How to Move On After Losing Custody

[NewWings4MeNow]

Honey,

Since I was just refused rental of the townhouse for lack of sufficient income-to-expense ratio, your comments aren't unexpected. 

My post was mostly reviewing what I'd found and yes, revisiting past wrongs, though yes, I know full well that whose who get screwed, get screwed and all that matters is, "What are you doing now/lately?"

I have no expectations regarding marital support, which is a separate topic from house proceeds since a person would usually be expected to go on and buy/get another place to live and that money would have gone to the down payment at the level of home we'd owned together.  Nobody ever told me that I didn't deserve support because I'd gotten house proceeds or because we split an investment account ....  XNPH's supposed lack of income was the only measure, plus the fear I felt because they said since I had an MBA I had to go to work (though it's 25 years old), and I was told that I could mention but not highlight having had Eppstein-Barr virus as a work-limiting issue as that would show I couldn't care for d ... which is effectively what has happened anyway because I'm now in an effectively equivalent exhausted state almost to disability level which I feel is much more physical than depressive.  (And to which you'd likely ask, "Well, then if that's the case why did you return and what makes you think you can care for d?" and to which I'd answer, "Because I've managed thus far and found a way.  Maybe it's too survivalist a way for her at this point, with too much struggle.")

If the subject of work and money goes back to what's earnable per hour, then I shouldn't be here if wages don't begin to add up to paying rent in the area I'd need to live to be available to d -- same problem I faced before I left. 

I'll have to make a decision, stop the go-round and put a stake in the ground, but this morning I was encouraged to file the contempt charge Monday morning, get going whatever court process this will require and stick around at least long enough to see that through.  It's kind of a must now considering that I'm legally liable for d though I'm being prevented from having access to her and, as it was said, "XNPH is enabling her behavior." 

In the woulda/coulda/shoulda category, I should never have given up my apartment.

Honey, that locomotive slammed into me a long time ago.  What's left of me is just blood and guts on the tracks.

NewWings4MeNow

[Imogene]

If you file contempt charges, I predict that your ex's lawyer will file the custody modification papers, and NewWings--you don't want your daughter on the stand, private hearing or not.  It will ruin your relationship with her.  You think things are bad now?  They can get far, far worse.  Stop fighting.  STOP FIGHTING. 

[NewWings4MeNow]

Actually I do want d on the stand, and the evaluator completely agrees.  There are consequences for behaviors, and she and XNPH have asked for it (per his e-mail) and are apparently prepared.  They've both anticipated that I'll do nothing, and I am, in fact at this point, prepared to see this thing through.  I'm done cowering from a position of fear.

Refuse to not acknowledge that facts are facts.  That violations have not occurred.

I just don't agree with a position that doing nothing is my default option, no matter the topic, and that if I take any action to protect myself it's labeled as "fighting" yet XNPH's simply taking d and defying a filed court order, the consequence of which is actually a felony, is somehow not "fighting" behavior and left to escalate (which his behavior has now) with impunity.

I don't agree that my R with my d can get worse, taking now as a snapshot in time. 

I don't agree that it's OK for my R with my d to be nonexistent with the flip of a switch and for nothing to be done about it.

I don't agree with a position that XNPH's and d's behaviors are somehow Normal, while mine, as her mother and person who's raised her for 14 years, is somehow, now, Not.

Something about this is really twisted.

I do understand that my R with my d may be over for now, and I am fully prepared to walk away for now.  But not before I've gone on record.  On record, over what has occurred that's just plain wrong.

NewWings4MeNow

[Freezer Burned]

. . . it turns out there were all KINDS of things I could have filed at the D to secure both marital and child support, which no attorney or settlement guy ever told me about. 

. . .  I think it's just plain WRONG to summarily dismiss a mother from a child's life under these circumstances, and have nothing done to stop it and nobody go to bat to address behavior that will harm for a long time.

Looks like you are also victim of the whole "Boy's Club". Maybe you can find a Mother's Rights group or something similar to help.

