How to Move On After Losing Custody

[NewWings4MeNow]

Hello,

It is clear now that XNH will take custody of d and that she is not communicating with me. 

Given the circumstances I have no particular desire to see her at Thanksgiving, I don't know what to do with her furnishings, I don't know whether to stay in San Diego or not and I don't know what to say to d at all.

Last year at this time d and I were preparing for Thanksgiving and celebrated a lovely Christmas together.  Last year at this time she still talked to me and shared her life with me.  At this point she's shut me out completely and has XNH's help to do it.

Just weeks ago we were together in Silicon Valley and I did my best to create a pleasant time with and for her and stay connected however I could.

I am done with any efforts to try to hold on to whatever vestiges of relationship are left between us and to, I guess, pretend that she feels anything for me but contempt.

Right now I don't know if I should give up custody or accept XNH's demanded terms which require me to pay for travel, give them whatever time they want and transport d to his family.  Right now I feel zero obligation to any of this and certainly am not going to pay for a thing if I return to Silicon Valley.

Right now I'm more convinced than ever about the mind of the person I've been forced to deal with all these years.  And right now I feel really sorry for d and for what this will do to our R through time and to her memories of what a mother's role is supposed to be.

Right now I'm quiet and resided.  If d wants to be gone in the way she treats me, I can address our R that way too.

Apparently these past 14 years I provided d no value.  Amazing.  But recognizing where all this has been going, predictable.

I'm posting this here on WoN because I don't know what to do regarding custody.  The thought of being forced and not being a peer participant, again, makes my stomach turn and I'd rather have my independence completely.  At that point, if d ever wants to contact me again, she's welcome to do so but it will be on mutual terms and she'll need to recognize that I have almost no motivation to be interested except on the basis that I was the woman who bore her and tried my best to provide for her and parent her as long as I could which, again, apparently have had no value.  I'm OK with letting my butterfly go and seeing what happens along the line.  There are no remaining pieces of my heart to break.

Thankfully the evaluator has contacted me and suggested a meeting tomorrow.  He said he'd written XNH that the matter would have to go to court either to enforce the order or change it and offered to discuss "approaches" with me.

XNH's last e-mail to him which copied me was very smoothly written by someone who feels they are entirely in control of every action and decision happening now.  He even included the statement that I'd "refused mediation with XYZ mediator for years" and stated that he and d would get their ski trip.

This is all about XNH's supremacy and the lessons d is learning about the advantages of that.

And to d's written complaint to me last week that I'd called her "disloyal", now I can only laugh at the irony of that.

Am so disgusted with it all that I'd be happy to walk away at this point.  Relative to other Rs I have, there's virtually no mutuality to these at all.

NewWings4MeNow

[alatariel]

Vent away.  I may not have anything useful to add, but I'm listening.  And hurting for you. I can feel the hurt and frustration and the fact that you're just tired of fighting for what should just be yours, no questions asked. 

[Imogene]

I know you're in agony over this, and I think right now you should just vent in whatever way you want on this board.

Meanwhile, if I were you, I would email your ex and see if you can get a head's up about what, exactly, he wants the custody modification to look like.  The evaluator seems to thing you can reason with him, so you have to cc this email to the evaluator, because you can certainly count on the fact that your ex is trying to make you look like a completely unreasonable lunatic.  I think your ex will respond to show the evaluator that he is reasonable, and then you will know what to expect.  That will save you a lot of anxious ruminating over worst case scenarios.

Moreover, if you know what to expect, you know whether or not you need a lawyer, and to what extent.  I know that you are short on cash.  If your ex just wants the custody modifications you two had proposed before you shot back to San Diego, and that is what your daughter wants as well, I think he has a pretty good case.  You definitely want to get some legal advice through consultation, but you have to ask if it's worth depleting your resources to fight a case you are unlikely to win.  I mean, I like to do my homework, so I read the California statute on custody before I came in here and answered you.  She's 14, and she gets to decide (all things being equal), and there is no clear evidence that she has been coerced.  I'm not saying she hasn't been.  Oh, golly, do I know how these types operate.  I'm just saying, do you have the money to open a PAS case, and can you win?  If your lawyer orders a full psychological screening on your ex, do you want to have to take the screenings yourself?  Etc.   

I would not contact your daughter at all except to write her regularly--once or twice a week--to say you love her and hope she is doing well.  Anything you say to her about custody right now is potentially going to be used against you at the hearing, so avoid those topics with her.

I'm very sorry that it's come to this.  But I still contend that nothing has changed, really.  You still have the choice of what kind of relationship you want to have with your daughter in the future.  And you still get to live your own life according to your desires and values.  This is what you set out to do six months ago.  When the worst of the pain has subsided, I hope you can remember that and I hope you will move forward with those goals.  They are worthwhile, and so are you. 

