How to Move On After Losing Custody

[nutella]

NewWings,
 
   You are right that it will not probably go to court if you have a mediator.  The court will take most, if not all, of the mediator's recommendations.  Do not piss off the mediator, not that you are.  Also be careful to not bring up tooo much crap, mediators can see that as vindictive. 

  In my case, the exN went batshit on a custody evaluator, I said nothing.  It went in my favor, meaning joint custody and a weeks notice for visitation blah blah.  Leak things out slowly and calmly.  Make it all about your daughter, as it seems you have. 

  Has the mediator made recommendations?   The reason I ask is that may be one reason your demon does not want to go to court and prefers to try and manipulate the mediator.  If I recall, your D is still pretty young.  The burning man pictures were a good idea.  I am sorry, but that is no place for a minor imo, regardless.  Even though those photos and the emails are "hearsay" in court, with the mediator you can get away with it.  Just make sure you don't come off as stalking or spying.  It's a fine line to balance: concern about D, and obsessive behavior.  Remember, NO ONE understands being in an N relationship and all of the BS that is now being played out. 

With your D, it is good you are going to counseling together.  Though, be aware of this.  Counseling is "sacred",  but it will not be for you.  Your D does not have the maturity, nor does she have the ability to withstand prying and sophisticated interrogations from her N dad.  Your sessions will be leaked by her.  Expect it, and don't be angry, just be careful.  The fact that you and your D are seeking counseling is a two edged sword, depending on the mediator and the court.  It can go either way.  Make sure you portray it as you trying to help D, not as trying to "repair" damage as much as possible.  At least until things are finalized. 

  The best thing, and what the courts are looking for from everyone except you and your N, is what is best for your D.  It should be that a relationship is paramount. 

Also, be careful about telling other "enemies" what your D has said.  If there is one thing I have learned.... when I am with my D, it is sacred:  I am like a priest in a confessional. 

Hang in there,

Nutt

   

[RB22]

be careful about telling other "enemies" what your D has said.  If there is one thing I have learned.... when I am with my D, it is sacred:  I am like a priest in a confessional. 

-nutella

This is SO TRUE.  My kids have told me I know them better than X, I take the time to listen to them.  Etc..  What they do not say is that the one time they got to talk to X, he TOLD NW... and whatever he told NW... was used to control D.  They used lines like " if you don't want me to tell XXXX about your secret-you'll do _______ ."   

I refuse (no matter how tempting) to do this to my kid, Its emotional blackmail. I can't think of anyother way to describe the feeling that your innermost secrets will be exploited to gain control from someone the kid should be able to trust- their parent!!!  The kid feels so alone and if you confront the other parent, they will tell you " I never would do that, but I wanted her to do____ and the only way to get her to listen is to threaten to expose her secret".   Sick sick mind.... does this to kids.

[JennyWren]

Yuck...but that is just an excellent example of how Ns view other people`s emotions...as weapons to control them.

They can`t get a relationship any other way than by manipulation.

[NewWings4MeNow]

Hi nutt,

To clarify the participants:

We're meeting with the psych evaluator, the same guy who determined 50:50 eight years ago, same guy with whom I met in November and he told me that XNPH is just plain wrong, same guy with whom XNPH refused to meet back then, same guy to whom I sent the pic of XNPH at Burning Man (he went there with XBIL and other people I didn't know, almost like a VW bus road trip ....).

The "mediator" was the women XNPH had dragged me in to see for five years, until she lied to him to get him off my back and not force meetings any more.  It was at that point that I turned to the psych evaluator, until XNPH blew by him and aligned with his lawyer instead. 

Now XNPH is circling back around to the psych evaluator ... who, so far, has been in my court pretty consistently.

Yes, the evaluator recommended that I retake 50:50 custody of d (thus the no-child-exchange stand-off at the XNPH-OK-Corral in November), he recommended that I stay in San Diego until April as a test (which seems moot now unless XNPH or d really flip out), he recommended that d needs therapy, and he tried to assist me when it was clear that XNPH wanted to go to court.  I've now seen this guy spar with XNPH over 3 hours of sessions, and he hasn't taken any sh8ythe and has been very clear with XNPH about his and the court's expectations -- which XNPH later blew by because there were no immediate consequences.