[Julia]

I have stayed off of this thread because I was confused.  Over the summer and fall, I seriously believed/thought that you were ready to make your own life 1) away from XN and So Cal completely and forever, 2) getting away from D who was abusing you nearly to the point of mental breakdown,  3) last chance to get a job and support yourself since your father was continually ready to disown you and was abusive, probably just using you. 4) to survive and make a stable (however humble) life that d could come to visit when she got good and ready. Totally understand that in your extreme situation, the extremes are more so, the pendulum swings that much farther. It is a sad situation you are in, but it has been a long time coming.  The only way past your "brick wall" is to turn around and walk the other direction.

So, although you have been through some additional difficulties this Fall, emotionally being sucked back into the old fights...... to me it just serves as reinforcement of the rather unpleasant truth you accepted / welcomed last summer....... You need to leave d with XN and go make your own life while you can. I did not agree with you that San Fran was the best place to make your jump, but obviously respect your right to make your own choice.

What concerns me is that you seem to not be willing to let go of the fight with XN and D. Not even to pull open your own parachute and try to land somewhere safely rather than cling to him and D in free-fall while they try to kick you off. I see that yours is a very shabby parachute, and you are not even sure it WILL open....... but you do not have another choice. No amount of obsessive thinking is going to make this go away, rather it just gets you in deeper. You can make a new life: one that D, who naturally desires stability rather than the hamster wheel mental/ physical breakdown you find yourself in, will be willing and eager to visit.

 What I wish you would do: Go to wherever in the USA you think you can feel more comfortable socially as an older woman who is not a high paid executive (not Cal or NYC) and get some job. I am not talking about a terrific job near the top of the social pyramid.  I am not talking about something competitive that fits your talents and interests. I am talking about doing whatever you can get, dumbing down your resume to get something at a call center, for example, and then slowly rising to management level because you are an intelligent woman. Taking a home health care job if that is all you can get. Doing your other things (t-shirts, consulting), on the side, making healthy friends with whom you talk about something other than XN and Ds betrayal of you. Living again, being humble in the extreme, and thanking God that you never have to feel this horrible and desperate again.

 I absolutely believe that 6-12 months of zero contact with them would do all of you a world of good. 6-12 months of not physically not speaking to them, 6-12 months of not thinking about them constantly, not blaming them constantly, not being stuck where you have been stuck for years . EVEN if they are to blame IN PART for this mess you are in. In Part.... I will leave it at that, Wings.

You need to completely reset your r/s with your D. You need to stop blaming her, she owes you absolutely nothing. She will very likely come back when you are healthy. She will very likely NEED a place to go to when she is 16 or 18 (like Nutts D did). It is your responsibility and privilege to be that healthy, financially independent place she can visit when she is ready. So please humble yourself for the time being and take a job. Scrub toilets, if that is the first job you find. Live in your car and save $. Do whatever you have to do. Move somewhere where there are fewer Ns and a humble job will allow you to survive, in your car if need be. Then get a slightly better but still humble job 3 months later, moving into a small apt with your saved $ . Go and live in your cousins garage with a space heater for a year and work a humble job, saving $ for a place. Whatever works. Reset your life, face your worst demons (living in car) and survive.  You can get past this, but you can not walk over XN. That brick wall is insurmountable, your only remaining choice is to walk away. Your CS will disappear as Honey describes, so please stop fantasizing about a lifestyle you can no longer afford and live XN-free, at last, in the lifestyle you can make for yourself.

Julia
 

[NewWings4MeNow]

Julia,

Thanks for chiming in.  Confused?  I've never been more confused in my entire life.  Never.  Ever.  And I completely get how you'd be so considering what I'd planned and intended for the change.  I feel like I've been in a sling shot.

While I understand all you are saying, and I'm not "fighting" you on this, I have to reiterate that the psych evaluator, d's therapist and her school counselor have ALL told me to stay around for d's sake, to wait this out.  And all have told me that zero contact is the opposite of what will be good for my R with d.  I broached this idea with the evaluator, who said that even three months will be too long -- that the time for me to try and connect with her is right now and ongoing.  The evaluator doesn't agree that d owes me nothing; he's been very clear that d owes me respect and communication.

Which I can also do if I file nothing in court and if XNH forces the modification. 

