Ns who are NOT the Golden Child. Cue violins.

[JennyWren]

BigBird is the icklest boy of three brothers. The eldest is Nmother`s Golden Boy with all the sickening trimmings and innappropriate boundaries and so on. Yuck. Where`s the bucket 

Golden Boy is an N. He is a full-on Sam Vaknin in-yer-face arrogant shite of an N. You only have to be in his presence for a minimum of 2 seconds before the very blood in your veins runs cold and you want to run like the wind in ANY direction he is not. Including off a cliff. 

The second son was very close to his non-N father. A normal relationship developed between the two of them..overshadowed of course by the N madness.

Then we have BigBird. Little weeny spoilt boy BigBird. Nobody`s favourite. But desperate to be.

He admitted to feeling left out by the "special relationships" that went on as he grew up. He did not have much in common with his dad....but his Nmother only really had eyes for Golden Boy. He was her little wannabe. Her Court Jester. He was a puppy bounding along at their feet desperate to be noticed.

BigBird is an N. Of course. But he is a different breed. He is desperately insecure. His N-ism is very covert. And very angry. But his false self is incredibly accomplished.
I am wondering if this is because he had to work on his performance in a way Golden Boy never did. I`m wondering if maybe a covert N is more likely to be born of the non-Golden Child position in an NFOO.

It`s just a thought. I hope you see what I`m getting at.

[alatariel]

Oh, gawd, Jenny, you had to bring this up!  Well, just like the N I could be, I'm going to turn it all about me.  'Cuz I've been wondering since you started posting about this conflict whether I'm a closet N, b/c I wanted so desperately to be the Golden One, to be Special, to be the Center of the Room and the Focus of Attention.  My birthday snit is a great example.  Instead of feeling good that I allowed my friend to beg off celebrating and do what she really wanted to do, I feel hurt that I wasn't important enough to her for her to insist on getting together with me.

I've spent most of my life wanting to be important to the ppl around me, and failing miserably.  I was never going to be very important to my FOO b/c I'm not good enough for them, dickhead chose to make alcohol the focus of his life, instead of his wife (or kids), and of course troll is the center of troll's universe.

I should be happy that I was (hopefully still am) important to my kids and I should have made my life all about them, instead I wasted years and years chasing importance from ppl who couldn't care less.

[JennyWren]

Stand down Alatariel  ...it is not the N-ness of wanting to be the golden child I am exploring here...it is the effect on an N....who is born an N...on NOT BEING the golden child I was thinking about.....what kind of an N it makes them.

That you ask if you are the N....shows you can look at yourself objectively....and therefore that you aren`t.

So to be clear...I am NOT suggesting that anyone who craved the love of their parent (Nparent or otherwise) is not immediately an N. That is a very human response. And perfectly normal.

I am just thinking about the N who is not the golden child.

[JennyWren]

Coming back for another shot at this one...as my ds are running about the house like mad things.

Just want to apologise Alatariel...my post is insensitive considering your issues over your birthday, your Nmother`s behaviour and how it has made you feel. Being mad over being ignored does not make you N. 

[JennyWren]

And....furthermore...I am the one being N-ish round here for only thinking about my own thoughts and being obsessed with trying to fathom out BigBird at the expense of the feelings of others.

Right...better go and rescue the pizza.

I really am sorry. 

[smp]

I do believe that as human beings, we are social creatures. We need to matter to those around us. I was very shy and more of a loner as a kid. Probably still am that way. I do find that I hang around kids on a regular basis - that comes from teaching, and being a grandma. I do have some very close and safe friends - real friends. People I usually see only occasionally, yet whenever we are together, or I run into them - it feels like we have always been around each other. A real deep togetherness.

Those are the people who I can call and let them know I feel alone and left out, unloved, unwanted, and alone. There has been much emotional sharing with them, and they know me very well. They are the ones who "love me anyway"! I do need to look to them when I am feeling sorry for myself.

I have also gotten a really nice dog - I am a dog and cat person. Actually a critter person because I have birds and fish too! The feeling of the home being complete now that I have Brody (the new dog)  is just amazing. On a side note, I have been very angry that pigface stole my camera - so I went on ebay and found one just like it that I could afford. Ever since I got it, I feel as if I have lost less, and am getting my life back!

Building my life, post pigface, is coming around bit by bit. If it is something I need, then I now ask for it. Do I always get it? NO! But I have felt a respect from others even when they are not able, for whatever reason, to oblige.

One thing I do have that I am very grateful for - the ability to come here, to WoN. You guys know what I have gone through. You guys never doubted what I said or shared. You guys have always been respectful and supportive. That is what I need in life. I am able to feel loved (?) and can go out into the world on a more even keeled path. My birthday wish for you is to also be able to go on that path. So what if you have a hissy fit? People who love you really do understand it is okay to feel sorry for yourself - maybe you are just getting angry at being treated like crap by some, which will allow you to set boundaries - 

[tango3]

Well Toad definitely wasn't the 'golden' child.  Beloved eldest sister was the golden child.  Even Toad's birth was a huge joke.  Toad's father (definitely an N) decided he wanted a day off of work.  So he told everyone that his wife was having a baby that day (she wasn't) and later ('cos after all even 50 years ago they didn't let you stay in labor for a WEEK) that the baby was a girl.  Of course when Toad was actually born a week later, he wasn't a girl.  Toad's father regaled everyone with this hilarious story and then how he had to tell everyone at work that they'd misheard him he actually said he had a boy but had "wanted" a girl.  Yeah right.

