who did the discarding?

[alatariel]

From what I've read, it seems like most of us who have been the ones doing the "discarding", have done it in the case of family members  or friends who are N's and we went NC with them to save our own sanity.  In the case of spouses or significant others, it seems like the majority of us were left by the N. 

I'd just like to get a sense of how different it is, if at all, when WE are the ones doing the leaving.

If we leave, is the N more likely to want to "get back together"?  Do I have as much right to be as devastated as the ppl who were left, since I made the decision to leave and need to take responsibility for that decision?  Does the fact that I left imply that I'm the one who didn't put sufficient time and effort into making changes in myself?  I mean, let's face it, I bailed when the going got too tough.  Oh, and let's not forget that I walked away from my FOO, too, rather than continue to face that pain.

[Rosemary]

Well i went N.C. with my NM  Altariel so i think you are right about family  doing it  .I felt nothing at all no feelings for her ,because she wasnt a mother to me  she didnt care so in the end my love died for her too.
I moved 300 miles away from my family  and didnt even write to her , i had an adopted son atthe timeand was married to my 1st husband .
I divorced him after his adultary ,and married my second  husband  ,i had my first baby even without any contact .

Then the family somehow got my MiL address or phone number  and she said i aught to get in touch  .
I did this and all i got was a nasty blaming horrible letter  (may still have that somewhere ) it was unbelievable  really nasty .so i went N.C. again .

With my STBXNH  he has left me 3 times  the first time i dont have any proof he had any woman .he just didnt come home for a few days  .The kids were only small youngest about 1yrold .the secondtime   he ran off to live with another woman .later i took himback .This time he ran off ,but we were living apart because of his drinking ,and being in debt .
So i started divorce, he was  back  home in his own flat after 2 weeks (must have been kickedout ) and sent me txt sayin " dont sps your interested im back home"   cheeky swine!!!  No i feel sad that he is such a badfather and husband .The kids feel the same and told him soooo .
but i also feel very angry both with myself and the situation .

[RB22]

Alatariel,

I bailed on my family... I moved and not being near them cut the contact to minimum. 

Looking back on my marriage, prior to his flagrant d&d stage, I was the one who left him.  I used to greet him at the door with kids... that stopped when the kids started getting homework and things started getting more and more complicated in my life. I let him go....and I didn't even notice it happening, I was so caught up in kids and their stuff.   I sort of put him (our marriage) on a shelf in order to raise the kids. I thought we both did this.  Little did I know he was getting stroked somewhere else.  Then d&ding me .... then when I had truth biting me on the nose and it was only a suspicion... I told him to leave and he did.

I have trouble with who left, he physically but after emotionally leaving, I left emotionally (sort of) before that. 

Not matter who left, we still had dreams/visions of what our future would look like.... saying goodbye to that vision has been more difficult than saying goodbye to him. I have to alter my vision of my future... and it is the most anxious provoking thing I have to do.  Rewriting my future without someone to bounce ideas off of or to help me process decisions.

I was discarded.... but I think so was he.

[alatariel]

Well, I was also discarded in a sense, first by dickhead burying himself at the bottom of a beer can instead of being either husband or father.  Then I was discarded by troll when she decided I wasn't "enough" or whatever and treated me more like hired help or a pet than like an actual friend.

BUT, I was just reading the article about "Emotional Vampires" and there were too many things I could check off about myself.  I've been told all my life that I'm too negative, troll and dickhead always glazed over during conversations with me, I can be a drama queen, and sometimes I'd rather complain than find a solution. 

Which got me to thinking, when are we most likely to complain and drama things up- when we think somebody cares, right?  It's easy to complain to someone we think is either going to care or going to help or both.  Maybe what I needed most in life was to learn once and for all that nobody DOES care, nobody is going to help, there is no backup and nobody is going to bail me out, so I'd damn well better work on solving my problems myself.  It seems like, looking back, that I function best when I realize that if I want something done, I need to do it myself.  It's when I attempt to rely on someone else that things blow up in my face and ppl bail out.  And that's probably due to me being overly needy.  I seem to be an "all-or-nothing" sort of person, and if I need someone, I need them too much.