It's 3.5 years.  And then I'll be free to live where I want/where I can without having to get mired in this any more. 

So what really matters now is that I get any roof over my head and take any toilet scrubbing job or whatever to make any $s come in from anywhere. 

I'm not approaching this from a position of needing to prove myself to d.  She's seen me walk on coals and burn in h*ll to be able to support her.  She never went without food, heat, lights, clothing, personal items or school supplies or a welcoming home for friends she never invited.  It didn't take more than a month in Silicon Valley for me to see that just going there would be no easy fix. 

As to humility, I guess I don't express myself well enough on this forum for that understanding to get through.  I know full well that I'm effectively homeless now, that my personal possessions, all except for a small suitcase in my hotel room, are all in my car.  I'm living off cold cans of soup, bagel sandwiches and fruit in my room to stretch the money and washing clothes in the tub.  Wearing broken glasses and carrying around a fake purse with a broken handle.

Not clinging to XNPH and d.  Working on just setting up shop somehow in the area so that, if/when that day or moment comes when d turns back toward me, if she's going to before she graduates, she will know that I stayed close by.  Even if she doesn't talk to me for a while.

If setting up shop ANYwhere is impossible because I don't have the demanded income level then I'm completely hosed and will have to leave.  I know this.  But I've been here just a week and am not done trying.

This isn't about child support, which I know will go away.  This is about physical proximity and availability to d.  Even if I'm quietly going about my business focusing on anything else.

d may be drop-kicking me, but I've made a decision to not drop-kick her.  Not yet.

Fantasizing?  If you need to call it that, what can I say?  To me, I'm just trying to keep standing up while being beaten down.  Fantasizing was leaving, which has set all this in motion.

Humble?  Believe me, I realize that folks around me have an idea of what my version of "hitting bottom" is supposed to be.  And that I, somehow, deserve it.

NewWings4MeNow

[JennyWren]

Some quick thoughts.....hope you don`t mind....and hope I don`t add to confusion and personal hell.

On paper...it sounds very sensible to duck out and regroup. I agree. On paper, we know you can never win...or even gain an inch fighting XN. And he revels in the torment. Like the very devil. On paper we want to airlift you out, get you a new and fulfilling life....and have d gravitate to you in time.

But here`s the thing...every heartstring is tuned to your d who you raised as a little girl and who you now see alienated from you. Leaving for a bit did not let you detach because the worry still consumed you over d....only you were now far away and feeling even more helpless.

If you could move away and detach that would cut off this horrible fight with XN. But I don`t see how you do that. You love d, and every fibre of your being wants to do everything you possibly can.

d is not to blame for any of this. I agree with that. And I have repeated many times that I think she is in an unenviable place. You want to be there for her. You want to be close enough to catch her.

All I would say is try.....if at all possible...not to engage directly with XN. The evaluator and so forth can pick fights if needs be....but you Wings will only ever suffer at his hands. And that will not help you, and it will not help d. But he loves it. LOVES it.

I think at 14, d will not be easily budged from whatever position she wishes to take. And I would be very wary of making her do anything. You can drag a horse to water, but you cant make it drink.
 

[NewWings4MeNow]

XNPH has sent a short draft stipulation giving himself pretty much everything except a couple of holidays, taking all child support and even referencing considering charging me for it though he reports $208K in salary.

This is my own personal hell, back in a nightmare from which I can not awaken.

If I stay or walk away, at this point I really do not want to see or talk to d, as I have nothing whatsoever to say to her.  She is 14+ and definitely knows right from wrong.  She is responsible for whatever comes out of her own mouth and for actions she takes and doesn't take.  Just as any 14 year old would be treated in their own home as a functioning, responsible member of a family.  d gets no "bye" from me for her cruelty.  I do not see how I could ever trust my d again, as I believe her behavior like this has been coming on for a while and is a matter of character.

There isn't anything left for XNPH to take from me.

To those mothers out there who say, "Leave and start somewhere else anew after parenting a d for 14 years," I ask, "COULD YOU?"  Could you really, really, actually recover from such trauma?  Could you really go through life and not have it eat your insides for the rest of your life?  Could you?