[honeybearII]

Wings, I know you are angry and hurting right now, but please try to refrain from "all or nothing" thinking in this.  You are mentally drawing lines in the sand that will GUARANTEE that you will have estrangement from your daughter, and yet I don't think that is what you want at all in the long scheme of things.

If you can step away from the emotions of this and look at in a more logical light, maybe this is absolutely for the best.  It could be a win-win situation for you and your daughter, and doesn't need to spiral into a nasty and anger-charged episode that will force your d to publicly choose one side or the other. 

Right now, your d seems content to be living with her dad and has stated pretty emphatically to you that what she wants above anything else is NO MORE FIGHTING.  Not having her living under your roof doesn't mean you don't have influence and in fact might mean, in the long, GREATER input because your relationship won't be charged with all the fights, disagreements and angst that go with living with a teenage girl. 

You, on the other hand, know that she is safe and cared for and you can get on with figuring out what to do for the next 20 years of your productive life to make sure you have some kind of stability financially and emotionally.  You can move on to make your life what you kept saying you treasured - the gentle life.  Dragging all of this back into court, fighting for something that your daughter doesn't seem to cherish or even WANT, setting yourself up for more abuse from your ex is hardly figuring out how to live your life with more peace and quiet.  I have said this before and I am stating it again as emphatically as I know how.  LET IT GO.  This is not saying let your daughter go, it means let the drama die.  Period. 

Let your d stay with her father, set up a reasonable visitation schedule that SHE has some input over, and try to be more flexible with her ups and downs as she lives out the next few years until she is 18 and all of this is pretty moot.  Use these next years to find your OWN way and realize that ALL MOTHERS learn that by the time a girl is 14 years old, whatever influence we had on them is over and done with.  Your D got a lot of good things from you and please don't jeopardize all that by continuing to create so much drama and anger and fighting in her life that she comes to despise you, because as blunt as this sounds, that is where I see this headed if you continue on this court.

Sometimes the better part of something is to concede defeat.  You have tried standing up to your ex and even your d.  You have fought hard for what you see as your rights as a mother, and while I am not saying you may not be absolutely right, I see this as a time to lay down the swords, grieve if you must, and then rescue the remnants of your relationship with your d even if it has to be done from afar.  It is time to compromise, wings.  The hardest lesson I ever learned while watching my marriage dissolve was that there comes a time when we have to walk away, stop the fight, and save ourselves.
Honey

[NewWings4MeNow]

I am ready to walk away and to let it go.

After a discussion with RB, the remaining sticky wicket issue is child support and whatever XNH can/will do to ensure I have to somehow pay him.  And how where I physically live will play into that in terms of ongoing 50:50 availability.

Which puts me staying here until d is out of high school.  And discussing CS issues with the evaluator and getting answers online. 

Otherwise for me at issue is whether I'm required to have contact with d if I give up physical custody altogether and request some months of no contact as a reset, though still stay here. 

I'm not interested in continuing to be a doormat, and unless some intervention therapy is made available to d the thought is that XNH and d will continue to abuse and take advantage of me with their behaviors. 

In my home I have the right to say what behavior is and is not acceptable.  And XNH and d are making it clear that they are the only ones with Voice and opinions at this time.

So I can work with the structure of still having d visit when she wants to but only when/how it also works for me, since she's taken care of elsewhere. 

To be clear:  I'm not going to court under any circumstances, not hearings, not PAS, nothing.  Clearly, from what I've already written, d already does despise me (and I don't have anything much to say to her at this point except to ask why she's contacting me and what she wants).

I will leave this area when d graduates from high school.  And the only reason I'd stay is if XNH were going to sabotage me later with past-due CS.  If I move to the Bay Area and get a better paying job he'll be after me for CS in a heartbeat and then I won't be able to live there, so that's off the table for now.

If I haven't been clear:  I concede defeat.  Across the board.  And concede that my R with d is now *broken*.  And concede that I do not know if there is a fix or if I want to invest further at this point in her direction.

To me that means that I have to decide what kind of attitude I want to convey regarding having d in my home under any circumstances.  I'll be doing a lot more listening and 90% less talking, to protect myself, and will not be opening myself up to d as I had in the past.  So ours will be an R that continues the charade, to an extent, but won't be able to be based on the extent of emotion I'd offered to it before.

Let me be clear:  As long as I have any custody of d, as long as I receive any child support related to d and as long as I live in the area where d and XNH are living, the drama will not stop.  I could sit in a chair for the next three+ years with duct tape over my mouth and the drama still will not stop.  Let me be clear:  I am not the only person participating in the creation of drama and hurt in this triangle.

XNH has sent some language from the custody modification his lawyer started to draw up.  It includes a number of terms that were never negotiated in our meetings.  I assume that if I refuse to sign them he will have a judge overrule me.