So anyway Toad has spent his entire life trying to get the fond regard of his N father, N father only cared about beloved eldest sister.  So what we end up with is a covert N, who's entire life is dedicated to impressing N father with material goods, and trying to prove that he is better than N father. 

[Julia]

Jenny, this is an interesting topic. And I know you are mortified discussing it now because Alaterial started to doubt herself, but ... talking about it more will probably clear those cobwebs away, or illuminate small webs so that she can clear them herself. Because the world is not filled with just pure evil Ns and completely healthy normals, it is all a continuum of behavior. So any of us can have moments or patterns where we act on N-ish impulses, imitating Npartners or parents, but the fact that it worries us (or even horrifies us), is a very good sign that we are regular folk who DO look at our behavior,  at our fleas left over from close encouNters, and work on our rough edges.....So, Alaterial, please do not be worried...we all have to try to unlearn unhealthy behaviors that have implanted themselves on our brains.

Jenny, the topic interests me because your XN reminds me of mine... the faking it so well and so quietly for so many years, the insane insecurity despite outward success and achievement, the worship/resentment of his FOO. You really got me thinking about golden children and my XNs family. The dynamic so not as clear cut, the NMom not so evil and blatant, but yes, it is similar.

XN is 5th of 6 children, two boys and 4 girls. The big Ns are D2 and S4, both are highly, supremely N and were allowed to dominate the family by virtue of their charisma and success. The point of the family, always, was to make as big a splash as possible in acceptable blueblood endeavors. So whoever could be a star athlete, debater, even star volunteer (!) was on top, got to choose the family activity, got the prime seats, the prime food, the tiny bits of attention that XMIL was willing to let drip out, got HEARD at the table. They were the ones who got to tell the stories, retell the stories, got paraded about in front of the many blueblood visitors to the house.

Anyone who was not at the top of their game was just ignored (as shameful, untalented, or just lazy). OF course, over time, the reputation of the Ns helped them glide through even as they achieved less, they merely regaled everyone with past successes, and out of habit, the other siblings continued to be ignored. No allowance was made for age.... if you were 6 and wanted to be noticed you had to compete against your older siblings and find some arena in which to shine.  Also, XN had to compete with the charismatic, successful, older children of the NMom's blueblood friends who were often over. These are people who are now tenured professors at Harvard and elsewhere, District Attorneys of large cities, and such, so even XNs intelligence (his one true gift) paled in comparison.. and NMom would gladly slather her attention on someone elses' children as long as they were successful and talented enough. XFIL was her puppy and completely submissive, despite being a successful surgeon.

My XN, as the younger and MUCH smaller, much less charismatic, non athletic brother to S4 (surgeon, handsome, tall, athlete, very high charisma)  was left to try to catch up, allowed to follow along, to hang on the edges of all the successful chatter. S4 made sure to torture and mock XN constantly, and XN was the butt of most jokes in the family. I can hardly underestimate how blueblood and striving these people are, they regularly chanted a rhyme that  I have thankfully forgotten, which stated  that being good was dangerous because you could easily be satisfied and not try even harder to be the best. So, the family valued success above all else, and yet when certain members achieved some, finally after great effort, they were scoffed at as merely being "good" with all the covert messages that they were unable or unwilling to be "best".

Now this could have just been a highly successful (non N) family, ... but add in the fact that XMIL didn't like infants and refused to take care of them much...leaving D1 to do it for her, and that is how there are so many Ns (D6  and D3 have high N traits too). THe only really decent sibling is D1... and SHE was held and cared for as an infant and  finally settled for being a nurse while all the others had to be Drs. But their outward success has been mixed with considerable dysfunction; it turns out that "best" is just Nism plain and simple, and by telling everyone to aim for it or at least applaud those who can, the whole family has been affected, and those who were merely "good" felt like complete worthless shite or convinced themselves that they were the best or at least deserved the best. Or both (XN). 

Three out of six  siblings have had major breakdowns, and two have been diagnosed as Bipolar. One of S4s children spent his preschool years aggressively pulling down boys' pants and underwear and then trying to blame it on others, his daughter is heading for anorexia (from a very young age; her growth has been stunted from not eating and the stress), D6's daughter started eating her own excrement at age 5, and is still in therapy at 15, (she was never successful enough for her mother's tastes). D2's children cannot imagine life beyond successful striving or rebelling and feel completely unworthy, one majored in Major Religions, (she is an atheist), just to bug her parents. Despite all this, they all think their FOO was charmed, that they could never be as wonderful as their parents or grandparents, and they only feel really happy when they reenact the family table and all the boasting stories. THeir behavior is similar to normal striving families in it's nature.... but it was obviously so much more extreme, which is what NPD is... the most extreme and dysfunctional end of a spectrum of striving and selfishness.