Healed, maybe.  Eventually.  Wounded and scarred, forever.

I can only speak for myself, and not with the goal of influencing any views here.

NewWings4MeNow

[JennyWren]

I couldn`t Wings. I freely admit. I couldn`t.

[NewWings4MeNow]

I've spoken with the local Women's Resource Center, an advocacy group that lives right next to the courthouse and addresses DV and emergency issues in court daily, and given her a review of what's happened to date. 

The woman there told me that XNPH has violated the law, that I need to call the police and report him, that I could be held liable if I don't, that d is not the decision-maker until she's 18, that even if d comes to me kicking and screaming I should do it anyway and that all I'm required to provide for her is a safe place to sleep.  She said that whatever d has said or written to me about her preferences do not play a role and that she can tell a judge later.  She said they deal with these circumstances all the time, even yesterday, and that's that's the way things are viewed and handled.  She was very specific and said she was firm in this information because it's SOP.

So I'm going to call and inquire about what the PD recommends I do; if they ask if I want to file a report I'll have to address that then.  If the police were to visit XNPH, it would be Sunday evening when they return from their trip.

As to this causing any further damage to my R with d, my view is that this isn't about her.  This is a CYA move for myself.

I fully recognize warnings regarding engagement and the "NewWings you're really psycho" comments.  This is something I have to do to follow my own conscience.

....  Well, that was quick.  They no longer send police on custody violation matters.  She said, "They used to, but there were so many violations that now they do it this way."  I fill out a "child visitation" violation form on the DA's website that then goes to a judge and is included in whatever hearing is set up.  Yeah.  Court again.  Typical.  I filed the required "Child Visitation Violation" report, basic info, which goes to the DA's office *and then they say on the site that nothing is done with it* -- that you have to file it yourself with Family Court.  At least it's documented.

NewWings4MeNow

[Imogene]

You need to stop this immediately.  You are hurting your child.  You are hurting yourself.  STOP FIGHTING YOUR EX.  STOP HURTING YOUR DAUGHTER.  FOCUS ON YOUR OWN LIFE.  Now.

[MoreMyself]

To those mothers out there who say, "Leave and start somewhere else anew after parenting a d for 14 years," I ask, "COULD YOU?"  Could you really, really, actually recover from such trauma?  Could you really go through life and not have it eat your insides for the rest of your life?  Could you?
NewWings4MeNow

I couldn't walk away and I didn't.  Even after my teenager threatened to hurt me.  Raised his fist to hit me (his father stepped away to let him get a better aim).  I never, never considered leaving him.  But I also never judged him for it.  Was he responsible for his actions?  Yes and no.  He was a teenager.  Their brains are not fully developed.  They know right from wrong perhaps but they are driven by impulses and act on them without thinking of consequences.

I never considered it a character flaw.  I always kept my eye on the future because I wanted one with him in it.  He was trained by his father to call me names and tell me I was crazy and I can't tell you how many F*** Offs I heard from his mouth.  I never fought him and Imogene is right.  It is not us versus our children, not when they are so young.  And teenagers are young, no matter how old they talk and act.  As for healing, it is possible after getting through the hard years and I never wanted to do anything that would ruin my chance for both of us to heal and to have a relationship. 

I have hesitated to put in my opinion because it seems to me that you have too many opinions coming at you from all directions at the moment.  If you shut those down and listen to your own quiet voice, the one that we all have if we tune in to it, what does it tell you?  What is the right thing to do for both you and your daughter?  The thing that will do least harm to both of you and leave the door open for healing? 

[NewWings4MeNow]

Until I meet with d face to face or am in a setting where we're forced to communicate, I have no desire to just see her alone for a festive occasion. 

I don't have any motivation, right now, past my own need for food and shelter, to deal with people who don't want anything to do with me. 

My quiet voice tells her, "Bon voyage, and stop by sometime when you are willing to have a relationship of any kind of value or substance to both of us."

My quiet voice tells me that I have zero reason to remain here, and way too much pain and loss to look at every day here if this is the way our R will go. 

My quiet voice tells me that I have no idea if my future will have d in it or, by the time she strolls back around, I'll be interested.  If I really go off and build my own life for myself, looking at d will represent looking backward at all the darkness, and I won't be able, or want, to do it.