I assume I have no power now over anything except my own person, my own voice, my own home, my own work, and whomever else I choose to allow into my life. 

The only reason now that I am here is to prevent XNH from harming me further to force me to pay child support that I don't have.  I'm not here for d.  And if she contacts me I'll ask her why I should speak with her.

My ideal is to be left alone until after the holidays, to not have any contact with d at all, and I'll be telling the evaluator this. 

There is no escape from the triangle until d is no longer a supported minor.  XNH will come after me on every level now to get/have things exactly as he wants them.

If I had little Voice before I have virtually none now, except regarding how close I choose to let d get to me.

She wrote, 'It's not all about you."  It's never been all about me.  But now it's all about her and XNH and not at all about me.  And that's an alignment I only want to steer clear of.

In the short scheme of things I don't like my daughter and don't trust her on any level.  That will take a long time to change, if it's ever going to.

Right now my issues are my own emotions, investment level toward d and protection from further harm to myself. by d and XNH.  My emotions will handle this OK, the investment level I'm inclined toward today is zero, and protection from further harm to myself is 100%. 

So really should I be around d at all at this point?  Nope.  And I'm completely OK with that.

d hasn't replied to any communication from me in a week.  Now I send one line Skype messages and will not be sending any more.

My view is that d needs a full dose of XNH for quite a while, and that they can have each other.  When/as/if things go south and she turns to me, I'll have to decide at that point if I want to be there for her or not.  d's so headstrong, however, that I do not see that happening.  She's now treating me like we've given each other up for adoption and like I'm the "birth mother", which I think is an accurate description.

I feel sorry for d for the lessons she's learning now.  But I'm not inclined to continue to try and teach her anything to counter their alignment.  Would rather just stay mute.  And I thought that four years of mute in our former town was hard.  Writing this and seeing how my life will play out still as a shadow, if I can get a stipulation that I don't have to pay child support, I'm leaving the area.

Yes, I'm hurt.  And angry.  And entitled to feel those things.  And I'd rather just be gone.  If that seems all or nothing, it is.  If I'm really chained here to prevent being bankrupted by CS payments and faced with XNH going after my father's inheritance to get CS money, it doesn't get more disgusting than that.  XNH's revenge will be complete indeed.

Yes, I really want no contact time away from d completely, but don't know if that's negotiable.  Will find out tomorrow.  And yes, I have no idea how I'll handle Thanksgiving except to say:  "What a sham" because, as of today, I don't want d in my home to ruin yet another holiday.

Am I interested in further influence over d?  Nope.  If her character is molding toward XNH in such a way, I'm not interested in much of anything having to do with d.  Sad but honest.  And if that really is my feeling I should give up custody of her completely (except for that pesky CS problem).

I feel sorry for d, but will not throw myself under the train for her.  If she and XNH have an "encounter" she'll have to handle it.

Vent?  Vent?  Truly there is no escape as long as XNH has other ways to come after me.  There is no climbing out as long as he can wield money over me.  Move on to a new life for myself, blossoming?  Are you kidding me?

Something very big has changed.  I've changed. 

In the scores of times I've been required to compromise through the years, XNH still now points to each individual moment when I didn't say "Yes".  So this isn't about compromise at all.  This is about XNH just getting his way and me saying "Yes" from now on no matter how I think or feel about anything.  This is about me remaining at the bottom of the totem pole for as long as XNH can keep me there.  This is about narcissistic abuse playing out in all its glory.  This is about a survivor who couldn't leave and was re-victimized. 

Today this is what all this means to me.

I'm open to all the descriptions of stinkin' thinkin' you can apply to my views.  Today I'm out of energy to stand any further ground.

Just read a Web post by a woman who didn't have a job and was told to go live in a shelter but still pay child support, and multiple other posts just like it.  If XNH does that to me he'll really be trying to kill me from stress and not just a broken heart.  At that point I'll just disappear.  I really should give up all custody if this is what I face.  The cruelty just doesn't stop.  So much for living to a ripe old age.

NewWings4MeNow

[CZBZ]

I am so sorry things have gotten to this point, Wings. It's a painful conclusion to years of battling back and forth with your X, never achieving a satisfactory compromise. It's a tough situation for people to find themselves in and unfortunately, it happens far too often for the good of our kids. And yes, your situation was extremely challenging though every divorce and every custody sharing is emotionally taxing.

I would suggest focusing on what you want, even if that means living in the Bay Area and paying child support. How much child support would you have to pay anyway? It would be calculated on your income so it would not be the same amount your X has been required to pay. Maybe you'll find answers to this question tomorrow. Perhaps there is a way to agree to an equitable amount since you would not be paying the majority of her expenses.