Last evening I commented to XNPH that the evaluator deserves a medal for all the &#*@))@ e-mail he's had to receive.

I learned some years ago that anything recorded, admissible or not, could be presented to a psych professional and, by then, cat's out of the bag -- which is why I e-mailed the photo (and I have another one).  In my e-mail to him I wrote, "I just found xyz", which could have meant that it had been given to me ....  I'm familiar with stalking laws, and they require x # of interactions in a time period; snagging juicy stuff once or twice flies below the radar.  And XNPH would have to install spyware on my laptop or my IP address to track my keystrokes into his photo account.  (Actually I'd expect he'd have this installed on d's laptop and phone, and never tell a soul.)  I could have been gathering data like this for eight years (discussed, through time, entrapment concerns), but chose to focus elsewhere.

Since d's made it known for quite a while that she's lied to me, that she's shared my info (+ Skype messages + e-mail messages) with XNPH, and since we've already attended conjoint therapy together last summer, I'm familiar with the process and will continue to be wary of pitfalls.

It's been my view all along that a R between d and me is paramount, however it needs to be crafted.  Between her behavior toward me last spring and her behavior over Christmas I felt strongly that she could use therapy on her own alone, but starting with me together is a good first step and I was relieved that she agreed immediately, during our airport talk last week, to participate. 

Well, therapy is to help d and to try to repair damage.  As d's views of me were not stated by her for a long time and though she had opportunities to do so, we've lost time which could have been better used communicating more and with new structure and rules.  Would'a, could'a, should'a.

I felt it was important to write XNPH and the evaluator about d's issues and deteriorated standards, as (was it?) Julia said above, as they represent trends in a trajectory that could go south since she's just started ninth grade.  Yes, I realize that it was a risk, and I thought about XNPH giving it to d to read, but had she done so I think she would have contacted me earlier this past week and blasted me in some fashion, but she didn't. 

If I speak with the evaluator privately, I'll tell him that I still have the flexibility to return to San Diego to parent d if the bottom drops out. 

Given all the ways that XNPH has sabotaged and tried to destroy my R with d these past months, there is no way that I will accept a custody modification under new terms as a permanent arrangement for the next 3.5 years.  I'll go to court instead.

To RB's comments about secrets, when d was just 6 and we were just separated, she told me that XNPH had told her to keep secrets which was a serious red flag no-no.  Through the years I realize there have been LOTS of secrets, kept from me.  I also realize that I was living in fear of d telling XNPH about just how poor I was during the worst of it, and I encouraged her to not speak about it so I was guilty in my own way due to my own shame.

I can definitely hear XNPH use, "The only way to get her to listen was to threaten to expose her secret."  He's had major secrets in his life which he's protected, so would assume others would find such exposure also threatening.  He's threatened me in so many ways these past years that I'd assume this is his MO on any topic on which he's challenged.  (Can just hear it now:  "If you don't go to XYZ college, I'm not paying for it."  Sounds a bit like his, "I don't care about [swimming lessons, riding lessons, whatever was not his interest area] so I'm not paying for it.")

When d and I were at the airport gate talking, we both sat on the floor.  And out popped that same dynamic that had always worked when she was a girl:  Sitting quietly on the floor in her room, down and at peer/eye level, talking just as people.  Those were the moments when she most consistently shared what was in her heart and soul.  And she did it again at the airport.  I have to post a reminder sign:  "Use the Floor". 

Now, OTOH, I spoke with d once this past Tuesday for :15, and she's proceeded, again, to ignore my pings all week.  There will be plenty of fodder for our therapy session on Tuesday.

Thanks, RB and Jenny, for your comments.

NewWings4MeNow

PS:  I realize this discussion has hit Page 10, so if it needs to be moved to a different area, that's OK.

[NewWings4MeNow]

Spoke yesterday w/d and had a good conversation.

She will visit me next weekend.

