were in college.  They are expecting mommy and daddy to pay for it. So they don't feel the need to work at being education.  If they have to pay even $100 a month.. they will take their education more seriously, and they will be invested in it."  He's right.

[nutella]

Empathy, tears and understanding (to their capacity). 

 I am concerned about the youngest one. So are several of her siblings.  I am watching it closely. 

[alatariel]

Thanx for all your responses.  I'm watching closely.  The no-TV thing is bothering him somewhat, especially when his brother is happily watching it.  I talked in a fairly calm way about the lying, w/o losing it, yelling, screaming, blaming, etc.  I told him what my concern is and why.  I think he understands by now: if mom is yelling and losing her cool, it'll be a short-lived blow; but when mom gets calm and rational, look out!

I don't like to say anything negative about their father to the kids, so I compared the behavior to the troll's behavior. My son has witnessed the troll lying, saying whatever ppl want to hear just to shut them up.  I reminded him that it's one of the reasons I don't have anything to do with her any more, b/c she's not trustworthy.

I know that all kids lie, and I guess the lying is a trigger for me so I focus on it more than some parents might.  But it still doesn't make it ok.  And it makes me worry, I really don't want to have my kids turn out to be narcissists like their idiot father.

[RB22]

The no-TV thing is bothering him somewhat, especially when his brother is happily watching it.  I talked in a fairly calm way about the lying, w/o losing it, yelling, screaming, blaming, etc.  I told him what my concern is and why.  I think he understands by now: if mom is yelling and losing her cool, it'll be a short-lived blow; but when mom gets calm and rational, look out!

Nothing helps drive home a restriction better than a sibling's "I get to do this- and you don't and WHY is that?"  Hopefully he thinks twice before he lies again.  If it happens again, have you thought out your next punishment?  Therapist told me to plan in advance... so this way I wasn't caught off guard while trying to reign in my emotions. It was a good idea.

I have also held off stating what the punishment was (till I thought of one) for a day or 2... I told the kid I needed to calm down first.. then I would think of one and let them know.  THAT thru one kid for a loop.. especially said in a very calm controlled voice. 

Yep calm really lets my kids know they messed up BIG.    It is also practice for us when they get older and the big stuff really happens.. car accidents... unplanned pregnancy.  etc. 

[RB22]

Him reflecting on his actions is a good thing... very UN-Nish.

[alatariel]

Yep calm really lets my kids know they messed up BIG.    It is also practice for us when they get older and the big stuff really happens.. car accidents... unplanned pregnancy.  etc.

That was actually part of my "lecture", I told him that if I can't trust him to make his bed or brush his teeth w/o lying, how am I going to trust him to make the right choice when the big stuff comes up: drinking, drugs, sex, driving too fast or riding with drunk ppl.

[RB22]

Exactly... amnesty extends ONLY so far.

As I typed the piece you quoted my phone rang.. D 16 was accused of hitting a man(elderly) who turned the corner and pulled out in front of her while she ran a red light.     She didn't think she hit him.. and continued on to school.  He followed her.. yelling at her in the parking lot.  Someone (probably in the attendance office, they know her) called the school resource officer.  He came.  Elderly man wanted contact info, Deputy did not want D to give this man her cell phone number and asked permission to give him my cell phone number.  My car is in the shop, this is truck is borrowed from a friend.  Deputy wasn't accusing her, the other driver was. 

I called back a bit ago..spoke to the deputy.  He said the man should NOT be driving, deputy gave him directions on how to get back to the main road (just retrace your driving, literally 2 blocks off the main road)  and the man stopped and asked the administrator at the parking lot entrance the same question. 

Vice principal saw the accident.. my kid ran the red light.. and he did pull in front of her. He praised her for stopping quickly... and he said he didn't think that she hit him.   According to the deputy, the man is at fault, he entered the intersection.   The deputy looked at both vehicles.. a 6 inch scratch.. deputy said even he couldn't be sure it came from the truck she was driving.  Hieght is questionable. and no damage to friends truck. In his opinion... he didn't think she hit him but his opinion doesn't count, as he reminded me.

In my book my kid is still at fault.... for running the yellow/red light.We will see what she says when she gets home!!!

Off to work, now that I am awake.