I know this is unfair considering your X's income. It does show the child however, that the non-custodial parent is supportive. There have been other mothers on the  forum who've had to pay child support when their X's were awarded custody. It's a bitter pill to swallow when the X makes six figures and 'she' is living on peanuts. Still, these women stepped up and did whatever they needed to, to keep a connection to their child. This may be one way for you to look at it--that you can show her that you love her even though right now, your relationship is on hold.

I think, like Honeybear, that your daughter is war-torn and battle-wounded---exhausted from the relentless disagreements. I also think she wants to focus on herself as teenagers do without being worried about her impact on her mother. She just wants some kind of peace. This is of course, projection on my part---imagining how I would feel were I in her shoes.

I am relieved that you will not force your daughter to testify in court. This could haunt her for the rest of her life...


Hugs,
CZ

[MoreMyself]

Just wanted to add that there's always hope to repair a relationship with a child.  My son, at age 16, sent an email to a friend that said he hated me so much he wanted to hurt me.  He actually did raise his fist to hit me once.  I perservered.  He might give up on me but I would never, ever give up on him.  I set boundaries, but mostly I was there for him even though it was clear he didn't want anything to do with me for a couple of years.  It was hard but we got through it.  He's 21 now.  He has a different outlook on things entirely.  He understands the hormonal bulldozer of adolescence that was driving him but also accepts that his behaviours were hard for everyone around him. We talk and our relationship is much improved.

Yes, there is always hope, even when we think there isn't.

[NewWings4MeNow]

CZ,

It is XNH who has asked d to testify ....

I have $0 and am making $0, so the CS amount doesn't matter.

Showing d that I'm supportive because of $?  I've spent the last three years trying to do that -- it's no new message.  If the message is that money makes the connection, then d can have XNH and NW full-time.

Yes, d's tired and wants to focus on school and her friends.  As to worry about her impact on me, she and I have no R at this point, and "worry" isn't a word I'd use at all to describe d.  She's speaking from hurt and abandonment and gives quite an impression of not giving two sh*thes about me.

I am not getting what I want, to be a mother to my daughter and witness the moments of her life.  I've been shut out of that.  XNH's influence is complete indeed.  d has been absorbed into The Collective.

Re: CS until XNH divulges the entirety of his income these past eight years the entire conversation is a joke of biblical proportions.  So yes, I'd call for a CS review but he'll lie and cheat and doctor his way through it.

If I move back to the Bay Area I wouldn't want monthly visits with d and would likely just see her a couple of times a year.

Tomorrow I have to resolve the CS issue as my father is prepared to remove my name from his accounts if there's any possibility XNH could go after all my assets or attachment to any.  My father's been right about XNH all along, and today he said, "I can smell a skunk." 

My dad said that I have no way out, that I'm being shot at from every angle and that I should just leave it all behind.  When I told him that I could still be dogged for CS payment even if XNH has full custody of d, he laughed at how broken this country's legal system is.   

You folks haven't experienced d first-hand.  She has a similar cold and cruel capability as XNH, a similar quick-tongued wit.  Thanksgiving?  I'm not inclined to make any kind of holiday this year if d is with me, and would save that for when I'm alone.  She can show up, but that doesn't mean I'm going to do anything to make it different than any other day.  If d wants Thanksgiving dinner, she can make it.

More people than just d have a right to peace.

NewWings4MeNow

[NewWings4MeNow]

More,

I'd think that if d was just a hormonal teenager.  But she's a hormonal teenager living in an N family system and residing in an N-focused area.  Thought about this today, and these facts change everything, IMV.  In truth, at this writing, hope and faith are the things I do not have regarding any near-term future I might have with d.  XNH and his family have dominated her entire life from the start, and that's become quite engrained. 

If she wants to talk to me when she's in college, or after, she's welcome to call and maybe we can have coffee.

NewWings4MeNow

[Imogene]

So your ex is actually sending you the modifications to read over.  Is he asking for child support in them?  Is he asking for full custody?

[NewWings4MeNow]

Imogene,

He said his lawyer is preparing them and he sent portions of one document.

CS:  Unknown, but since for years he threatened to go for it when I made any money, I assume this.

Full custody:  Assume not.  Assume visitation schedule.  However I'd knock that down too as I wouldn't want monthly visits but just 3x/year:  Thanksgiving, part of Christmas and one week of summer.

So if I give up full custody and terminate parental rights, but still have to pay CS, that wouldn't make sense for me financially.

Talking with my cousin tonight.  Even he, at last, is of the view that d has gone to the Dark Side and has to be quite aware of the seriousness of what she's done to me and to our R.  He's been quite understanding of my perspectives and the level of poor character and deceptiveness that's been perpetrated especially since d doesn't talk to me and hasn't had the decency to tell me what she wants herself to my face.  In his view the evaluator should require her to meet with him and not continue to rely on XNH's representations of her thoughts as he's such a known pervasive liar.  Frankly I think d likely has said those things as they're consistent with her Skype comments to me last week.  And finally, he agrees that d is now treating me like I'm dead.