XN was closer to his father, who is less N, but his brother regularly invited himself along when they went on special trips and then brother went into the same surgical specialty as the father, and stayed in the same town, and finally supplanted XN completely. XN came to despise his father, giving him the withering label "milquetoast", because he didn't stand up to XMIL or anyone. But most of all he resents that they did not teach him how to be a successful charming N.  In his world that is normal, and anything I had to offer (mostly in the opposite direction), was viewed with increasingly silent but deadly scorn until his eventual MLC.

Julia

[JennyWren]

So....this makes a lot of sense to me....Toad in the shadow of the hallowed Golden Child sister....becomes a covert N...Of course, he also worships his sister, as BigBird does his Golden Child brother. And he sits in the shadows yearning to be admired. Even though he was born too late and the wrong sex 

Julia`s XNs family is complicated by their numbers...( I am very interested that d1 came through as non-N, having been the first child and therefore shown a little affection....maybe her genes also favoured her. Poor poor girl growing up amongst the dynamic described)....but...XN was yearning all the while to be shown the (unnatural) adoration of his N parents.

The culture of valuing each person by status, money and success is PRECISELY the culture of BigBird`s NFOO. I found it bewildering and sickening. It is interesting also that the charismatic and successful ones in XNs NFOO were valued because they ARE charismatic and successful. Theirs is not entirely a performance.

BigBird`s Golden Child brother is nothing special.....he is no big deal...but he was great at making money in his heyday. He is very good at getting "in" with powerful people. He was cold and calculating in Sales...and he made an absolute fortune. NMother just idolised him for that....and BOTH brothers went straight into sales. Neither of them are particularly suited to it to my mind.

In the same way as in Julia`s XNs FOO....this early success was enough for Golden Boy to ride out his glory for ever...because he is now pretty much unemployable, having left a trial of stomped on people in his wake. This does not matter to the NFOO. Or what`s left of their dwindling numbers.

I am beginning to really believe that this set of circumstances would force an N child who is not being put on a pedestal...with all the inherent attachment issues from the N parenting ticking like a time bomb....into covert N-ism.

He (or she of course...) will never be adored for any trait he actually has....unlike the Golden Child....so he watches to see how to be valued...he watches to see how a performance of a false self might get him the recognition he craves. He becomes skilled.....very very skilled at observation....altering his behaviour....mirroring.

The Golden Child does not have to do this...they are worshipped just for being their arrogant selves....the Nparent praises things about them...and they just become unstoppable pompously self centered overt Ns. But this is what makes the covert Ns so deadly...they are putting everything into developing their false self...and investing in that to acquire love and recognition.

Like all these things...it is probably a whole lot more complex than I imagine. There are sure to be exceptions, and alternative routes to covert Nism. But....I really do think in BigBird`s case, this is what happened.

I further think that he adored the first years of our marriage when I was devoted to him alone. He had got the number one spot in somebody`s heart. And then we had kids. And he was very jealous.

Urghhhh  ...I just remembered...when our second daughter was born, BigBird made a giant fuss over whether I would bond with her. She was 2 weeks late...and he told my mother that I was stopping her being born for psychological reasons....and he told me that it would be hard for me to create a relationship since I already had a child. I had no idea what he was talking about, and just dismissed it...I had other things to think about!!!!....and no idea that somebody could only have enough love and attention for one person. I am sure he was remembering the crushing feelings of rejection that he felt.

BigBird has been an absolute shite...he is heartless and dead inside. He is a fearful inadequate shell, full of contradiction and ridiculousness. And.....I don`t know why I am compelled to understand him....but I really do see so much more now. What a terrible mess. What a terribly lonely fearful life. What horrible parents Ns make. Cruel without even trying.

[alatariel]

Jenny, I wasn't trying to criticize you for bringing up this topic, but it really triggered me after my lengthy stupid wallow.  I mean, 3 days is a ridiculous amount of time to keep up a hissy fit b/c your b'day didn't turn out how you wanted.  Sheesh.  I really was acting like a 6 yr old, and it got me to swatting at the "fleas"  Julia mentions. (which is ironic, considering that I recently dealt with real fleas in the house, so I'm jumping at imaginary bites as it is! LOL)


You post did make me think, though, and I just realized that troll is recreating the dynamics of her childhood.  Troll's mom was the adored, spoiled youngest of 6 kids.  Troll is the adored, spoiled youngest of 6 kids.  Troll only has 3 kids, but her younger daughter is being groomed for the position of adored, spoiled youngest child.  The kid really is a demanding, spoiled little brat, which is likely how troll was as a kid.

Dickhead was also the "golden child" as the spoiled youngest sibling.  His sister was the "outsider" and is a covert N herself, and she and dickhead are a gruesome twosome.  She dotes on him to a sickening degree.  After taking care of him all her childhood, and always having him held over her head as the "golden one" by virtue of his gender, you'd think she'd tell him to f**k off.