[alatariel]

oh, cripes, RB!     That sucks.  Yeah, I agree that your kid was at fault, too, and I'm surprised the deputy didn't tell her that.  She still ran a light, even if the dipwad did pull out in front of her.  I hope the guy doesn't want to sue or something!

But this proves the point I tried to make to my son, if I can't trust his word on stupid, little stuff, how would I be able to take his word for a situation like that?  If you don't mind, I would like to relate that story to him?

[RB22]

Use it.  She doesn't know I spoke to the deputy later this morning while she was in class.  I'll let you know what she says.  But I bet she won't be rushing to get thru many more yellow lights, no matter how late it makes her.

Close call, the result is the same...her slowing down just a bit. 

I will not tell her I told you so.... she's probably already saying it to herself anyway!  Sometimes the best instructor is life. Especially when you won't listen to your mom (who does know best-BTW). 

Hugs,

[talia]

But I bet she won't be rushing to get thru many more yellow lights, no matter how late it makes her. .........But I bet she won't be rushing to get thru many more yellow lights, no matter how late it makes her.

Oh ya, RB. I bet she won't be doing that again. I'm glad no serious damage was done and nobody was hurt. This reminds me of an experience I had as a teen. Talk about learning a lesson! I hit the car in front of me stopped at a stop sign. I barely tapped the car, we did talk...no injuries, but they wanted to exchange ins info anyway. Well, the reason I was in such a hurry was I was very close to missing my curfew. I was in a panic over being late, so just took off. Bad, bad mistake. The following afternoon, my step-mother informed me the PD had called and they would issue a warrant for my arrest, if not brought in.. Big mistake to leave scene of accident. I did not realize it was an "accident". Nobody hurt, no visible damage, so on my way I went. Talk about sweating bullets. It all turned out okay, but I definitely learned a lesson. I have to say, in this case, being truthful with step-mom/dad paid off. It would have been much worse had I lied to them about what happened.

Hugs,
t

[Julia]

I just got a call from my 14 yr old d about an hour ago. She has study hall first period and she misread the schedule and so arrived at school late for second period. She knew that the school would call me, and so that helped her do that right thing. This is a d who is basically fine, but needs consequences or she will just do what is easy and pleasing for her. She wanted to hang out in the hall, but I told her to just march on in late.

My kids all do try to lie, when they think they can get away with it. I have a sixth sense that they think is freakish, and so I hope that is keeping the lies down. So many issues to take up with them.... chores...insulting each other....outright violence still at times.... laziness.....and the lying is just ONE MORE.

Julia

[JennyWren]

I guess dealing with Ns makes us vulnerable to being oversensitive in pointing the "Aaargh....it`s an N" finger at our kids.

I know I am always very relieved when I see spontaneous shows of kindness, compassion and empathy. As long as those things raise their heads....and I mean genuine emotions....not the oscar winning N-performance empathy....I am happy.

I watched NH, for example,  get easily tired of his brother`s distress over rejection from Nmother and just go upstairs and play on his nephew`s Xbox. Lying is one thing. It is horrid and sneaky and dishonorable. Inability to connect with and feel for other humans is something quite different. That`s what I keep an eye out for.

[pearlsb4swine]

My daughter did quite a bit of lying as an adolescent, and I worried quite a bit about what kind of person she was becoming.  At the time, I did not know as much about narcissism as I do now or I may have worried even more.  She was also openly disrespectful to me, talked back, etc.  I did not behave that way as a teen, but my parents were Nish alcoholics and my father was abusive, so I was hiding my real self by that age and acting out in other places, like school. 

A book I found very helpful at that time was Get out of my life, but first would you take me and Cheryl to the mall?  I don't remember the author's name.  But he explained the way teenagers develop in a normal home that made sense to me.  And it was very reassuring and he was right about everything when it came to my daughter.  She has turned out to be a fine person, although she has some significant self esteem issues related to her N father.