[Rosemary]

Alatariel  It may not be  needy  ,i mean we are all looking for Love its natural,, the NNNNs dont listen to anyone whatever you are saying they glaze over,, cos they couldnt give a shite thats why ..

dont  make the mistake of blaming yourself its not you its them they cant COPE with any responsibility and that means love and caring about you and listening what you want to say too .they have NNNOOOO interest at all .

[alatariel]

I'm not saying they're not N's, or that they didn't treat me like less-than-human.  It's just that I need to be aware that it was a 2-way street in some ways, and I need to remember that in the future if I'm in any sort of relationship again.  Whether we're friends or lovers, that doesn't give me the right to dump all over them or expect them to listen to my problems if I haven't at least tried to solve them for myself.  It also doesn't give me the right to be a drama queen, ever.  If I tell them about something going wrong, and they give advice, I need to at least give their solution a try before insisting that it won't work.  Or better yet, just ask them to help me brainstorm right at the outset, instead of reeling off a constant litany of negativity.

[Rosemary]

I see what you mean Alatariel , but speaking for myself  i couldnt listen to my N for advice as it was all such a drama
such confusion around him always in a mess.Glad i dont have to deal with that anymore,hope it will be a more peaceful xmas this year without him.

[Imogene]

X left me.  But I was thinking about leaving him, or at least trying to get back in the game enough (have a job and a support network) so that I could leave without struggling.  A year ago I was terrified of being on my own.  I have always taken care of other people and got my needs met through gratifying them (the definition of codependence, I realize).  I also got to be alone a lot, which let me regulate all the stress that comes from living with a narcissistic person. 

I think X must have seen the writing on the wall, because he did not leave me for someone else or for any reason he could name (and there were some real problems with the marriage that he could have pointed to).  He fell in love with someone who wasn't interested and had a fantasy of finding a new mommy who would step into my role effortlessly, and then he was just done with me as though I had never existed--except he still wants to hang out with me and my daughter, has his mail delivered here, etc.

There is no love lost on my part.  I had fallen out of love with him, and during the d&d, and especially having to come to grips with how he was treating my daughter, I lost all respect for him.  I don't respect irresponsible people, and it doesn't get any more irresponsible than using your child to meet your emotional needs, when what you really want--have repeatedly said you were leaving the marriage to find--is true love.

I can echo RB's sentiments to a certain degree--I was emotionally detached from X for a long time before the d&d.  But RB, if you are reading, don't you think that if he were emotionally responsive and supportive, you would have developed a relationship that worked?  It's realizing that the whole relationship was not real--that the "plans" for the future meant nothing, because they were lies; the only real future was his future, and if things failed to go his way, he was just planning to sleep around or bail on the marriage or whatever made him feel good in the moment.  That's what gets to me.  If I had known the whole thing was a lie, I would have left. 

[Julia]

Alaterial, I agree with what you said, and it is mature and responsible. I think some of us are negative, going back to childhood, because that is what we were raised with, along with not having a loving parent who wanted to raise us better than they were raised,  never having parents who listen and help, who believe in us. It sounds like you acknowledge that in some ways you have been looking for a man or friend to be that parent you never had.

Well, at least we have each other here, and it IS more like real friends and parents because we support each other and want the best for each other, but we care too much to just nod and agree if,  really, we think the person needs to make some changes. It is a relationship where we get the loving focus of several friends and parents on one thread, and then get to be loving parents to someone else on the next thread.

At the end of my 15 year marriage I was shrill at times, I used swear words to get his attention at times, I distrusted him and disliked him, but I also held the entire house and family together and soothed his mind, and gave and gave and gave.  I really did not moan and groan and bipch very much...... and I have a feeling you did not either, at least not in the first 5 years......, the reason we got so FED UP and started reacting more and more is that they gave us not one tiny bit of help/support/ attention despite us being so giving/forgiving.

 I remember, in the first 10 years,  being upset to the point of hyperventilating several times and STILL not connecting the real problem to him and his gaslighting and emotional abuse.  He is a doctor, and yet, after several minutes of barely breathing, I had to try to speak and ask him to get me a paper bag, as he emotionlessly looked at me breaking down in response to his words. A woman gets increasingly distrustful and shrill after enough of this treatment, even if she is mostly in denial. I am quite certain that the same sort of change happened to you.