In the meantime, my father's MD confirmed for me today that he's dying of cancer and has 3-6 months without complications.  I spoke with my dad today, who was crying and said he's incompetent, so now I'll have to return to NY in the next week or so to see to his hospice care and affairs.  My life, body, mind and heart have been torn into three parts for months:  Here, San Diego and New York, and I can't do all justice as one person.  Figuring out the logistics of moving temporarily to NY so my dad doesn't have to die alone, but I don't know if that's the best course of action either. 

Still at that eight-way intersection, part of me wishing I'd never bothered to leave San Diego for all that it's wrought since.

NewWings4MeNow

[Rosemary]

So Sorry to hear of your Dad Wings ,.makes life more complicated still for you too .
Are you the only person to do this or have you other relatives to help ?

glad to see your D is keeping in touch   

[RB22]

NewWings,

I am sorry to read about your dad's prognosis. 

Will you go to NY before the weekend with D?   

Seems like the Universe is conspiring to get you out of CA.  I suggest taking things one day at a time... and not thinking to far down the road if you can.  I know much easier said than done.  I wouldn't mention to much about leaving for NY to D, well at least until you have more information.  A lot can be done from a distance, so you might not need to be in NY for the next 3+ months.  I hope for your relationship with D's sake that is the case....running to NY and staying there I would be afraid she would take that as abandoning her again.  The relationship is still in the nurture stage, I would hate to see you and she work hard at making it work and to have something come in and pull you from her.  Which would probably be how she sees it.

Caution when making steps in a different direction....till you can't be cautious anymore.

Hugs,

RB

[NewWings4MeNow]

Rosemary,

Thank you.  No, there are no other relatives to help him in New York.  A friend of his has taken him to appointments and the hospital recently, a 70 year old man who told me by phone tonight (my first conversation with him ever) that he's making himself my father's decision-maker and other inappropriate comments which create a reason for me to get back there ASAP.

RB,

I'll go to NY the Tuesday after my weekend with d, for that week, and will make arrangements for his hospice care, meet with lawyers, bankers, doctors again etc. and decide how much I'll need to be there.

I see what you're saying about not staying there so I can tend to my R with d, but if I were my dad I wouldn't want to die alone and so I'm considering staying there for a few months but don't know what that would look like logistically at this point. 

Kids everywhere deal with their parents going to see to ailing parents, and understand the whys and wherefors.  I'll first see what's needed before I speak with d about any specific plans.  Today I confirmed that the hospital, my dad's doctors, my dad and his friend haven't been communicating his situation with me, and that's not good.  Partly it's because his condition is terminal and there's not much urgency any more except to make him comfortable.

Had an interesting talk today with both my cousins about any karmic reasons for why my life has been on hold since September, and whether a current/future path is being laid for me now that I still don't know the reason for or how I should deal with it.  Fact is that, unless I'm in tech, I won't be earning a salary here that allows me to afford to live to any level of enjoyment.  If I were to go to NY I might be able to get help or exposure for my fashion brand ....  To those who've said take care of me first, this is my thought process toward that as, if I wait three more years for d as she spreads her wings, my stability will have deteriorated yet further.

In my dealings with my father, if I'm not there he relies on others.  If I'm not there he doesn't communicate.  If I'm not there he doesn't see me as a valuable resource.  If I'm not there I have no idea what decisions he's making.  And today he told me he's not competent to see to his own affairs, and he's right.  Bills need paying, appointments need to be kept, his estate planning needs to be finalized, his comfort needs to be seen to better than it has been.  And it's all my job.

Sad day, tiring day, an expected day.  And I've been grateful to have the support of family.

I had a call last night with a friend of my father's who's been driving him to hospital and MD appointments lately.  He was gruff, stated unilaterally that he was taking on the job of decision-maker for my father, and when I informed him that I hold power of attorney and medical proxy, and that he's not previously communicated with me and that it's appropriate for MD's prognoses to be communicated first to family members (as they all have my contact info), we had *words* and he suggested some kind of adversarial legal R.  He said he'd be showing up to take my dad to the hospital even if his assisted living place told him not to.  It was an uneasy conversation and he spoke down to me.  He is 70ish.  What concerned me, partly, was that he said he'd known my dad for "40 or 50 years", yet I'd never heard his name until my dad moved into his apartment 13 years ago.  He instructed me as to what to say to him, the only answers that he would accept and, strangely, at the end of the call he said, "I love you" -- a man I've never met.  My father has now spoken of leaving him money in his will, an amount not commensurate with what someone earns who provides medical assistance for a living.  I need to go to New York.  This guy showed me a  good example of power and control exerted via physical proximity.