[BlueSky]

Well, I always thought that exN getting ignored a lot when growing up might be part of his N'ism.  He does appear to be a covert N and was not a 'golden child'.  I'm thinking his sister may have been (the oldest).  Though I know the two brothers did get some notice and praise.  When exN came along, apparently he didn't get treated in similar ways - according to him, anyway.  And I do think its possible. 

His sister is an N, I'm fairly sure, gigantic perfectionist and gets a lot of praise for the things she does.  I've seen her wreak a lot of emotional havoc on the people around her and I was quite surprised to find out how self-centered and dramatic she could be.  We were staying in touch post-divorce for awhile (until I became enemy #1 and she joined ranks with exN).  She once sent ds (who was 5 or 6 at the time) a long letter which was mostly about her and this special trip she took - along with more than 20+ pictures of said trip.  I was thinking, "why would she think ds would be interested in all this."  Was truly odd.   

ExN used to get quite emotional and upset when he thought he was being snubbed by the family.  People rarely came to our state to visit, but they sure visited each other a lot.  It wasn't until the last year together that I started to hear more about his childhood - and it was pitiful.  He's very insecure as well.  He acknowledged once that his relationship with his parents was 'empty' and cried a lot about that - said he'd work on that in therapy.  But of course, a few days later, he decided that there was nothing wrong and that he didn't have anything to work on. 

He'd sometimes get into terrible funks - often because someone was 'better' at something.  He was quite competitive - but if it was obvious that he wasn't going to be really good at something, he'd give up fairly quickly.  I would imagine that was a long-standing pattern with him.  After reading other posts, I would guess he did try hard to excel at things so he'd get some attention, but often did not succeed.  I used to be amazed at how quickly he'd get frustrated, give up, sit down and cry.  Early on, I knew I was the stronger person. 

He did very well at technical, engineering and computer type things.  He did get noticed and got attention for that.  He would constantly be putting down others (including me) in those areas and talk about how much more he knew, etc.  I bought into that and it did a number on my self-esteem (my work was in the computer field then).  And of course, anytime he met someone who could do something better, that'd knock the pins out from under him for a time - until he could manage to inflate his ego again or find some way to schmooze the person and get in good with them.  Was just awful to watch.

I think now that he hid a lot of who he was around me because he was mirroring.  There were things I didn't know he'd done or even liked to do because he didn't do them around me.  An example would be not getting trashed or stoned at parties.  I didn't do that, so he didn't.  I didn't find out until much later that he apparently did weed in high school and liked getting trashed at parties.  Though who knows, he may have done those things to 'fit in'.  I will say, he did really up the alcohol intake once I left.

I don't know who he is and I would bet he doesn't either.

[Legs]

harump. i don't three days is too long for a hissy fit...not at all


legs, sick with some weird thing

[JennyWren]

I don't know who he is and I would bet he doesn't either.

That is exactly what I think about BigBird. I think he lost sight of who he really was in very early childhood...when who he was was criticised...not enough...ignored. While Golden Boy was never wrong...and always adored.

This all makes terrifying sense now. These covert Ns mirror continually and know nothing else.

BigBird is a skilled observer of people...which passed for empathy. He could identify people`s motives, he understood peoples reactions etc because he had spent his life in fearful observation...anxious to fit in and be accepted.

Now he is away from me...he is somebody quite new. I understand this....and yet I can`t get my head round it. How can you be a pretend person and not know who you really are?

[BlueSky]

I think, for an N, the idea of figuring out who you really are is too terrifying to entertain.  And I wonder if there's much of anything really even there.  Anytime exN got close to actually acknowledging something true and authentic, he backed away as fast as he could.  Too scary.

Its likely a fairly scary prospect for anybody to really face who you are with all your imperfections, good and bad.  I think it must be worse for an N - they likely see it as an obliteration of who they are as they'd have to give up all the illusions they'd built a life on.

Anyway, I am thinking of the response exN gave to the Dr. we went to see regarding ds's AS - I had brought up the child porn, the Dr. asked exN if he realized how serious it was and asked him what therapies he had sought, if he journaled, read, joined group therapy....  ExN replied something to the effect of "I've worked on myself and now I like people and like giving parties."   I thought the response creepy at the time, and now there is the layer of his likely mirroring the extroversion of nw, her apparent liking of people and how she liked to give and go to parties. 

My brother saw the two of them out on the town once, they were both seriously trashed.  Very rare for exN to do when he was still with me....but I would bet it was something she did, so he did too.

[Bruna]

Interesting....
N is a covert Narcissist, whereas his younger brother (B1) is an overt narcissist. The third brother (B2) is bipolar, with serious manic episodes, and I think he also has personality disorder (borderline? N himself? Idk).
Their mother is a gambler, their father might have been abusive (?) I am saying this because his mother, MIL, stated that their dad  used corporal punishment. Corporal punishment was common when I was a child ...now was he abusive? Idk.The man died soon after I met my ex. I think he might have been a N.
His first brother (B1) is an overt N, he reeks of shite from a mile, a stupid arrogant sob, who for reasons I will never understand hated my guts. He was his dad's favourite.  B1 treated XN like a slave, but XN adored him nonetheless. His brother exploited xN and I was sorry for him. Their relationship was very weird. XN is a covert N and he tricked and fooled me for years and I never realized it just because he didn't wear his N on his sleeves, but in the end it was all there.
Covert Ns are way more poisonous than overt ones, simply because it is hard to recognize one.
Bruna

[alatariel]

So, it seems like I'm reading that in a lot of cases, being the Golden Child produces an Overt N, and being the Underdog produces a Covert N.  Makes sense. If you're rewarded for your N-ness, you're going to express it loud and clear, but if you're not rewarded for much of anything, you're going to have to be more subtle.

