Is Depression normal?

[seeking happiness]

Is is normal to be depressed, growing up under a N parent? I am so slow to anger, I dont like to get mad as it makes me phyically sick. Is it my anger that I am holding in causing me to feel so depressed? I have been reading about the scapegoat and the golden child, but if there is only one child which one is the child more likely to be the scapegoat or the golden child, or is there a normal here?

Thanks

[CZBZ]

In my experience, yes. It is very normal to be depressed which varies of course. People can be depressed and not realize they are depressed. I think what makes the narcissistic family particularly destructive is that we feel silenced, our true self suppressed because our pareNts were incapable of validating any difference from themselves. We also deal with "learned helplessness" which teaches us we can't escape, we can't change, we don't have choices. This will, inevitably, lead to depression!

We have a marvelous video on depression. It's a lecture by Robert Sapolsky on our forum's blog: The WoN Connection.

I can say that once my anger was allowed expression (I had to 'sqelch' my anger while married because it only escalated the situation), I started feeling more powerful, more capable and worthy of respect.

The concept of a scapegoat and golden child explains typical patterns of behavior in most N-families. I don't think either role is necessarily static. They can switch, depending on who is in their parent's favor at the time. The narcissistic family always has a 'scapegoat' somewhere. The scapegoat role is like having a steam vent on a pressure cooker. You gotta let off the steam of the whole place will blow. The scapegoat concept fits right in with theories on Drama Triangles that apply to all human relationships, not just narcissistic relationships.

I don't know if you're read about Drama Triangles, yet. We have at least one thread stored in The Duck Pond. Once you grasp this concept, it will help you in ALL your relationships. What I do with information like this is magnify the dysfunction ten times (at least) for the narcissistic family. Otherwise, we're stuck in our old thinking that something 'we do' will get us the love we need from narcissists.

One of my sisters was the scapegoat, not me. It was horrible for her and I really hate the fact that I was a child and didn't empathize with her very much. Another sister was the Golden Child (Dad had his favorite; Mom had hers. They couldn't even agree on who the golden child was.  ) I was parentified basically as the nurturer which was only natural since I'm the eldest of five kids.

I have dealt with mild depression from time to time though never serious enough for long-term intervention with antidepressants. I have taught myself what to watch for though and right now I'm in my pj's at 1:30 in the afternoon. However, I'm still recuperating from the holidays and needed a couple days of solitude without anybody asking what's to eat or what provocation would justify strangling a sibling.

My siblings and I struggle with issues from childhood, even yet. They, however, are far crazier than I.  And our parents? Well amazing as it is, they have improved leaps and bounds, having matured into pretty nice old people considering the early years. Dad's 85 now though...that puts a damper on his arrogance.

Hugs,
CZ

[JennyWren]

I think what makes the narcissistic family particularly destructive is that we feel silenced, our true self suppressed because our pareNts were incapable of validating any difference from themselves. We also deal with "learned helplessness" which teaches us we can't escape, we can't change, we don't have choices. This will, inevitably, lead to depression!

Beautifully put as ever CZ. Who wouldn`t feel an element of depression in such circumstances?

The "learned helplessness" is particularly damaging I think...whatever you do....whatever you try makes NO DIFFERENCE. It would be very odd if such fundamental frustration didn`t make a person feel profoundly down.

[seeking happiness]

Thanks all for talking with me on here. I was a little afraid that since you are mostly women you wouldnt help a guy. But I am wrong. Thanks

[Legs]

We don't hate ALL men! It just so happens that most of us had male n's. Not always, of course. We are equal opportunity haters! Welcome aboard and sorry you had to find this place. I had a n sister and know the malevolence that can lurk under a mop of curly blonde hair and big blue eyes.