NewWings4MeNow

[alatariel]

Oh, Wings, I'm sorry to hear about your dad. 

[Rosemary]

Wings i know what a lot of work it takes and emotions to do  this daughters duty ,having done the same for my father .

It takes a lot of time to find the right place for them to stay too .For both you and he to be comfortable with the hostel

and you will have a lot to sort out with banks and solicitors and the house /flat belongings etc .I had to do all that too .

you will have to stay in NY for a while if he has no other relatives to help out .

This has come at a time when you were sorting your relationship out with D ,but she is of an age to understand Why you must go there as hes dying and needs your help .

Yes it could be Karma  working for you ,it will certainly take your mind off of a lot of other worries .you wont have much time to think about yourself .

you say about links to fashion well NY is your fashion capitol i believe so thats good too .
thinking of you wings   

[Legs]

I have a hard time anymore believing things happen for a reason...I mean a GOOD reason, but maybe this is one of those things. It seems like you have always talked with great affection about that part of the country. Maybe that's where you need to be and this is the way to get you there.

I am sorry you have the added worry and responsibility of caring for your Father, because frankly, he sounds like a nasty old man, but you are doing what you must and that will be a good thing perhaps to carry through life with you. Plus maybe it will occupy your thoughts and let you practice some of those kickass Wing's skills.

I hope you can stay strong and well and that this all works out for the best for you.


Legs

[NewWings4MeNow]

Hi, and thanks for your kind thoughts and support.

I saw my father today.  He has a huge and disfiguring tumor on his cheek.  I took him to the last doctor who said it's inoperable and told us the progression of what's to come.  My dad said he's known for some weeks.

Tomorrow hospice folks come and I'll speak with his banker and will arrange for a lawyer meeting. 

My dad's exhausted, but was told by the ENT doc to not hole up in his room, to put a bandage on it and go on about his life with other people. 

His facility and all the people involved have told his friend that he has no place making legal or medical decisions for my father. 

We'll have The Talks between now and Friday, when I'll return to the Bay Area.

....

Had Skype negotiations yesterday w/XNPH and the evaluator.  Net is that we'll continue to share custody, that I have the option to return to San Diego to do so, that he'll pay for travel and camps, and it was made very clear to him that I'll readily go to court rather than relive the past four months and the evaluator made several remarks about what XNPH's behavior had been.  I was aggressive -- when XNPH was being an azz, I called him so.  When he was BSing everybody (which was constant), I said so.  It felt GREAT.  And at the end I refused to pay half for the meeting, and left XNPH holding the bag because he'd refused to meet in November and this is just more of his financial abuse.  His N/Pness was all over his conversation from when we began talking, including his demeaning of my thoughts, choices and information.  He accused me of insulting him and I almost said he deserves years of insults without me batting an eyelash.  The evaluator is writing up the agreement and XNPH's lawyer will finalize it.  The evaluator said that, even as of January 2012, court are favoring ever more teens making their own custody decisions, and he was fine with me saying d could go back and forth between houses.  XNPH tried to include some slick inequities (e.g. stating that d could refuse to visit me at any time -- so I said fine, then d can request to visit me at any time she's with you and you'll pay for it.  Of course XNPH said he wouldn't pay for it .... ).  I caught him on them and just said, "If you're going to insist on that, then no deal and I'll see you in court," and, "If that's in the document I won't sign it.  PERIOD."  It's an amazing thing how bold someone can be when they're no longer afraid and no longer afraid of loss.

I'm convinced that one person, or several people, got to XNPH and told him he'll lose in court.  It was amazing to watch his changes in temperament through the two-hour conversation, from hugely combative to accommodating and to telling me, repeatedly, just what a generous man he is.  E.g. he stated that he'll pay for d's trips to see me only in CA until I'm full-time employed.  I told him I've been full-time employed for 2.5 years.  Then he named the figure of $100K and I told him fat chance, that I've been living at below poverty for all that time.  He said not a word in response -- but then demanded that I pay $175 for half of the meeting expense, to which I laughed heartily and said, "Not on your life." 

d and I have our therapy appointment in an hour. 