[Imogene]

Interesting topic.

I do feel sorry for these narcissists, actually, because they are my psychological cousins.  I was raised in a narcissistic family of origin, and my brother, the golden child, is a pathological narcissist.  He's more overt now, but I would still define him primarily as covert, and X is very covert (but also the golden child), so I have to refute the going theory here that all non-golden child narcissists are covert.  I think covert narcissism is bred more by the overall family dynamics than by the child's status in the sibling order. 

I had a lot of narcissistic traits when I was young (they improved as I went out in the world and interacted with people), and I still have some covert narcissistic traits.  Whenever we overvalue ourselves, even in a negative way, it's narcissistic, because we are working in a black-and-white reality that blocks out other perspectives.  But that doesn't make us narcissists!  This negativity is also a hallmark feature of depression, for instance.

But enough about our putative narcissism.  It really is awful to be raised in a family where the children have to play roles assigned by a disordered parent.  It is more awful to have drawn the short straw.  I pity the lost chid in BigBird and Julia's ex.  Their behavior started as a coping mechanism, as they instinctively grasped at any proof that they, too, were "special."  But every day they received the tacit and sometimes overt message that they could NEVER be special because they were not the special child.  This is extremely damaging to a child's ego.  For instance, I was uniquely gifted as a poet.  I was ranked in the top five of all graduating creative writers for the year I graduated college.  I could have had a great career ahead of me in academia (poets nearly always end up as university professors), and yet I did not believe in an image of myself as successful ("special"); I could only see myself as a failure.  Anything else felt like a betrayal of my mother's self-fulfilling prophecy.  I suffered a near collapse in the MFA program I started.  A near collapse, because I am not wedded to a false self that doesn't correspond with reality.  Even at my most narcissistic, I was more down-to-earth and introspective than that.  I continued to survive in fits and starts, excellent at most things I undertook as long as I could stand it, until X and I married, and I find myself here, determined not to repeat that miserable cycle.   

But that's just me.  I think the non-golden child who becomes a pathological narcissist FORCES himself to persist in his career (identity of the false self), because his personality has become so rigid that he is so ashamed of the feelings that he is doomed to be an utter failure that he HAS to "act" like a success, even if this charade is killing him.  So midlife covert narcissists implode, literally because they can't take the reality/false self dichotomy another minute. 

NEVERTHELESS, their behavior is inexcusable.  It's worse, in my opinion, than the behavior of the overt narcissist.  I mean, how many of us sensitive, perceptive women would have fallen for an overt narcissist?  A selfish, personality-tone-deaf controller like my former mother-in-law?  No, we had sympathetically aligned ourselves with the lost boys we saw inside these men, viewing ourselves as the one with whom he was most himself.  Of course we were proven right. . . when the narcissist dumped us callously because we knew too much.

[alatariel]

I mean, how many of us sensitive, perceptive women would have fallen for an overt narcissist?  A selfish, personality-tone-deaf controller like my former mother-in-law?

*shamefully raises my hand*

When did you meet troll?  Cuz' you describe her perfectly.  And I've thought and thought about it, and wondered why I'd even bother trying to befriend someone like that, let alone whatever other complications arose.  All I can figure is that I thought she was a refreshing change from dickhead, the covert N.  I didn't figure her Nism was real, I thought it was a facade to cover the lost-little-girl she really hid inside.  Yep, so I did align myself with what I thought I saw, and thought that if I gave her enough sympathy, empathy, and understanding, she could be her "real self" with me, like she couldn't with anyone else.

HA.     Little did I know the act wasn't an act.  She is exactly the arrogant, controlling, selfish bazturd she seems to be.

[JennyWren]

I agree with all that you say Imogene. To be clear...I am not suggesting that ALL covert Ns are produced as a result of not being the Golden Child...merely that it is ONE mechanism whereby the N-ness is pushed under cover.

Nor do I imagine that family order has a necessary role....or that the little one will be the covert non-Golden Child N by default. Indeed...it seems the littlest child can often hold the Golden Child position.

But....it does make sense to me that an N-ish child...who is not the Special One... could become fearful of expressing themselves at all honestly in a family where the Golden Child is all...and you will never measure up. The Golden Child very often can get away with murder...and any glaring inadequacies are glossed over in the sickening adoration the Nparent floods the Golden one with.