Legs

[MoreMyself]

Your question brought back so many memories.  When I was 15 I was diagnosed with depression.  The treatment (45 years ago) was counselling.  Thankfully no nasties like Valium, which was all there was (not even sure if it was around then).  My mother is an N and I was the scapegoat.  Due to the family preference for sons (my grandfather only had one son who was a twin with a sister, when they were born he complained he couldn't get a son without getting yet another daughter) I was the obvious scapegoat, which intensified as I reached puberty and turned into a perfectly normal, healthy and attractive teenager.  My mother could not handle this.  Up until the age of 15 I was completely dominated by her.  What I remember was that all I wanted to do was sleep and never wake up.  I didn't eat, I wouldn't go to school.  My mother diagnosed me with a stomach ulcer and took me to the doctor.  Smart doctor got it immediately.  Made my mother take me to counselling.  I went to a counsellor for several months and remember just crying and crying while I was there.  The counsellor seemed to understand I needed to get all the grief out.  Then one day after counselling I walked outside and saw the world in colour again.  I was thinking that my life didn't always have to be the way it was, I would someday get away from my family and lead my own life. 

My mother didn't like the new me of course.  I wouldn't do what she told me to, which was to look think and act like her.  I was even supposed to do my hair like her (a 40 year old woman).  By the time I was 16 she had labelled me 'out of control'.  She sent me to live with my maternal grandparents, who in spite of being uneducated and governed by basic rigid thinking, loved me for myself.  Even to this day my mother can't work out why I misbehaved with her but was so good with my grandparents.  She wouldn't let me live at home for my last year of high school which was horrendous for me because I was taken away from my circle of friends and put into a strange family's house to board and go to another high school.  I was banished.  Best thing that happened to me in the end.  I never suffered another clinical depression although I've had up and down times.  Because now I know that I am in charge of my own decisions, my own life, and even my own hairstyle

I'm the poster girl for being the scapegoat daughter of an N mother as far as a depressive episode goes.

BTW, don't worry about the dominance of women here.  We are unified against one common enemy which has caused us all much harm - narcissism.

[Freezer Burned]

I am so slow to anger, I dont like to get mad as it makes me phyically sick. Is it my anger that I am holding in causing me to feel so depressed?

Seeking:
You probably have been punished for showing anger, so that the feeling of anger now triggers so much anxiety that you become physically ill. Possibly you were punished in such subtle and or passive-aggressive ways that you are not even aware of being punished.

Yes. SUPpressed feelings become DEpressed feelings. Feelings must be EXpressed, but they don't have to be acted out, journaling, singing, are some positive ways to express anger.
Using the energy created by anger to do a dreaded chore that you have been avoiding is a satisfying way to vent anger. Venting can be helpful in the short run, but does not address the root of the problem like journaling can.

[alatariel]

AH, yes, the anger-chores.  Anger has helped me put plastic up around my back porch, clean out my closet, organize my computer stuff, fix the bathroom sink, open up the septic tank, and go through the kids' toys to find stuff to donate.

[pearlsb4swine]

Anger chores!  I like that idea.  Better than anger brownies, anger ice cream, anger cheese doodles........

And Seeking, even though most of us are women, it's Ns we are united against.  N women are every bit as horrible as N men.  I like men personally.   That's what got me hooked on my xnh.  He came packaged as a nice man.  The packaging was deceiving.

[JennyWren]

I have been reading about the scapegoat and the golden child, but if there is only one child which one is the child more likely to be the scapegoat or the golden child, or is there a normal here?

This is an intriguing question. CZ has posted more informatively than I can above.

But I`ve been thinking about this.....and although I haven`t come up with any enlightening thoughts particularly.....it has stuck me while thinking about my in-laws....who are catastrophically N.....that in their family dynamic...over which the all powerful matriarchal mother presides....the oldest child/grandchild is automatically raised above all others as the magnificent and golden one.  ...however....I know lots of others here have had very different experiences with which child gets the dubious honour of being the Golden One.

So....I am thinking that if in families of multiple children there is no rhyme or reason to it....there probably is no set answer as to what happens when there is a single child.