I think that people who left, had XNs who were much more overt, who physically hurled verbal abuse, or physically used their body to hit, block, threaten, or who wracked up a series of OW so long that it could no longer be denied. Either that, or they had healthy ( or at least average) childhoods and could realize that they deserved better (had once had better). Also, temperament makes a difference, energetic extroverts are much more likely to leave than depressed introverts. Also, as in some of the older members, like CZ, or my mother, it is a sense of morals against divorce, making things work, that made them stay so long. There are a lot of factors influencing who leaves and who gets left, so please cut yourself some slack while you work you way through this. But I applaud you for not just blaming every single bad day on the XN.

Julia

[Proud2B]

Reading all our posts, and knowing my own background, what really catches my attention is our sky-high tolerance for pain. 

Regardless of who physically or emotionally left first, generally speaking, we were all REACTING to a painful, intolerable situation.

When an N leaves, they leave for reasons other than having tried everything they can to make the relationship work, or can no longer bend themselves into a tighter pretzel, or their partner continues to verbally, physically, or emotionally abuses them.  N's leave because their supplied dried up, or they found better supply somewhere else.

N's don't leave because we hurt them in some way.  They leave because we are too injured to go along with their delusions anymore, or we see behind the mask. 

Our motivations for ending the relationship - literally or figuratively - are totally different.  Many times we end it because of other people in our lives, like our children.  What N would do that?

Don't be too hard on yourselves, Ladies.  Don't be quick to take on their blame.  Don't berate yourself for reacting normally to an abnormal situation.  They'd love for you to do that.  In fact, they COUNT on it. 

Proud2B

[Never again]

That is so well said, Proud2B. Those of us who discarded the Ns did it only when no other earthly option was left (OK, bar murder or something  ) and when considerable damage had already been done to us. Those of us who were discarded would never have ended a relationship with another person in the same manner.

Personally, I feel I was discarded the day we moved in together. That was when the demeaning comments began and when I was transformed from love of his life into his daughter's babysitter. I 'discarded' him by moving out two years later, then spent two crazy years when he was trying to get me back but refused to acknowledge his prior behaviour or even talk about it. I finally saw totally through him a year ago and 'discarded' him forever. And yes, I devalued him first too. But as I used to say to him when he would whine that I didn't seem to love him as much anymore: "What the hell did you expect??"

Never again

[confused]

Alatariel,

I minimized all contact with the remaining members of my NFOO. One of my sisters is a N, and my remaining uncle is a FLAMING N (I don't talk to him at all).
But my last 2 intimate relationships were with disordered men who discarded me. We had issues, but I was sort of stunned when they D and D'd.

Imogene's comment--"...If I had known the whole thing was a lie, I would have left." is so true for me in these relationships. I thought we were working through some stuff, but then they--certainly Mr. Paranoid--suddenly withdrew in kind of a horrifying way.

And Proud's "...what really catches my attention is our sky-high tolerance for pain."
Yes. I'm guessing that is intrinsic to partnering with a N or other PD'd. Without that tolerance, someone else would have left at the beginning (speaking for myself anyway...), when the first signs of abuse were apparent.

[JennyWren]

I had a panic about this a while back.....and it still leaps up and taps me on the metaphorical shoulder periodically....

For me the question is "What is the difference between d&d and NC?"

I found myself berating BigBird for his ice cold d&d and repugnant spitting behaviour....and then looking at myself and my refusal to have any contact with him....and I see that from his point of view....it would look exactly like d&d. And that bothered me.

The cool calm and collected folk here clarified things by explaining the following...

The d&d by BigBird happened as a response to the shite going on in his own pea-brain....not as a response to things I have done...or in response to things he thinks I have done...or should have done...or shouldn`t have done...or WHO KNOWS WHAT.

The NC by me is in response to a whole lot of tangible shite coming at me directly from a single source....BigBird. So as self preservation...I decline to respond to his raging madness.

In short...the d&d is unprovoked except in the Ns mind....NC is a response to an unbearable real situation.