As with everything....individual situations will have infinite variables..and infinitely different outcomes...and it would be wrong to generalise. But I am now pretty convinced this is what happened with BigBird...so many pieces of the rotten jigsaw slip safely into place with this hypothesis. BigBird yearned to be SOMEBODY`s.....ANYBODY`s favourite. The number 1 Golden BigBird. He tried with his Nmother...tying himself in knots to bbe whoo she wannted him to bbe...he learnt and perfected mirroring at her knee.....he tried stealing his non-N Dad from his non-N brother...he tried being everything to me, and isolating me form anyone else....when none of these worked...he bailed out into the arms of an obsessive ex-gf...too whom he is...and always was PERFECTION.

From your example again Imogene, however....it is clear that the child has to have the N-ish genetics...or N-ish psychological damage...or both...for the N-ness to be forced inwards and create a Covert N. Just because Nparents do not favour a child does not create an N...it just changes how the N-ness is expressed.

Maybe.

I don`t know....I`m thinking out loud here.

Your comments about us...the partners of these Ns...seeking to support and encourage the lost child within ring tragically true. We tried...but they can not be reached...and the harder we tried.....the more we paid. It lleaves me wondering if there is ANYTHING left of what they COULD have been. And...I suspect the answer is "No".

[JennyWren]

And I've thought and thought about it, and wondered why I'd even bother trying to befriend someone like that, let alone whatever other complications arose.

Alatariel...I hope you won`t mind my saying this.....but when we are accustomed to certain behaviours we tend to accept them as normal. My Dad for example....may or may not be an N....but he IS a SOMETHING. He was emotionally absent at the least....and so....when BigBird ignored my emotions...I didn`t like it...but I was able to cope with it, because of the training of my FOO. I didn`t think anything of it.

Likewise, perhaps for you...at the time....the Troll`s behaviour was within your experience....so you had no reason to be overwhelmed or out of your depth. That doesn`t make you wrong...or foolish...or anything. It just means that you had already had a gutful and normalised it. You have now de-normalised it. (That`s really not a word is it?  )....because you have been able to take a step back and see it.

You should not "Shamefully raise your hand" in my opinion.....you should stick it proudly and angrily into the air and bellow "I DID.....and a thousand gnat bites in the armpits of all those who made me think such behaviour was OK". We all do stuff we regret with hindsight....like marrying idiotic BigBird lookalikes and nurturing them so as they could abuse us more effectively over a period of decades. 

We are all here trying to make sense of this madness. Don`t be ashamed of ANYTHING. You are here facing reality face on to learn from it....and that`s all anyone can do once the NFog has cleared a bit.

[Imogene]

Well, the claim is that long-term psychotherapy can work.  But the narcissist has to want to make change, which I think means that he has to find a meaningful way to deal with the shame.  I think that's the problem.  All those unbearable feelings get projected outward and rationalized so easily--the narcissist is so skilled at this--that I don't know how a therapist could make enough inroad.  Plus, the narcissist is so sensitive to any slight, that he's going to bolt at the mere perception of an inroad.

I do think the lost boy is there, locked in a tower made of lead and steel and concrete.  But who wants to deal with the monster guarding it?

[JennyWren]

Yes....I`ve read various accounts of how long term psychotherapy can work. Again...I guess one can not generalise....but I would imagine an N would have to be behaving totally out of character to approach psychotherapy with honesty and courage. Enormous courage...to even stick a tippy-toe out from all the armour plating.

At the end of the day.....I was always extremely supportive and encouraging of BigBird. I never shamed him, or belittled him, or made him feel unloved. (Though...he says I did make him feel unloved  ) Even when he went completely nuts and started fantasy relationships with girls on other continents...I didn`t shame him, or judge him, or rage at him. I listened to him (blaming me)....reasoned with him very very gently as to how, perhaps he was being unrealistic etc. If he could not bring himself to be honest and open with me....who he knew over decades he could trust implicitly...who had told him over and over that there is nothing you can`t find a way through if you are honest with yourself and others...how would he ever open up to a Psychotherapist....especially considering his utter fear of anything to do with mental health?

Maybe BigBird is more closed minded and set in concrete than most. I just can`t see him asking for help....or trusting anybody to help him. And he would just sit there and lie to them anyhow.

I hope I`m wrong....but if there is anything left of his lost child....it must be pretty much suffocated by the reeking stench of lies and falsehood.

[Julia]

Imogene really expresses so well the roles that Ns play, the pitiful nature of the covert N, that whole post really rings true for me. My XN sure played the pity card to the Nth degree. He was always playing the part of the poor depressed and intimidated man who wanted only to overcome that and be great, or at least grand, and it wasn't an act....he really is depressed. The blueblood image of pillar of society, altruistic, laughing, vibrant people he aspired to was seductive to me, poor Cinderella, who grew up with a cussing jerk of an Ndad walking on eggshells. So I bought into this fairytale of a family and barely noticed that I ended up in the scullery again. His eyes, when they were not in that scornful sneer that you have seen pictures of, were eyes of a depressed puppy dog. There was no other expression, save perhaps anxious hair pulling/twisting disassociation, and yet I loved him and loved the fantasy, while having no real belief in myself, so yes, I willingly made excuses for everything. Actually, when he was sitting around the boasting table with his FOO he would laugh, he would smile, he would come alive.