What do you do when you've had years of a child's untrustworthy behavior?  How could or would you ever trust that person again?  When the person you knew is so hidden or obliterated that you have no trust that person is still in there?

Even the evaluator wrote me, at seeing XNPH's stip today, "Ouch," and said I need a lawyer if I decide to stay.

Part of my opinion is that I will not go through with d what my parents went through with my P brother.  I will not spend my life being treated in an abusive way at close range and keep hoping for something that's destined to not happen.

NewWings4MeNow

[NewWings4MeNow]

I want to express appreciation to all of you who have posted to this thread, who have offered heartfelt and well-intentioned suggestions, advice and perspectives, and who have done all you could to help steer my ship through uncharted waters. 

Given the current uproar, I think it's time to close out this topic and I'll fly solo with it while listening to my quiet voice navigate toward legal resolution and emotional/spiritual healing.  One way or the other, these matters will be handled before the end of 2011.

With my thanks and best wishes to WoN members for such unwavering, generous and compassionate support through all the challenges I've brought here,

NewWings4MeNow

[RB22]

NewWings,

If I were in your shoes, I would check into what are the statute of limitations on all of the back stuff.  I found I had a time limit to challenge his hiding assets... etc.   I hope you have no limitations in your state.

If I were in your shoes, I couldn't leave my child with him,  not without trying legally to change him removing me from her life.  I would have to do it.  Doesn't mean I would want her living with me and abusing me... By filing the contempt charges, I want her to know that I tried (by what means were available to me) to have a relationship with her... I wanted it badly enough that I filed papers with the court to that effect.    Those actions I would want my D to see. 

The ending of the parent child relationship... needs to be between you and her.... not him and her deciding your relationship is over. 

Hugs,

RB

[NewWings4MeNow]

RB,

I've told XNPH I'm going to court over a range of issues, including court-ordered conjoint therapy, and will not sign his lawyer's stip. 

Will be there Monday 9A filing docs.  (He doesn't know this.)

Child support review may occur annually, and I've never had this done because I didn't know I could.

And yes, I'll be filing contempt charges, if only to show d that that is what a citizen does when a law is egregiously broken, and to move to be an active parental participant for an R with her -- not just be steamrollered and disappear.

The guy with the very nice townhouse wrote and has offered me his place in spite of my low income situation, though obviously not doable if CS is cut off immediately before I get a job or have other income.

NewWings4MeNow

[honeybearII]

I am really sorry you are choosing to keep the fight going, Wings.  I can only speak from my experience with my children's feelings during my divorce but I think you are doing the exact wrong things if you are really trying to "show " your daughter how to speak up.  What she is going to see is her parents continual fighting over her and over money for her.  You are effectively telling her, BY YOUR ACTIONS, that she has NO VOICE - the very thing that you have said for months and YEARS that you have been trying to get her to use.

She HAS spoken.  She has said by her actions and words that she is CHOOSING the stability of living with her father at this moment in time and that she is okay with that.  If you continue down this road, I can pretty much guarantee that your daughter will turn into a beast of a teenager that you will NOT want to deal with.  She is angry, hurt, and confused NOW.  If you take this road, drag her into court, drag her kicking and screaming from her father's house, she will NOT see this as you "speaking up for your rights".  She will see it as you stifling her, forcing her, and continuing this ongoing feud with her father that she has experienced for years and years.

Look after yourself, Wings, and LET THIS GO.  Love your daughter, but don't try to manipulate this situation any longer.  You might win this battle, but you will lose the war and do irreparable harm to your relationship with your D.  Put this anger and energy into finding work and getting on with your own life.
Honey

[overwhelmed]

Wow wings, I'm sorry. Your head must be spinning, mine is for you. I don't want to add to the various opinions here and it seems that's the last thing you need. I firmly believe your ex has set this stage for a long time coming. Whatever you do, my only opinion is to stop all communication with him, even a response to him. Whatever you do, do with actions. Also, whatever he says or threatens, just because he says it, doesn't mean its true or fact. Hang in there. I wish we lived close, you could work for my mom while looking. And our dogs could play at the park.