My cousin said, as RB said today, that d is going to have go through something unpleasant and get knocked down at some point from treating people this way.  Whether it's her friends, at a job, or some other life situation.

He said he completely understood how I'd not want to have d for Thanksgiving (or not want to make the meal) or the holidays this year, that I'd want to have time apart without contact and that it is reasonable of me to wonder about d's trustworthiness and N-like behavior through this.

Finally, he said that nothing has happened at all to have caused this change, reiterated that I've done nothing wrong and he sees no reason whatsoever why I shouldn't have 50:50 custody of d at this time.

I told him that I think, at some point in time (years), d will call me either crying or screaming with rage.  Don't know when at all, or if.  Just a feeling I got.

XNH doesn't "ask" for anything.  He just states what terms will be.  I have no leverage anywhere at this point since he has d and her support; he'll just force the agreement whether I sign it or not.  Which will just fuel his colossal superiority.

NewWings4Menow

[Imogene]

Does he plan on showing you all the documents?  Well, I assume the lawyer HAS to, as you are your own counsel.  Why don't you just contact this attorney directly and find out what's going on?  I bet you can do that.

It's just a hunch, but I don't think he's going to go after you for child support.

[NewWings4MeNow]

I'm not in a hurry for any docs, and XNH said last week that his lawyer wouldn't be available until this week.

Hunches re: XNH doing anything right or good don't usually pan out.  He makes decisions based on his best interest or competitive advantage somewhere down the road.  And he wouldn't approach it in a straightforward fashion.  He'd say that he would forgo CS until I got a job and then I'd have to show docs etc. and it would be changed.  He'd say he would forgo CS if I would agree to never approach to modify custody again.  Etc.

With XNH a signed and filed agreement is just the beginning of re/negotiating in perpetuity.

My d.  I'm so worried for my d.  My heart is crushed.

NewWings4MeNow

[Imogene]

She'll be fine, as long as her mother doesn't walk out on her. 

Call the lawyer's office tomorrow morning and ask his clerk/intern/receptionist to send you the modification documents as soon as they are ready, as you would like to review them.  This option didn't occur to me before, but you can circumvent dealing with your ex this way, and the sooner you find out what the modification entails, the sooner you stop being scared of monsters in the dark.

[NewWings4MeNow]

Imogene,

I'll leave it to the evaluator to walk me through the options and how things will be handled next.  Am not willing to determine at this point whether or not d will be fine.

I don't know what you mean by "walk out on her," but that's effectively the reality in which we're living now:  d's walked out on me emotionally after I walked out on her physically, and XNH's having a field day puppeting it all.

Talked through all this with my cousin this evening.  Two location choices face me and both of them involve losses, so we weren't able to move the mark far off center.  Stay locally and I lose my work/cultural soul and face four more years of h*llish BS continuing.  Go back and I lose witnessing d's life (which she doesn't seem inclined toward at this point anyway).  At evening's end both our inclinations are that I should go back, and revisit an R with d at some point down the road when she's ready to have one and picks up the phone.

Either way I'll decide in the next two days, as I'm out of time and energy to stay in this sideways trajectory much longer.  Either way I don't plan to have much visitation time with d as my cousin is certain that, even if I limit it to three visits a year, XNH will find a way to change those dates and arrangements too.

NewWings4MeNow

[NewWings4MeNow]

If I stayed here and just stayed quiet with d, wouldn't she eventually be the least bit curious and want to see my home?

NewWings4MeNow

[JennyWren]

One thing I am eternally grateful for is that my XNH is so rubbish at relationships....and has his head so far up his ar$s that he was never able to create any kind of relationship at all with our ds. Otherwise....I would be right where you are. And I have imagined and thought on it enough times to completely empathise with you and your crushing pain. And Wings....it is so utterly horrible to be tormented like this. I have seen this depraved process before amongst XNHs NFOO. That is why I have feared it myself.

But, I just wanted to add to the thoughts on what the future may hold...and just suggest that if there is anything in d worthy of your love and endurance...it will work it`s way out. If there is not...then frankly you are better off out....and we all of us risk finding we have a child who grows up to be a complete alien. If she is...then she is.

However....because you clearly spent time with d as a child doing all the wonderful Mom things and bonding with her in a normal healthy way...I personally believe there is a very good chance that she will pull out of this some day. Nobody thinks she is merely a stinky hormonal teen....obviously the XN effect....and his revolting family and sidekicks will distort everything for a bit. But children do grow up. She is young...and easily lead. She is being lead by a jackass.