In addition....my N brother-in-law...who is spectacularly N...appears to fluctuate between idolising his daughters...and thinking they are idiots.

Ns are unique I suppose...and so is each set of circumstances. Even if there were a rule....there would be exceptions.

I suppose really....ultimately you hold the answer to your own status in your family.

[Never again]

I don't know either what the rule might be regarding golden child v. scapegoat if there is only one child in the family, but I would suspect that the child is golden as long as he or she *perfectly* reflects what the N parent wants to see. As soon as the child acts like an autonomous individual, well then he/she will immediately be demoted to scapegoat status.

There are lots of children in my family and one very N-ish if not full-blown N parent ("the mother"). We have a roving golden child and a roving scapegoat, i.e. we've all been assigned both roles throughout our lives. We used to be pitted against one another, but we've caught on to her tricks over the years, so now as soon as we see that someone has been demoted, we commiserate with them and reassure them that it has nothing to do with their true character.

It can't be easy being the only child of an N. At least with more children the rot can get spread out a bit more, maybe diluted ...

One of my sisters, who has been given the role of scapegoat more often than the rest of us, calls herself "the escaped goat" 

As regards depression, yes, in my experience it's perfectly normal. Others have explained the reasons above better than I could.

The only men who aren't welcome here are Nasty meN!

Good luck seeking happiness!

[alatariel]

SeekingHappiness, I've had both a male and a female N in my life, so I know it's not limited to one gender to be a complete shite.  I may complain about males a lot, but what I'm really against are meN.

[daisyk9292]

Seeking - Like alatariel and others have said I've experienced narcissism with both genders. Although many if not most on here talk about men, it's far from a male bashing site. It's just N bashing.

My story with depression: I have suffered depression for a long time. Can't say my entire life, but for certain since I was a teen. I have never been clinically diagnosed or taken antidepressants. Like CZ said, many can suffer from depression and not know it. This was me for a very long time.

I was basically okay as a kid, except for like you, I wasn't allowed to express my feelings appropriately and it took it's toll. As a child I was lonely in my family. But I had many friends to spend time with, so that made up for it and I was okay. During the teen years, when I believe you need parents and emotional support the most, was when it hit me.

I had a pretty serious bout in HS. I slept a lot, had no interests, and began to withdrawal socially. This was a slow process from 15-18. My parents didn't notice - they said I was just "lazy" and nobody at my school noticed. Perhaps I hid it well. I don't know. From 18- until my mid 20's I had experienced a lot of traumatic things, by then I had gotten very good and quickly letting them go and pretending it never happened.

In my 30's I got married, had a baby, and overall my depression symptoms went away. I was too busy to even think about it. I had a precious baby to care for, and a husband and a home. I was good at mom, wife and homemaker. I started into fitness, and was proud of being a modern, fit mommy and wife. I had reached a point where, despite all I had gone through when younger I had "made it".

Well, joke was on me! I hadn't made it. I was a wife, a new mom, and lived in a great house. But when my daughter started going to preschool, I had to get out there and interact with other mom's. I felt very awkward, insecure, not good enough, and that I didn't belong. I felt like a fake. I had dark secrets about my past and come from a very dysfunctional family. I'm not good enough, and these people know it and see it.

My daughter is an only child and was diagnosed with mild autism at 3. The goal was to get her out and in social situations as much as possible. This meant playdates and lots of them. I had to put myself out there and try to connect with others and I didn't want to. They'd talk, ask me personal questions I didn't want to answer or know how to answer. I was raised in an environment where if anything happened big or small, "THIS IS NOBODY'S BUISNESS" do NOT tell anybody anything personal. I was trained to hide. Even things that most people would say, "so what" to.

Skip to when my daughter was 5, I had reached a point where I felt isolated and alone being a stay at home mom. I had poor social skills and very few friendships. No REAL friendships. No close family relationships.