....

What an interesting start to 2012.  I feel that the cosmos is speaking to me and I'm trying to listen wherever I can.

NewWings4MeNow

[Rosemary]

Well Done Wings a triumph at last and it felt  sooooo sweeetttt for you after all the nasty demands .

Im glad you got the strength to oppose him and win your rights  without backing down  .He must be terrified of the courts ,and what you have on him  Good on you      

[NewWings4MeNow]

Ah, Rosemary, it's for triumphs like this that I've journaled my journey here on WoN, to see if I could survive it and if any truth other than darkness would be believed and ultimately supported.

Have thought/talked a lot these past coupla days about the universe presenting itself. 

This evening, talking w/my flight purser cousin, he told me that he's about to discontinue his parents' buddy passes on his airline, but that they said he has the right to assign them to anyone he wants -- and he said he's assigning them to me AND to d.  They're unlimited and it means we can fly to each other, together, however, on his airline's system basically for the cost of tax.  I burst into tears (of course) with joy.  Was soooooo appreciative of his generosity and, as a gal at my hotel said this evening, of his "lifting us up" and of my readiness to receive whatever the heavens want to throw at me or throw to me.

Rosemary, my strength was in being rock-hard in my resolve.  And used a similar approach in my therapy appointment call with d today -- letting her know what my expectations are in a parent-teen R, finding out what hers are, and getting help to find a meeting point.  D has agreed to speak with me 3-4x/week for 20 minutes at a time (HER proposal, which I felt was substantial).  And we'll have another session in two weeks where we'll tell the therapist whether or not d kept her agreement and how things worked between us.  I didn't back down on discussing character, integrity, keeping to commitments and having my time respected.  D's argument that "We're teenagers -- it's what we do" I met with, "In my (old) school Rs were decided between the involved parties, not as a function of what other people do or how other families operate."  I expressed that I view our R as parent-teen, not as peer-teen, and that I'm not going to give d free reign and that she's not an adult.  The therapist, who hasn't spoken with d in a long time, liked my comments and treated them as something new past the past acrimony; there was no point in my telling her that the me I showed today was the me that's always been but it's been shrouded to fend off endless abuse.  I was raised well as a teen and know full well how to raise a d properly, and haven't had an opportunity to do so in a long time.  So now it's my/our time, recreating something new that we together own and nobody else.  d has also agreed to have voice calls, not just texting or Skype, to reinforce the special intimate nature of a mother-d R.  All in all it went OK, so now we'll see how things work.

Relieved and exhausted and grateful,

NewWings4MeNow

[JennyWren]

  Wings. Terrified of pinging this thread out of it`s ten page existence. So just  and  .

[Rosemary]

Wonderful news from your cousin giving you the airpasses  so you can meet up with D ,what a  godsend   

good news also that D is going to contact you regularly and also talk skype ,it seems things are going your way for once ,thats a nice change isnt it after all the stress you have had to sort out  Well Done        

[Legs]

Lovely, lovely, generous and happy news! Cheers to your gay flight attendant cousin...I always LOVE it when I get one in my cabin....stand up comedy routines PLUS Bloody Marys.....what more could a girl ASK for!

Flying the free and friendly skies in perpetuity!!!

ZOUNDS!



Kudos to you~~~~~
Legs

[RB22]

(((((Wings))))))

AWESOME job there lady.

More hugs,

RB

[NewWings4MeNow]

Thanks, thanks, thanks.

I shipped from NY three large boxes of my father's paperwork.  An entire other life to now manage.

Weekend w/d here.  Going well, like the old days.

I'm gonna seek out some spiritual counseling to figure out geography of my three separate lives' needs.

Only thing that matters to me is raising d correctly, as it's clear she needs me and I need to be there for her.

NewWings4MeNow

[CZBZ]

Good luck, Wings! I hope you and your daughter can find common ground from this moment forward and work towards the loving relationships mothers hope to have with daughters.

This thread is now locked. You can of course, continue the conversation on a new thread. 


Hugs,
CZ