My XNH`s brothers and he were lead by their Nmother to believe their dad was an evil man. They were not permitted to contact him. The eldest was 21 for goodness sake. XNH was 15. There comes a time, believe me, when children question what they have been fed. And if they have been fed bullsh!t....that bullsh!t will come back to haunt the bazturd who flung it there. I know how this garbage works...because I observed it...and worked to unravel it.

You see....what the Ns forget is that they can`t isolate their hostages from normal humans. At some point in her life, someone will doubtless ask d what happened between her and you. At some point she will develop new frames of reference. XNH will lose his God-like sheen. If there is any part of d worth knowing, she will spiral in back to you. If there is not......what have you lost? A relationship with another N. (I have to add that I personally 100% do not believe she is an N)

It would be nice to think that given space, d might want to come see you of her own accord. She probably would. But XN will do all he can to make it practically impossible and emotionally suicidal. He will pull out all the stops to prevent her reforming the emotional bond you two have. Because, for all his drugs and permissive ways....he can`t compete on that one. He can`t create a normal healthy relationship. Sadly....teens are not exactly drooling for closeness with their parents....so the pull will not be as strong just yet.

I wish I could leap the clock forward. I believe the advice to look after yourself right now and so on is spot on. But it`s not an easy call with every strand of your DNA insisting you rescue d. Instinct is hard to ignore....even when it is telling you to do the impossible.

[NewWings4MeNow]

I met with the evaluator this AM.  Here's the upshot:

- Lively, direct, back-and-forth convo about various options, and extremely helpful (he was basically playing the role of my lawyer/counselor)
- He said d's been alienated from me
- He said that 50:50 stands, that I should just have been allowed to return and resume since the whole thing was a test anyway, and he couldn't believe how this whole thing has been, essentially, manufactured and escalated out of nothing
- He didn't say a peep to disagree when I uttered words like "disordered", "predatory" and "exploitative"
- He said that the next step, if I don't just sign XNH's court filing, is a hearing -- not a trial (XNH said that to scare me), and that it'll be private
- He said I should allow for the hearing and get the judge to agree to some kind of 4-day weekend regular custody, 60:40 or whatever (by then I hope to have an apartment, my nice things in there and be able to show photos of the environment I can provide for d)
- He said that d and I need ongoing contact and that I should stay in touch with her now -- that there's still a lot of heart influence on her from me and that I need to work with that and show her I'm here and "there" for her
- He understands that I have possible stress-related medical concerns and thinks they're VALID and appropriate self-care, and understands that that possible issue impacts my interest in going to court or the ability to handle XNH's likely continuing harassment of me these next four years
- He said that d's brain may be so discombobulated right now that she may not be able to process anything appropriately, but that that isn't an excuse for her "poor" behavior toward me now
- I told him I'm in touch with d's school counselor and he said that is a good move
- He said that d and I need to see him or some neutral third party for conjoint therapy on some regular basis now and for the next while
- He said that it's XNH's responsibility to tell d to stay in touch with me and encourage her to visit with me, and that court will tell him so too
- He agreed that d has been given the decision-making reins and that that's not healthy or appropriate for her to wipe me out of her life just because she says she wants to (he wasn't surprised she'd deleted the photo of us on her FB page)
- He said that at Thanksgiving, e.g., if d isn't respectful toward me, I can discipline her and/or send her back to XNH until she figures out a way to treat me with respect
- He did say that I shouldn't expect much of an R with her between the holiday times, but that ours should NOT become a "Disneyland mom" R with no acknowledgements or communication in between
- He agreed that I've been put in the "father's rights" position
- I told him that XNH believes "possession is 9/10ths" and that XNH has taken advantage of that; he could see that
- He did comment that d has a very sharp tongue, and I said that in that way she's very much like XNH in how mean she can get
- He said that I need to stay, and creatively suggested that I decide to stay until, say, April Fool's day (pun intended) -- and use these next six months to assess whether or not our R is viable and how much of it is typical teen stuff and how much is XNH iNfluenced (and he didn't discount that) -- but not tell anybody that I have my own outside timeframe on it
- He said that there is no evidence to warrant a change from 50:50 in terms of abuse, neglect or any other charge or garbage XNH throws out in court to make me appear to be mentally ill or an unfit parent.

I told him I'll do as he suggests and stay, and am already making efforts to secure an apartment.

Next I visited d's school counselor and gave her permission to talk with d's therapist and the psych evaluator.  Apparently she'd sent a slip some time ago to d to have a first meeting with her and d never showed up.  So she has an excuse to request to meet with d now and ask her, "So d, how are things going?"  I told her to expect d to tell her everything's fine, she's living with her dad and that she's glad I'm gone ....  The counselor acknowledged the morass of circumstances occurring now which are impacting d, and said she'll continue to monitor and keep me informed.  When I told her that, work-wise, it is a sacrifice for me to stay but I'm doing it, she said I was a good mom for doing so.