Of course....I can still argue that the N sees it as the other way around. Ain`t that just Ns all over.

I don`t know if this helps any....but just to say...I think part of NOT BEING A STINKING FESTERING SWAMP-BRAINED N is questioning our behaviour and evaluating and reevaluating all the time. When did an N ever do that? Their heads would fall off and explode after 3 seconds in protest. Good. 

[Dandelion]

Wow...alatariel I never saw it this way!

From what I've read, it seems like most of us who have been the ones doing the "discarding", have done it in the case of family members  or friends who are N's and we went NC with them to save our own sanity.  In the case of spouses or significant others, it seems like the majority of us were left by the N.

Reading this it suddenly dawned on me that I NC'ed my FOO - every one else that I have lost, has been THEM NC'ing me. I have lost three girlfriends over the years.
One could not accept that I had been with her boyfriend before her and said some less nice things about him (Fair enough, we were 30 years old and I thought he was totally boring and had told her. I understand this completely).
One could not accept that I went NC with my father (You just don't do that! It's your dad!!!)
One cut me off because I told the authorities that her son was suffering from her being miserable when she would not take affairs into her own hands and get help (I understand that too)

I have never thought of it this way. But then you write that spouses leave us. IN a way that is true - I always have been the one to break it off - except once or twice - but they "left" me by prioritizing stuff over me/us - work, friends, alcohol. And for me to stay alive and not also leave me, I had to leave them. I see that as a sign of healthy behavior. Maybe my choices in partners have not been very healthy but at least I have been able to remove myself from them when I found out.

You have every right to be devastated ala - I left my husband one month ago because he was chronically depressed and wouldn't see it himself. I cried myself to sleep for 2 weeks because I loved him and missed him, but I knew I had to get out to stay sane.
He was rthe love of my life the first 4 years, then he turned bad like a rotten apple. 

Hugs

[MoreMyself]

I have trouble with who left, he physically but after emotionally leaving, I left emotionally (sort of) before that. 

This also is my problem.  The Hobbit started practice runs by leaving me or more precisely abandoning me in stressful family times when I most needed him.  He would go overseas on so-called business and once left to live in a nearby town for a year and half (until he was fired from the job).

After we sold the business he announced he was going to return to his 'real' family in Canada and live there 6 months out of every year.  To me this was the end of our marriage.  He made this announcement to my surprise and with no consultation, then proceeded to start going there and spending longer and longer there.  I believe there was another woman but have never been able to confirm it.  The last time he left I didn't know until that morning and challenged him on why he was going back when he had only just returned three weeks earlier.  He wouldn't tell me and said he had 'unfinished business'. 

I thought about it and a few days later contacted him and asked for a separation.  He made a weak offer to return to work on things but seemed relieved when I told him not to bother.  He finished his stay and when he came back he fought for a while to remain in the house, to kick out our teenage son and take his room!  I had been calling it a trial separation but after a couple of weeks of arguing and fighting he just announced we would divorce and it was over and he got himself an apartment. 

He didn't want me and was openly disdainful of me. I felt the same way about him at the end. But he wanted the facade of marriage to go on while he did whatever he wanted.  So who left?  We both did, in my opinion.  But I was the one who said the words first and did the hard work to end the marriage while he dragged his feet hoping I'd change my mind.

After writing this message I have more clarity.  I don't think it matters who finished it (instigated the leaving) but what matters is who started it.  It is clear in my mind that the Hobbit, with his rages, his derision and his periodic abandonments started the process.

[JennyWren]

After writing this message I have more clarity.  I don't think it matters who finished it (instigated the leaving) but what matters is who started it.

Now THAT makes sense.

BigBird used to chirp and twitter on about "Cause and Effect"....he said he was entitled to leave (the effect).....because I was such a bad wife (the cause).....but he couldn`t take it the quantum leap back to it`s root cause.....I was a "bad wife" because he is an ABUSIVE PIG. 

In attempts to point out that there may be a little bit more to it than my bad wife-ing...it just quickly became an exercise in "You did it first"...."no...it was YOU" as Ns do like to play that playground favourite.

But despite BigBird`s limited capacity for thought....it IS actually about cause and effect.