I became involved with my first love from HS. Someone who treated me very poorly when we were younger and rejected me. He was back and wanted me back. I fell for it and became emotionally involved very quickly. It also ended very quickly and he did quite a number on me. He gained my trust very quickly, and I found myself compromising my values, my integrity and doing something I never believed I'd ever do.

I had a breakdown, confessed everything to my H, that I was having an EA and that I loved this other man. The other man is a N. He D&D's me very quickly after my confession. I've since learned this is regular thing for him and he used our "first love" history as bait. I was never anything to him at all. Just another object.

It's been 4 yrs now. The first year after it happened I was shell shocked, but I stayed strong and held on tight. I continued to do everything I had done before just with severe emotional pain attached. But 3 years ago I reached a point where I could no longer hold on.  I spent the majority of my days in bed, for about 8 months. I functioned only when I needed to. Got daughter off to school, went back to school myself and went to class and did assignments. But whenever I could I just stayed in bed. I lost interest in everything that had interested me. Cooking, baking, shopping, exercising. I couldn't watch TV, get through a movie, or listen to the radio. Everything and anything reminded me of the N who broke my heart and crushed my soul.

Then in therapy I had to begin to piece together how I had gotten to this point. My FOO, my first love relationship, my marriage, how all of my experiences lead one into another. Had my circumstances growing up been different I don't know that I'd be a person who suffers from depression. But it was what it was, and so now I am.

I work at managing it. It's gotten better. I have good days, sometimes a string of them. But I still have dark ones too.

[pearlsb4swine]

Daisy,
I was very struck by the pain in your post.   I am surprised with that history that you have never been diagnosed with depression and never been on antidepressants.  I know you are in therapy.  Have you ever discussed trying an antidepressant with your therapist? 

I have been where you are, and antidepressants were a miracle for me.   Very, very helpful.  Life does not have to be quite this hard for you.  I would strongly encourage you to see a doctor, or your primary care provider, and tell them how you are feeling. 

Pearls

[daisyk9292]

Hi Pearls -

I'm getting close to that point. Because of the past week I've had. I accomplished nothing and have been in the "dark hole" all week. I do know now, it's PMS related and I get the worst at that time. Although this week was particularly horrible.

I had told my therapist that I did not want to take meds. She agreed that it's great for me to want to manage it without. I'm honestly not intending to be a martyr here and choose to suffer instead of feeling better.

I just haven't been thoroughly convinced meds is the only option. I have an arsenal of weapons I could use to fight depression, but I don't use them! A large supply of vitamins, access to a healthy diet, a home gym with enough exercise equipment, and I've learned a supposedly very effective meditation technique. The problem? I DON'T USE OR DO THESE THINGS CONSISTENTLY!

I know so many people who have been on antidepressants, anti-anxiety, etc. meds for YEARS. I also know these people do not do any kind of therapy. I believe it's very irresponsible for our health care system to allow patients to take the pills without any requirement for therapy. I thought the goal was to eventually get off the meds, not use them as "happy pills forever.

So I'm afraid of them making me feel so much better I just quit therapy and rely on them. I'm also afraid of side effects. I've also heard it's a constant for some to always find the right dosage, and always getting adjustments etc.

But maybe if I DO start taking meds, it will help to actually use the other tools I have available to manage the disease then gradually work my way off the meds?

I don't know. I really appreciate your response though. I'm definitely going to give it some more thought.

Daisy

[alatariel]

You're right, Daisy, in that meds are intended to be a tool to help you climb out of the abyss and begin using the other tools in the box.  Some ppl find that meds are a tool they want to use all their lives, some don't.  I do agree that it's irresponsible to use these meds w/o supervision, b/c it's hard to tell for yourself if they're always working correctly.  You need to check with someone objective who can assess that.  Sometimes that someone can just be your partner or a good friend, though.