That's where things stand today.

I've still never received court docs from XNH, and still never received CS changes from him.

NewWings4MeNow

[daisyk9292]

Wings, I really don't have a lot to say that is useful to your very difficult situation. I can certainly understand your feelings of just wanting to walk away. I've felt that way many times in regards to my own FOO.

My parents had a nasty split when I was 15. I was the only kid left in the house. There was no issue of custody. If there had been, I'm pretty sure it would've been more about who gets STUCK with me. Both parents were so done with parenting by the time I was a teen!

My dad, cliche, had affair with 23 yr old. He stayed, but wasn't long before mom tossed him out. When I was a teen, I was obsessed with my boyfriend and friends. I didn't speak to either parent, nor did I take sides. I either really didn't care, or really couldn't face it (I'm thinking the latter)

 But eventually mom worked me over pretty good, and by the time I was 20, I was convinced that my father was pure evil and my mom an innocent victim, who was a devoted wife and mother and didn't deserve to end up working full time, supporting herself, trying keep her head above water, had a rotten liar ex husband who won't send alimony checks... while her friends are all out lunching, golfing, traveling and spending time with grand babies!!!!!!

It took me until almost 40 to see that BOTH of these people are NUTS and severely dysfunctional. Now bear with me, I'm NOT saying my mom deserved to be lied to or cheated on. My personal belief is deception of any kind is crazy making, despicable, awful behavior.  But mom is no prize either, she's extremely manipulative and controlling. Now that I see both of them for who they are, I can't believe they lasted 23 years!!

I'm not saying D will think this about YOU. I am saying that she's going to grow up, she will learn more, she will change. I believe there's a very big chance she will see things more clearly and from a different perspective than right now. I certainly hope this happens for you and for her.

Daisy

[NewWings4MeNow]

Hi daisy,

Thanks so much for sharing what you went through, how it impacted you over a long time and how your thinking about it changed.

So sorry to read of your dad's behavior, which is how XNH was acting right when we split and which I read too many times in classic MLC descriptions.  I'm not surprised that you would have focused out/elsewhere for survival, given the pain in your household.

I've no doubt that I contributed to d's views at this point, that she's refused to acknowledge any wrongs XNH has done to me through time and that the main problem lies in my not just staying "yes" to XNH to prevent hassles, arguments and tears.

Quite a paragraph, your "But eventually ...."  Hits pretty close to home -- but you already know that.

As you came to see that your folks couldn't/shouldn't have lasted that long, I came to see, too, that there was little to no reason why XNH and I should have ever been together from a moral or social position perspective.  Have to blame myself for not having chosen appropriate to more of the aspects of who I really am.  Certainly d would not see me as any kind of prize today, someone who scratched just to keep her head above water economically while XNH stood over with a mallet.

A number of people this week, daisy, have said that since d hasn't believed or trusted my perspectives, she's going to have to learn the hard way, through someone else either treating her the way XNH has treated me, or through her friends/colleagues telling her that her behavior is not acceptable.  No, I don't expect to come up smellin' like roses.  But that hasn't been my goal.  My goal has been to discuss the truth, and that's been very, very hard to come by in our R across a wide span of topics.

I've said my peace in d's direction with the purposeful goal of trying to find teachable moments about people and interactions.  Now, the quieter I am toward her on most but polite topics, the better.

The evidence shows that I've spent years defending myself from XNH's aggressions.  In a "Divorcing a P" article I read yesterday, there was a critique about using the phrase "high-conflict" as it implies that both parties are equally culpable.  And the statement was made that when dealing with a P type, whose MO is to "go on the attack", the other party lives in almost perpetual defense mode.  (Unfortunately I have the diary to support this.  Oh what the h*ll -- it'll make a good novel.)  And just by opening their mouth to do so they're perceived as part of the dance just because they've engaged, which is one way to go at trying to not lose further ground.  Or, as some here would say, attempting to hold fast over skirmishes and still lose the war ....

Your insights really help. 

Thanks,

NewWings4MeNow

[NewWings4MeNow]

OK, the Realtor who likes me just sent me an app for the townhouse I want to rent, and wrote in e-mail that he does not want my bank statements or my credit card bills -- he just wants a "description of my income situation".  I'd like to see that as a major gift:  A "stated income" rental ...?

And he said that his furnished temporary place (same price/day as my hotel) will be available this weekend for several weeks to tide me over Thanksgiving.

(Actually he said last weekend that he has some big homes for sale in my former town that need large carpets and I offered to rent out the palace-sized oriental I just inherited from my family ....)