Pearls

[MoreMyself]

My son lies and always has.  He's 21.  An example - I just got home from holiday and my computer wouldn't power up.  He came running up and checked the plug and it was loose.  I said that was strange, asked if he'd touched my setup while I was away, he said no.  Then I couldn't connect to the internet.  He came running up again and plugged my cable in to the router.  I said that was strange, he said he might have accidentally unplugged me.  Then I noticed my monitor was at a strange angle.  I like it exactly a certain way.  So I asked him outright if he'd been messing around with my computer and he admitted he had disconnected my monitor and tried to connect it to his computer so he could play games with his friends.  I don't know why he didn't just explain it all at the beginning.  His father lied a lot, still does.  It was the Hobbit's way of avoiding accepting responsibility and I really hate that my youngest has picked up on it and is repeating the actions.  I'm beginning to accept that at the age of 21 he's probably never going to change.  So I don't have any advice but just wanted to say that I have a similar problem and can't seem to get him to understand it's better just to front up with the truth than to weave a web that will eventually ensnare him. He also has a lot of N traits like the Hobbit, but appears to have empathy, so I'm hopeful that the lying is more a self-defense mechanism than a symptom of developing narcissism.

[alatariel]

Update: the little darling was caught lying to me about brushing his teeth, and his "no TV" was extended to 2 weeks.  And, he was caught lying to me about doing his homework, and now out comes the big punishment- he is not allowed to attend his friend's slumber party this weekend.

*sigh*  I do love him, but I don't exactly like the kid right this minute.

[RB22]

Alatariel,

Stay strong .... remember life has consequences.  If kids don't learn it now from the little things, how will they know how to handle it when the big stuff happens... like lying to a boss?   The bigger the kid gets.... the bigger the consequences get.  Better to learn the lesson when there are small consequences.

You are a good mom...

Hugs,

RB

[alatariel]

HELP!  I just got the kids' report cards.  The oldest is failing 2 classes, nearly failing 2 others, and doing poorly in 4.  That's 8 out of 11 classes he's doing so badly in.  It is not due to being incapable of doing the work, the kid is highly intelligent.  It's all due to not doing the work, and lying to everyone about it. He thinks he's above doing homework, or doing any work at all.  There's that entitlement thing!  He also blames everyone and anyone possible: it's the school's fault, he didn't have enough time in the day to do the work.  It's my fault, I made him put away his laundry and he didn't have time to do the homework.  It's the other kids' fault, his friends talked to him so much at school so he didn't have time to do the work...

Are you sure he's not a budding narcissist?

I feel stymied about this.  Absolutely helpless.  The last time this happened, he was in 5th grade and I happened to be out of town for training for work when the excrement hit the fan.  Dickhead was taking care of the kids for that week, and he pulled a "big man act".  He worked for another local school district at the time, and he called the administration of our school, dropped names and intimidated our son's (female!) teacher.  He blamed me, the teacher, and the school.  He pulled a "concerned father" act and swore he'd take care of it, punish the kid and make sure he did all his homework and maintain regular contact with the teacher to make sure it was all going well.

Yeah, right.  That lasted all of a week after I got back, then dickhead forgot about it.  After that it was all up to me, and of course I signed all the homework and maintained contact with the teacher, and the problem was resolved, for that year.  Last year, in 6th grade, I had regular contact with the teacher, and when my son started slacking off on the work, we got on top of it and kept him basically on track.

Come this year and 7th grade, and his grades are in the toilet due to his lying and slacking off.  I can't involve dickhead, it's a waste of everyone's time and my anguish and energy.  I know I need to go to the school and meet with each and every one of his 11 different teachers, and make arrangements for me to sign off on all his homework to see that it gets done.  But, what else can I do?  How can I help this kid understand that this is really not the way to behave?  How can I make any positive impact on what seem to be set personality traits?

 

[Julia]

Eleven classes seems like an awful lot. My kids have 6, including my 7th grader. I have had periodic problems with homework with my eldest and have tried various methods, less as she gets older (9th now). But, that said, they have to own those grades themselves.

I believe that we can't make them do it.... they just learn to try harder not to do the work to rebel against the punishment.  I have told her (in 6th or 7th grade) that it was up to me to make sure she had time to do HW, so she needed to sit at her desk or the kitchen table for 1/2 hr each night with it being her choice whether or not to do her work. I have tried withholding other things like rides to places she wants to go on the premise that it is her "job" to do her HW, just as it is my "job" to ferry her around, so turnabout was fair play. Ultimately, though, she did want to at least get Cs, and so it was not really such a big deal for me as what you are dealing with.

 I do know that staying calm and saying things like...." Well, you are the one who really gets to decide how soon you are done with school and ready to work to support yourself. College gives a few extra years of parental support, but school can be too much of a drag for some guys who are in a big hurry to grow up."

 P.S. if that line works on your son, it is straight out of Love and Logic for Teens.

Julia