[Imogene]

If you file these charges on Monday and succeed in having a temporary order to have the original custody agreement reinstated, and your daughter returned to you in your hotel room--well, I can't even imagine a judge allowing it.  You are in a bad place mentally and emotionally, you have no job and no home, and your daughter doesn't want to live with you.  I think you're going to lose your daughter if you keep pushing this aggressively.  But say you win short-term.  Your daughter is going to hate you.  And you are in no position to deal with that.  You will keep insisting that she listen, obey, change, all the while condemning her.  She could run away from home, start using drugs, be kidnapped by your ex FOR HER OWN GOOD.

This is a blunt and unfriendly message.  But I know there is a NewWings who asks the right questions and has a real interest in her daughter.  Please reach deep and find that NewWings.  Stop letting the warrior in you destroy you.  You are bringing an innocent girl down with you.

[overwhelmed]

Maybe so imogene and its obviously for newwings to decide. I think its confusing to on one hand suggest her d is suffering abandonment issues then suggest walk away. I'm lost on abdanmenet being an issue when nobody was abandoned. I agree she can't make her come kicking and screaming. But I see papers being changed as scary.  Very scary for a mom. What about asking they stay the same while waiting to see if d has a desire to reconnect?  Let's reverse the situation, if I refused exn court ordered visitation stating our d doesn't want to go (which she doesn't) he'd say its because I "brainwash" her and put things in her head. He'd fight me, he'd FORCE her. Everyone would say, attorney included, its in my best interest to encourage d to go and yes, shed have to go kicking and screaming (and will). Everyone will be telling me to be strong and help my d tp do what she has to, to encourage the relationship, etc. Why is it different this way with the n? 

[overwhelmed]

BTW, that question isn't to debate newwings situation. I trust her to do what's best for her situation. It's asked out of my own curiosity in regards to the general subject.

[NewWings4MeNow]

Yes, XNPH has been setting this up for a long time, at least a year that I can see.  Actually no -- ever since he blocked my Bay Area moveaway request two years ago.

d has a Voice, she'll use it in therapy and in court (which she's already chosen to do by XNPH taking the trial route initially) and custody will change but not to the severe extreme she and XNPH want.  She is now running away and hiding, and acting out, and that is not healthy.

I've done the legally necessary and correct thing in reporting, and d won't be forceably removed from anywhere.

If d wants to live with XNPH, the way they have gone about this is wrong and unhealthy in completely shutting me out of d's life, and I will move to rectify that using the court process if necessary. 

I have the ability to multi-task, am looking for work and have been invited to take a townhouse while all this is also going on.

There are no guarantees as to how this will turn out, even to those comments which seem to have a crystal ball.

I'll just reiterate here that the law says "consistent and ongoing contact with both parents", that has flatly NOT occurred, and I've been told in no uncertain terms that I will not lose all custody. 

To those of you who may think I'm any kind of an unfit mother at this point, I thank you for your support.  I know XNPH and the lifestyle and amoral values in which he was raised.  And all of d's acting out behaviors so far have been copies of his own as a teen.  If she wants to run away from me, I'll give her ample room to run in court, ASAP, get it over with and put everybody out of their misery -- but at least I'll know where I stand.  It's ironic that just 1.5 years ago d told me that, if I moved to the Bay Area without her, she'd get on a bus or train to come join me if XNPH prevented her from doing so.

To those whose view is that d has chosen, hers is not the only life and heart involved or affected here.  It is possible for her to have her way in a modified fashion.  My goal is to bring the pendulum back closer to center from the outward extreme to which its swung.

I won't continue to justify my choices and actions in an environment where I'm put solely to blame for all that has occurred simply for not folding from an action I've been told is being brought against me.  I have been positioned by some on this forum as the attacker, and I find that almost comical.

And if I lose completely, I'll focus on my own life and move on.

NewWings4MeNow

[RB22]

NewWings,

My thoughts, you need to file the paperwork for you.  If it goes no where... you followed the law.
My feeling is that this is more for you to show X, he doesn't have all the power... but what should be first in your mind is a relationship with D.  Not fighting with him.