NewWings4MeNow

[RB22]

Wings,

Sounds like the psych evaluator has it right.  And has your X's number, too.  I like the plan he gave you for seeing if the relationship can be salvaged with your D.  I think it can... an itty bitty bit at a time.    The evaluator sounds like a wise man.

As far as renting the carpet goes... I supplement my meager income with some very creative barter situations.... It drives my X nuts.... but more importantly... it makes MY LIFE... more enjoyable... for me and the kids.  the side benefit is it drives him nuts.  LOL.

I hope your rental agent and you work a few more deals that help ease your rent burden.

With love and hugs,

RB

[NewWings4MeNow]

BTW, RB, we also discussed XNH's last "superior" e-mail to the evaluator basically blowing him off in favor of a judge and hearing.  The evaluator *also* noticed that the tone of that e-mail was all-controlling and dismissive.

I think he's a wise and humane man.  Still.  And even moreso than before.  Because he said that his comments would be the same even if XNH had been in the room too.

Forgot to say above that he does see that d's treating me like I'm dead.  Her recent FB photos still show her wearing the gold locket I gave her.  If she takes that off we're in very deep trouble.

I like supplementing, and barter.  Yes, it would be great if we could work some deals.  Frankly I was shocked at his e-mail not requiring proof. 

Naturally my cousin's now read me the riot act about considering a townhouse (in medium rent range) for which I have no $ to pay the rent ongoing as of today.  I told him that, for that attitude, he should say also that I should leave my hotel tonight and go live in my car since he feels that the expense of $79/night is too high.  Which is rock-bottom for San Diego.  (And he lives in downtown Chicago ....)  Wish I hadn't had to take his family's $ loan if he's now going to monitor my finances, and I told him that and that I'll pay him back ASAP to cut that tether.  Ggrr ....

I sent d a loving/inquiring Skype message earlier and just called her.  As it rang she actually Skyped me back asking if we can talk tomorrow, saying her homework load is huge.  Well, it's a start.

If 90% of this fiasco has actually been XNH-generated, and if he backs off from a court filing (think about it:  the judge is going to unload all over him for the contempt of court slight itself), that's a really volatile and manipulative mind ....  And what could his next/worse act possibly be to top this (except violence)?  Boggled.

Hugs back,

NewWings4MeNow

[nutella]

Which is rock-bottom for San Diego.  (And he lives in downtown Chicago ....)  Wish I hadn't had to take his family's $ loan if he's now going to monitor my finances, and I told him that and that I'll pay him back ASAP to cut that tether.  Ggrr ....

I sent d a loving/inquiring Skype message earlier and just called her.  As it rang she actually Skyped me back asking if we can talk tomorrow, saying her homework load is huge.  Well, it's a start.

If 90% of this fiasco has actually been XNH-generated, and if he backs off from a court filing (think about it:  the judge is going to unload all over him for the contempt of court slight itself), that's a really volatile and manipulative mind ....  And what could his next/worse act possibly be to top this (except violence)?  Boggled.

$79 in Chicago! is shite. Did he move?

  My cousin's daughter was given up for adoption by her biological father  after a bad divorce.  She has been in contact with him for awhile, recently.  She sought him out.  She let's her daughter stay with him for extended stays, but won't let her mother, or primary caregiver and step-dad do the same.  It has taken years.

   This "D" has reconnected with her father and is now in a bitter dispute with her mother.  "He" hardly contacted her (it was a bad ordeal), and my cousin (the natural mother) and step-dad, who have supplied most of the money, are now rejected.   My grandparents watched this child while my cousin sought a new husband and life.  They have both recently died now within months of each other. 

   I remember the "biological" father of this girl.  He was a little immature at the time (Young), but he was nice.  He was kind.  And this second cousin is now a straight up girl with children.  She is hardwired nice and empathetic. 

   Everyone over there is saying, "Your mother's and step-dad's money? Don't you 'appreciate' it"?   

Evidently it wears off.  At least when you are young. 

[honeybearII]

Naturally my cousin's now read me the riot act about considering a townhouse (in medium rent range) for which I have no $ to pay the rent ongoing as of today.  I told him that, for that attitude, he should say also that I should leave my hotel tonight and go live in my car since he feels that the expense of $79/night is too high.  Which is rock-bottom for San Diego.  (And he lives in downtown Chicago ....)  Wish I hadn't had to take his family's $ loan if he's now going to monitor my finances, and I told him that and that I'll pay him back ASAP to cut that tether.  Ggrr ....

Maybe he has a point, Wings.  Why get into another rental situation right away before you find work?  And rent at somewhere around $2000 a month seems incredibly high.  Can't you find something a lot less money maybe in a part of town that you haven't considered before?  If you have no job, no income and are living right now on borrowed money, why get into a lease? 

Just throwing it out there.
Honey