I took an allergy med that I had to stop taking after a month, b/c it made me angry as a side effect.  Since there isn't another adult in my home, it was actually the troll who pointed it out to me, that I'd been continually aggressively b!tchy, and then I realized for myself that I was constantly aggressive and angry.  That led me to believe that some other adult should be aware when we take meds that can affect our personalities, so they can alert us to changes we might not notice.

I've been on and off meds for depression and anxiety, and the only difference I really noticed was in the side effects.  Which either means I've never been on the right med, or that meds aren't the right tool for me, or that when I was on the meds I still had an N in my life and having an N was the problem all along. 

What I've been through in the last 6 months would resemble depression to most ppl, yet it's not like anything I've ever felt before when I was dx'd with depression.  I've actually become less zombie-like.  More focused, and occasionally more hopeful that I might be able to have a life.  I've been more introspective, and more willing to work on my issues.  I've been quicker to recognize potential N's and avoid them.  I'm learning to trust my instincts.

So what's different now?  Lack of an N in my daily life and finding WoN and being validated for the first time ever.

Maybe meds would enable you to start using your other tools and you could eventually stop using the meds.  With the right med and the right circumstances, it can help correct a possible chemical imbalance.

[CZBZ]

Hi Daisy!

Whether to take medication or not is purely personal. I sympathize with both sides of the debate on this topic.

In a course I took on The Psychology of Women, the professor (she had her doctorate) told us that should our depression last longer than two weeks, we could be at higher risk of developing a clinical depression. That advice has stuck with me and I pay attention to signs of depression. Two weeks is normal. We can feel down-in-the-dumps, hopeless, life-is-meaningless, powerless and victimie for two weeks and after that, get thy butt to a doctor.

If you need medication to prevent yourself from making bad decisions in your life, take the medication. If you've been struggling with depression for longer than two weeks and you can't stick with your resolutions to use the gym, eat right, sleep right, and do everything perfectly right to ward off the depression bug, well...maybe depression is making it too hard to do the things you need to do.

I know from taking Prozac that it does not make you so happy that you stop going to therapy. It just helps you get to the appointments on time.  You do not have to stay on antidepressants forever...just long enough to restore balance in your life and when you feel you can cope on your own, stop taking the medication (according to your Dr.'s advice). There are numerous antidepressants on the market.

I agree with you about handing out antidepressants without encouraging people to seek counseling. Because mood disorders run in my family, quite a few people in my family are taking mood stabilizers (for bipolar). They didn't turn into happy campers though...they were simply better able to manage their lives.

Just wanted to throw in my two cents. Depression can ruin people's lives if it's untreated. Yes, there are side effects but there are terrible side effects to not being treated, too. 


Hugs,
CZ

[Imogene]

Daisy,
I started taking Cymbalta almost a year ago.  I have certainly suffered from low level depression for years, but I was also extremely anxious.  I had all the same feelings you have about the meds, and if X's leaving hadn't put me in such dire straights, I probably would not have tried them.  But I had to get a handle on my anxiety, so I did some research and asked my primary care physician to prescribe Cymbalta.  She was happy to prescribe and let me do the fine-tuning on my own, for which I am grateful, because that saved me the bother of finding a psychiatrist. 

What antidepressants did for me is they ramped down my anxiety considerably.  I am a worst case scenario imaginer, and I just didn't need that mentality hanging over me, preventing me from taking small steps forward.  As you know, the small steps are what lead to bigger achievements over time--if your depression isn't clinical, it can be triggered by avoiding those small steps.   

What I would seriously recommend is that you do some research and discuss this with your therapist.  Psychologists generally don't bring up medication, but they will discuss the pros and cons if you are wanting to explore this avenue.  They will probably not make any recommendation, except to steer you toward a good psychiatrist. 