I think I would let it go.... when you and your D can sit down and discuss this.  And that comes with listening to her speak stuff that will hurt to hear... without saying anything to reason, justify or rationalize ... anything that puts you pushing your perception of the truth to her is NOT going to work.  Let her keep her perceptions...with time, maturity (and life experiences) her perceptions may change.  Once you and d can be in each other's presence without drama... then would be the time to work on you and she defining your parenting time.  Truthfully, I don't think you will get there until the anger in the relationship is lessened, and that may take time.

She IS going to be angry, rage-filled.  No one LIKES being told what to do, especially teenagers.  And they know how to push our buttons to the nuclear bomb level.  To do this you need some tough skin... like Ninja Turtle shell tough. Let her get that anger out of her system... she needs that outlet.   But do not take it personally... she will parrot X and add her own twist on things to twist the knife further into your gut.  She needs to let this out.. my feeling is once it is out and gone... only then can you move forward.

What I would want (if I were you) is a quiet time for you and she to work out a schedule where you both have a voice and are heard. I don't think that will happen... until the anger(from both of you) is spent.

As much as you want X to help (and in a perfect world, he would) by making D call you/be available to you He has proven by his very nature that the law is meant to be broken... he is doing that again and again.   Use the law to take him OUT of your relationship with D... and dont' let her USE him as a gatekeeper to your relationship with her. You want to Use the law to get rid of the gatekeeper, not to force your D into a relationship with you.  You know how that goes... it would be repeating the last year and a half. 

The law is there to help you find the time to build a relationship... use that time come up with a plan of visitation that SHE and YOU can live with, no matter what the law/agreement/XN says. It is up to you and she to come to terms with your relationship.

Keep the phrases " I don't see things that way."  ready for when d mentions the past...and "Where do we go from here?" to keep the subject on the future.

My thinking is if you and she can get past the anger of the last few  years.... then and only then you will be able to move forward with something that works for the 2 of you.  If that means letting her go, that's ok. At least you both will have had a say in how the relationship moves forward.

Wings, she wants to be treated like an adult.... treat her like one when she starts to get her anger under control..  Kids have temper tantrums, adults control their anger and tru to work on compromises that they can live with.  This situation is going to take your D into her adulthood... maybe it's time to give her some incentive to behave more maturely in this situation. Being treated like an adult can be an incentive to most teens.

Hugs,

RB

[Julia]

overwhelmed, I, too have had times, seasons, where I had to urge the kids to go with XN. I did it for all the reasons you mention... it was legally and morally the right thing, and also, I suspected that they would be hurt even more if he completely abandoned them. Why are the rules different for the N, and would he return me the favor? No, of course he wouldn't, that is what this site is all about. Everything in our post-N world is turned upside down, none of it is fair or what would happen in a regular r/s.

And honestly, that is why I still urge Wings to get away and make her own life, for now. In a post-N, everything-is-upside-down-world, leaving d for 6 mo to 1 year might be the only way to heal the burning distance between them. Leaving XN (walking away from the fight), may be the only way to win the fight. Embracing humility, living in her car; slowly getting better jobs, can be the best way to find self-respect in new independence.

Wings, in my reactivity post I mentioned that people who have r/s with Ps have the hardest time getting over reactivity. I was specifically thinking of you.  I wrote that to get over the reactivity you need to experience r/s with people who respect your boundaries. You need to have lots of time practicing this until you get stronger and feel safer and healthier in your skin, focus more on your own situation rather than hyper-focus on others. In other words, people who are super reactive are very hard to be around. THis is something that I didn't put in the reactivity thread yet. THey lash out emotionally, they assume the worst in people because they are reacting impulsively to past abuse. They tend to violate others' boundaries, just as much or sometimes more than theirs have been violated.

 I believe that when your d is with you, you have poor boundaries with her, and have had for years. It felt like the right, concerned mom thing to do, but it has now created a chasm between you. Yes, there was also a LOT of healthy r/s as well!!! But I think your d is reacting against that boundary crossing (yes and using her Voice like you taught her) to protect herself. She exaggerates all of the things you hate just to make her point. I firmly believe that she would MUCH rather have a healthy r/s with you, but that she will continue to push you away until you can respect her as a person and stop judging her and calling her a P.  I completely and totally agree with Honey, that going to court to fight to force her to come to you, or to ask for Ns money will cause irreparable harm between you, on both sides.