The N`s disorder is the cause....or the root or whatever. Take that away and none of the "effects" would have happened. And it is the effects....and our reactions that we beat ourselves up over.

Which of us here if in a relationship with a non-N capable of love would have had the relationship car-crashes that we all have suffered? Not one of us. I`d bet my oreos on it.

[Rosemary]

Thats true Jenny about the car crashes because the break up with my first husband over adultary was very different
to this N divorce with NC .

[Snowbird]

I found myself wishing that he would discard me because then I would be rid of him! He was obviously disgusted with me---the "bad wife" as Jenny put it---and was constantly criticizing. I figured, why doesn't he just get out if he's that unhappy? And I knew if I was the one to leave I'd be in for the fight of my life, which is hard to even consider when you are deep into the FOG.
Of course I just kept trying harder....to no avail since he would raise the bar or have arbitrary demands.

Long story short, the result of his MLC--which came about because of his job security in the financial sector-- looks a little different than a lot of the stories I have read here. He did not have an affair or bail out and leave me alone.
Nope. He dug in his heels, ramped up the control and isolation and diktats and became a real life Captain Bligh.

You shall not have any independent thoughts...or any friends....you shall do what your husband requires (yes, he referred to himself in the third person)...I will tell you how to raise the children and you will give them instructions ordered by me.....you will not go out and do fun things with said children; school breaks are for doing projects around the house...

So, in the end it was I who filed for divorce and I who am maintaining NC while he tried to get me to reconsider (hey, he had a good thing going with the servant/wife setup) and is now filing motions to have contact with the children who want nothing to do with him.

But really, I didn't discard him so much as escape. I would have been willing to stay married forever to someone who treated me like a human being worthy of respect and consideration.

[rossignolchante]

Interesting to think about...

I kind of think that N's deep fear of abandonment led him to become someone who would be abandoned.

He was attracted to me, and I never fully let him in because on some visceral level I didn't feel secure with him.
I think he felt that.
He told me the reason he sought out another woman was because he was afraid I would leave him.  And while I don't accept that as a reason, I think there is some truth in it.  From the beginning, I was anxious and questioning the relationship.  Except that I gave him many opportunities to leave, right up until the moment when I discovered his other life, which he didn't take.  I thought we were going to part on amicable terms, and then I found out about his double life!

Way back at the beginning of our r (about 7 months in) he had started the double life, which inevitably would have to come to an end, effectively sabotaging any chance that our relationship, or the other relationship, could ever progress. (It's also possible in his version of 'great love' such an infidelity could be overcome...the way he talked after everything was discovered sounded like this...he would be a better, no, the BEST man, partner, lover, etc ever blah blah blah) I had been detaching emotionally before that, as a protective measure.  ( I think sometimes that maybe if he hadn't been a narcissist I could have loved him, because I did feel warmly towards him at times, and then it would disappear, I think because the emotional connection just couldn't be sustained.)

When I look at it psychoanalytically,  I kind of feel it was a sort of self fulfilling prophesy, that under the veneer of inflated self-esteem, that other huge chasm of worthlessness is what is really driving his behaviour so he behaved in a way so as to draw someone into his life who would reflect back to him his fear that he really is a terrible warped, sick person. 

I only discarded him though, when I found out how he had disrespected and betrayed me and saw that he would continue to try to manipulate me with no regard for my personal well being.  Even when I was detaching emotionally in the r, I still treated him like a human being.  Actually, even when I discarded him, I still treated him like a human being.  Just a human being that I wanted nothing to do with.

[alatariel]

I kind of think that N's deep fear of abandonment led him to become someone who would be abandoned.

He was attracted to me, and I never fully let him in because on some visceral level I didn't feel secure with him.
I think he felt that.

That's an interesting point, Rossignol, and one I've thought about more than once.  I've often wondered if I'm so afraid of being abandoned that I became someone who would be abandoned, and I chose relationships with ppl who would abandon me, emotionally if not physically.  Especially with the troll, there was something about her from the beginning that made me wary.  I couldn't simply relax and enjoy the "friendship", whatever it was, b/c I was always holding back, afraid she would discard me.  Which was a self-fulfilling prophecy, b/c she did discard me several times before I finally walked away for good.  And believe me, she used my fear of abandonment against me every chance she got, too.  It was her primary weapon of control.  If she didn't call me for a day or two, I'd start hyperventilating, wondering what I did wrong, how I could fix it...