There is no shame in taking the meds.  In fact, I am very proud of myself for doing so.  I was taking Ambien every night to sleep, and I don't need it anymore.  I feel that my immune system is stronger.  I see hope for the future sometimes.  And it's not that you feel so different that there is some miraculous transformation, so if you are worried about losing yourself, that is an unfounded fear, I think.  My experience was that I make more typos than I used to, because I am less hypervigilant.  And the first month or so I was HYPER.  But that's it for me. 

[pearlsb4swine]

Hi Daisy,
CZ is so right--this is a very personal thing, and thank you for being gracious about me jumping in with my opinion.  I had a very good result from meds, and I just hate to see people suffer.  Depression is dangerous--people die from it. 
And it also can have negative effects on people around us. 

I know there are other things that also work, but as has already been noted, the problem is getting yourself to do it when you are so depressed you can't get out of bed.  I just hope you are not telling yourself that medication is only justifiable when all other measures have failed.  Or that it is cheating, or the path of weakness, or a crutch.  Or that you "should" be able to heal yourself without meds.  You're not "shoulding" all over yourself, are you?

Life is hard.  Life hands out challenges right and left, like having to deal with Ns.  I think it's important not to underestimate the profound negative effect these experiences have on our brain chemistry, and not to expect so much out of ourselves as far as coping.

Depression kills people.  Nice people, good people, people the world needs.

OK, now I will try mightily to shut up.   

Pearls

[alatariel]

I look at depression/anxiety/what-have-you meds like this:

If you were a Type II diabetic, would you beat yourself up for using insulin in conjunction with diet and exercise to manage your condition?  Hopefully, you'd eventually be able to stop using the insulin except when you can't balance your condition any other way.

[Imogene]

alatariel,
Well, true, but there are also big clinical studies out there that show antidepressants to be no more successful than the kind of self-help measures Daisy talks about.  I also like to make a distinction between situational depression and biochemical depression, though what I've been reading lately about the brain says that the difference isn't as big as I'd like it to be.

Antidepressants cut out some of the obstacles to getting better, but they are not a shortcut.  You still have to put in the time and get down in the trenches. 

[alatariel]

Nope, meds aren't a shortcut to "healthy".  Especially when you account for the fact that it takes most of them 6 weeks to get fully functional, and then finding out what your dosage is, or which med is right for you...

There are studies demonstrating both the effectiveness and ineffectiveness of those meds, everyone has to make the decision for themselves.  I think the meds ALONE aren't going to do a damn thing.  They need to be used as a stepping stone to get yourself in a position to take advantage of the rest of the tools, and they need to be used with the guidance of someone who is willing to look at the whole picture.  In the US, we have very inadequate oversight due to overworked Dr's, pressure from drug and insurance co's to prescribe and to take very little time with the patient, and patient non-compliance.

We need to stop the "take 2 of these and call me in the morning" routines.

[Freezer Burned]

A few years ago I decided I needed an antidepressant, but every time I was about to call a therapist, there was a recall of some antidepressant on TV. That happened 3 times, and I just got frightened off. If I got that desperate in the future, I would ask for something that has been around for decades, something tried and true. I wouldn't want to be used for a guinea pig when I was already barely hanging on.

When I feel too sad to live, I take 5-HTP made from a bean, from the health food store, then the sadness is bearable. It is officially called a food supplement, it isn't a med. At my lowest I was taking it every day, for a while I forgot all about it, now I take it occasionally, maybe once a month. It works in a few minutes, so you can take it just on the days needed.

[Rosemary]

Freezer i wonder if they sell that in U.K.?sounds good if it works .

[daisyk9292]

You guys are all the best. I cant tell you how much I appreciate the input. I've been reading and don't have a lot of time to respond. But want you all to know I'm considering all that's been said.

My daughter invited 3 friends over after school today. So far I've been told, "You're very pretty", "You're a really good cook", and "You're 42?! You look 25!!"

Now that's some good antidepressants!!! hahahaha!  Oh if only it would last and it wasn't from flighty little 9 year old girls!!