After he got the second NPD diagnoses, about 3.5 years into his MLC, while I was still having long talks with  him, and still hoping on some level that he would choose to do the work to recover.....I told him it could be done, and would be about as difficult as beating a bad heroin habit, maybe worse. That he would have to work on each irrational thought as it came, with the help of a good therapist, and that then he could beat the depression for good, and be able to love others, his kids included. This was during the time he was so exhausted with the effort of keeping any semblance of a "Dr" "father" or "boyfriend" mask in place that he said he only wanted to be homeless and was hospitalized for 7 months (the 2nd time). Remember, he was unusual in the sense that he never really had a mask, and so he was being honest, about not being able to love the kids, feeling different his whole life, etc.  It was  a way to keep me on the phone, telling the truth, or perhaps the truth, who knows? Even then I was loving..not actually wanting him back, but wanting him to be healthy for his own sake and for the kids' sake.  I urged him to turn to God, I tried to give him some hope that he could be healthy again. The trouble is... his idea of "healthy" is the exact opposite direction. He wants to be S4, a flaming overt N, and he cant figure out how to get there. The part of me that loved him, loved that fantasy, actually almost understands why he is so torn and stuck, someways I feel stuck myself.

OK, now I have to share some more of my recent story, and I hope that it is not alienating for those who find themselves in very different shoes right now. I have always felt a bit set apart here at WoN, beecause my XN does not fit the overt charmer mold at all, even less the Psychopath that some here are with, and is not even the cold hearted covert N at all times either. Well, at least believing that is getting easier for me these days, (6 years after this started), and here is why:

The thing is... although he seems to be exactly the same depressed and yet self-absorbed person as ever, and does not seem to be able to love the girls any more than before.... I have sensed a shift in him, or in me, and I feel like he is really trying to do the best he can. I feel more real respect from him, towards him, than I have in, well ever. THis may come as a surprise to many of you, it has been to me.  I hate what he did to us during the time he was here, and he IS disordered (OK, he has 3 official, mental hospital, NPD diagnoses, and three other verbal ones from PhD therapists who saw he and I professionally). But I no longer hate him; actually I feel mostly grateful for how it has all worked out. He sees them about 2-6 hrs a month and truly does not wish for more, I get the sense that he would wish for less, and certainly he only sees them when it works out for him, refuses to set a regular time.  Usually he manages to ask about 6-12 hours in advance, but he also calls last minute to ask if they are free, or cancels last minute at times.  And yet he tries to keep to a (mostly) weekly visit, and he is not demanding when he asks if he can see them, nor mad  if I say "sorry, we have plans." If they are free, they go with him, and willingly, although with little excitement unless he is shopping for stuff with them.

 Before you think I am going batty or soft, or hoping to get back together with him, (I am not), listen to this....A weekly visit ("even just dinner") was what I told him several times that the therapist recommended, as a minimum, for the girls to not be negatively impacted by his disorder (he accepts his multiple NPD diagnoses, has spent hundreds of hours discussing it while hospitalized). Whatever he could do, regularly, and maintain a good parental attitude throughout was enough I said. So he is doing that; for months he showed up, took them to pizza, and was back within one hour. Now he also takes them to movies. Here is the big thing: he supports us, he pays for everything, and I am a single stay at home Mom to the girls. I only work 2 days a week. That alone is amazing, and perhaps enough for some to think he is not an N. But money is not really his motivator, and he has quite a lot of it, this house is paid for....I am frugal, so there is that to explain his generosity, or it could be his reputation he is protecting. But it feels like he actually wants to "do no harm" to us, finally. I repeatedly  had told him that I would be happy to raise the girls if he would only be generous, that I did worry whether I could do it well and work full time in the kinds of jobs I would likely get after being at home so many years.

So, in my mind, he has come a long way from the early mad days of blaming me for everything that had ever dissapointed him, telling my d (6 yr old) that I might end up begging on street corners. I have come a long way from calling him a Soul Sucking Monster. It took time, and the whole thing makes me wonder about my own mental health,(just a wee bit entitled am I?) but it seems to be working. We are married, we are civil, and the kids are doing fine. I do not have to say that their dad is terrific, I just have to be honest but empathetic, he has his major problems, but seems to have found a way that he can stay in their lives, help me to raise them in whatever way he can. At this point I do not worry about seeing him at their weddings, and I feel more valued as a mother than I ever did during the marriage. Perhaps XN is humbled, perhaps he merely wants to avoid blame for leaving his three girls and wife so alarmingly high and dry, who knows.....I am just relieved to have found my way to here. I wish I could say that things could work out as well for others, but Ns are so very individual. It was just Imogenes comments on the poor little boy inside the covert N got me thinking, and I had to share the rest of my story with you all. Somehow, I got away from being his public enemy #1, the focus of all his blame, and I stayed very polite, and it wasn't too hard to do, since he didn't bleed me dry and was hospitalized forever, twice. Perhaps all this will help someone try to work their way through the mess.