[rossignolchante]

Hi Alateriel,

I had a good friend who was afraid of being alone, so what she did was be alone for a time, totally investing in what she wanted and liked.  She told me that when she stopped caring about finding a partner, is when she met her now-husband.

I don't know if that is a way to overcome a fear of abandonment, but it seems to me that to overcome the fear, it must be faced.

I think exNbf couldn't face that fear, because it would mean acknowledging that he was a person deserving of being abandoned, and that was far too painful for him to contemplate for very long.

I also might read too much into things

For myself, I have the opposite fear--of engulfment.  So, I guess in that sense he was the perfect non threatening partner for me, since he couldn't connect emotionally, he couldn't engulf me with his feelings.  And yet, I did yearn for connection.

He still tried to control me, however, which was uncomfortable and which I resisted as much as I could.

[nutella]

I am going with the "who started it" theory.  Never conceptualized it that way.    Technically I ended it.  But it was at a great cost, being a man, I gave up the most important aspects of my life. 

 

[RB22]

He fell in love with someone who wasn't interested and had a fantasy of finding a new mommy who would step into my role effortlessly, and then he was just done with me as though I had never existed--except he still wants to hang out with me and my daughter, has his mail delivered here, etc.

There is no love lost on my part.  I had fallen out of love with him, and during the d&d, and especially having to come to grips with how he was treating my daughter, I lost all respect for him.  I don't respect irresponsible people, and it doesn't get any more irresponsible than using your child to meet your emotional needs, when what you really want--have repeatedly said you were leaving the marriage to find--is true love.

I can echo RB's sentiments to a certain degree--I was emotionally detached from X for a long time before the d&d.  But RB, if you are reading, don't you think that if he were emotionally responsive and supportive, you would have developed a relationship that worked?  It's realizing that the whole relationship was not real--that the "plans" for the future meant nothing, because they were lies; the only real future was his future, and if things failed to go his way, he was just planning to sleep around or bail on the marriage or whatever made him feel good in the moment.  That's what gets to me.  If I had known the whole thing was a lie, I would have left.

If he were emotionally responsive and supportive of my dreams.. I would have become more invested in the relationship.  What he had was not awful till the last 2 years when the d & d was at it's worse.  I was beginning to remove myself emotionally fromt he marriage....the way he treated me during that time.. left no doubt in my mind that he killed whatever s I could uster toward him. 

Now he is nothing to me.  Which is exactly what I was/am to him.

[loved2much]

[the reason we got so FED UP and started reacting more and more is that they gave us not one tiny bit of help/support/ attention despite us being so giving/forgiving.]

This is how is was for me at the end of our relationship.  Thank God I had maintained my own life with friends and family and played music with my own groups away from the N Ustabe (used to be).  In the end, I did not like who he was and when he talked to me it was like talking with someone I didn't know at all...and didn't want to know. 

Thanks for all your sharing here...it gives me a lot to think about. 

[alatariel]

In the end, I did not like who he was and when he talked to me it was like talking with someone I didn't know at all...and didn't want to know. 

That's how it was with dickhead, by the end I didn't want to know him, and actually didn't  know him as he was leading some sort of mysterious "other life" before his suicide attempt.  That relationship was over long before I walked out the door, I was just too stubborn to admit it.  I didn't want to raise my kids in a "broken home" and thought I should stay with him for their sake.

You know what?  I realized last night that leaving him was the best thing I could ever have done for my boys.  The older one had some friends over for the night for his b'day celebration, and I have given him a home he is not ashamed or afraid to invite all his friends to, any time.  He feels comfortable here with them, which wouldn't be the case if dickhead and I were still together b/c we'd be fighting, and no doubt the house would be a dung-heap b/c of my issues with dickhead about housework, and dickhead would probably get drunk and embarrass the kids, etc.  At the very best it would be a tense and uncomfortable atmosphere, not someplace to bring your buddies for a relaxing and fun night.