On the other hand, leaving her with a CLEAR message that you are doing so to regain your health and get financially stable, that you are looking forward to moving past your anger with her and XN, that you want to find joy in other things and eventually reconnect with her on that basis when you have a job and enough time has passed to clear the air. THat you are weary and perhaps need to go quiet during the holidays, but want to tell her that your love for her is the thing that gives you the willpower to start over like this. And frankly apologize for all those times you told her she was just like XN and his family, tell her you are going to find some life where you can be calm and be yourself while letting her be her own person as well.


Julia

[NewWings4MeNow]

I have known for quite some time the views of me of the members of this forum.

And knew the reactivity post was about me.

I told d exactly one time that she was like XNPH and have never, ever called her a P.

It won't ever be possible for me to feel safe or healthy in my skin living in this area or, frankly, living with d given the damage that I feel has been done, to the extent folks seem to expect I'm supposed to be living. 

XNPH and d have been given ample opportunities to meet with me alone and/or with the evaluator.  They have chosen to not face me.  To not face me and hash all this out once and for all.  They've chosen the chicken sh*t way out.  And because of this lack of resolution, we go to court.

Yes, I'm weary.  Yes, I'd prefer to have no contact for half a year.  Yes, my heart would break 1000x over to do so.  No, the evaluator has made it clear that we need contact in order for this silence to not harden.  Yes, what I'm having to do now is hard and stands against my definition of safety.  No, I haven't been hyper-reactive to boundaries; I've acknowledged abusive treatment on d's part.  And I've come to WoN to vent in whatever direction my brain and heart were taking me at the time, looking at a load of approaches and possibilities, supposedly in safety.

Violate d's boundaries?  Did I not give her privacy in her room?  No.  Not encourage her private talks with XNPH?  No.  Did I call her 10x/day when she didn't pick up?  No.  Did I not sit on the floor with her and ask her what mattered to her that day?  No.  Have I contacted her more than 1x/day since I've been gone, or even more than 2-3x/week?  No.  Did I force d to buy things she didn't like, eat foods she hated, spend time with me when she wished she was elsewhere?  No.  Did I continue to speak with her when she was busy/needed to be doing other things?  No.  Did I keep her awake talking in the middle of the night?  No.  Did I interrupt her private bathroom time?  ALL I did was insist on manners, responsiveness and decency in our home.  That was it.  In a nutshell.  And for that I'm being vilified.  To those who are afraid that d will run away, she's already run away.

Boy.  I don't really know what to say on this forum at this point.  Getting bludgeoned in real life and in virtual life makes me feel even more Voiceless than I've felt before.

Yes, the decisions are mine.  Yes, there's loss no matter which way I go.  Yes, I'd like to right past wrongs.  Yes, I wish I never met XNPH.  To those who say I need to "move past my anger at XNPH", if you were living in this nightmare of aggressions, could you? 

I just want to be away from this, yet can't be away from this YET.  It is my own personal hell but it will be short-term. 

By my stating I'm taking this to court, d and XNPH will have an opportunity act like adults, be treated like adults and deal with the consequences as adults would.  I've been dealing with two teenagers through this, not just one.  If XNPH comes back around to negotiate or if I follow through, we'll see then.

To those who might think I haven't come very far as a WoN member in eight years, that's really just unkind.  I've dealt with a new and bad escalation of issues and troubles, and have come here for help and support and yes, I've gotten a lot of views that have made me uncomfortable but that is the chance one takes.  I spent years on this forum trying to help others too, often successfully it seemed, and I hope that, through time, that part of who I am isn't forgotten completely because it's also still who I am.  It appears that in the WoN court of public opinion, I'm just plain wrong and will live to regret most any action I take at this point.  I can live with that as I've felt straitjacketed for years, and this seems not much different.

Don't have anything more to say.  Thank you for your insights, views and efforts on my behalf.

NewWings4MeNow