Julia

[Bruna]

Very interesting Julia
You ex husbaNd seems to be one of the few Ns that improve over time, he probably was of a more sensitive nature that allowed him to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune and mature somewhat by facing his PAIN.
It is  not easy for most people, us included to face the pain of spiritual growth, of honesty, forgiveness, selflessness that characterize a healthy mature human being. And I believe that their fault, their flaw lies precisely there: they refuse to grow to face the pain that emotional growth brings. Much more than normal healthy individuals would. The disorder is so complex, so elusive sometimes, YES,  xN reminds me of a big lost, spoiled child with a cruel streak. Unable to see himself, unwilling to see himself, why? because it is easier. He was so cozy in his world that he didn't need to change.
When I ceased being obsessed with wanting to save his soul (that's what he was asking for between the lines) I still loved him, when I left him I still loved him although I didn't wish to go back to him. I loved him simply because he had been my companion for 8 years, I wanted to be civil. He made it impossible. He kept lying to me even when lying was totally pointless.
He never ever ever admitted anything was his fault. Thank God I'm rid of his manipulations. The confusion he brought in my head, the self doubt were quite damaging, And the guilt? OMG the guilt...he used it against me for years, still would if he had a chance.

Bruna

[JennyWren]

Julia....It`s past 1am here....Happy New Year!   ....and I have escaped to bed with the laptop not being in the mindset of partying,,,,and your post has very much heartened me....simply because here is an N who is not getting worse and worse....not stomping all over your lives. You have been so very supportive of him.

I actually feel incredibly sorry for your XN. He sounds so self aware...and that must be very hard on him. The dynamic of his NFOO as you have described...and which is all very familiar....must be crushing to grow up in. The need inherent in any child to be loved and accepted...that basic need is denied. He has shown that he COULD have been someone quite different....by....even in the midst of all that has happened...displaying a certain amount of respect for you. A respect that you have earned.

To watch grown men still leaping about the feet of the Big Ns wanting so much to be noticed and admired is just tragic. In the true sense of the word. No wonder he is...was....always depressed.

When BigBird started down his MLC route....I tried to be supportive of him. In all honesty...he was frightened. He talked of the sensation of "Drums beating in his head"...that he could no longer think....that he could look at things that once he enjoyed...like a beautiful sunset and feel nothing.

This time was just horrible. Clearly he was blaming me...in his N-ish way. I was confused and alarmed to see him this way. He seemed to need me...to need to talk to me...but be repulsed and angered by me at the same time.

He said he did not need professional help. When in desperation, I hit Google...I could see the classic signs of MLC...and some of depression. But he denied it. He said it was just an excuse....and the real cause was that he was lonely because I was such a rubbish wife...and now he had found True Love with his ex-gf.

Looking back.....his ex-gf`s own issues really made the situation so much worse for him. In his confused state...she was offering him all the answers. She had always loved him. She had been looking for him for all these years. She immediately left her husband and dumped 3 foster kids to get together with him.

If I am honest....and really...it is so much easier to be disgusted by him....he was actually very distressed. He sometimes cried and tried to open up to me...but he was always overtaken with this new extreme entitlement ex-gf had ignited in him. All he could think of was negotiating more adoration from me. He couldn`t see that I was sticking by him through thick and thin and trying to help.

His friend pointed this out to him...and that just made him think he had a stronger case to control me more.

Urghhhh...I`m waffling. After your beautiful graceful post Julia. It just strikes me how you were able to support your XN in a very productive way. You were a rock for him. Totally reliable. Not judging him. This must have helped him enormously.

The breaking point for me came when BigBird...at the time living apart after he had become increasingly angry....demanded to come back. Nothing had changed....and he had sought no individual help whatsoever...only gone by himself to couples therapy.

He said he was coming back because he could not afford to run the family home and his rental (which he most definitely COULD afford to do.) So...I suggested...we sell the family home, and get a smaller more affordable place while he sought help...and I would support him emotionally....as I always had since the age of 16....and we would try to work for a future together.

He went ballistic. He said his couples counsellor said it was ridiculous...and you could not possibly work on a marriage if you were not living under the same roof. Perhaps...if she REALLY said that....she would have liked to speak to his daughters....who were terrified I would let their angry entitled Ndad return. Or have considered the fact that this man...who admitted being controlling..was making demands and pressurising his family to do things his way and his way only.

After this, he immediately d&d-ed. He went to the bank and drew money out. He stopped his salary going into our joint account etc. And he demanded I sign his own financial settlement that would have left me with nothing....and a very bleak future indeed. He would pay no maintenance, give me no pension rights, and, once the girls left school...I would have to sell the small home he would provide.

It was a complete whirlwind. But....of course...he had ex-gf waiting in the wings. I think that is the big difference. He had no need to do the difficult task I was suggesting.....of therapy. Ex-gf was the easy option. And he took it.

Actually...that is probably for the best. Better for me to have a clean break from him and his corrosive abuse...that had infected my every thought.

But I had forgotten how broken he was for a while. Maybe ex-gf will be a rock he can grow from. Without children to threaten him. Maybe that`s what he needs. But it was exquisitely painful to suddenly be dumped as he did after I had stood by him through 6-12  months of increasingly weird behaviour.