so, what still bugs you about N-behavior?

[inflatedheart]

"Your chances of \'finally\' getting it right are vanishingly small. At the end of the day the narcissist will walk free and you will remain in chains, not the other way round."
wow InflatedHeart
this is a powerful footer

Thank you!! I found it in an article. I have it saved somewhere on my computer if you're interested, I'll just have to dig around for it! hah! I also have this posted on my bathroom mirror. It is a great reminder!

[Chime]

a great reminder indeed!
if you get a chance -- no rush
I would love to read it
 
seems like I practically live on books lately
cheers!
 
Chime

[inflatedheart]

Chime: I think it got it here when I was first starting to read about Narcissism.

http://peterfox.com.au/npd.htm

[lavender]

In Australia "****" is simply another way of pointing/describing out a guy who is usually of European descent...it is almost never a derogatory term. (it is a nic-name the STBXNH has had for as long as I can remember)


maybe we need to remember not to get so easily offended as we are a group from far and wide...

here, Fanny is slang for a ladies/girls "front-bottom"  ...LOL...
(and thongs go on feet not bottoms!)

[inflatedheart]

In Australia "****" is simply another way of pointing/describing out a guy who is usually of European descent...it is almost never a derogatory term. (it is a nic-name the STBXNH has had for as long as I can remember)


maybe we need to remember not to get so easily offended as we are a group from far and wide...

here, Fanny is slang for a ladies/girls "front-bottom"  ...LOL...
(and thongs go on feet not bottoms!)

Lavender,

Racism an issue that is prevalent on a global scale and for this to be a welcoming, thoughtful community we need to respect everyone's experiences including those who may or may not be immediately present. I think it is also incredibly rude to dismiss a racist term as something that I was only personally offended by and therefore okay to ignore. While I am not part of the group that this term targets, I think it is a legitimate issue considering it has been used/is used to describe and justify the degradation, enslavement, pain, and torture of non-White communities for centuries. Furthermore, it is very easy to just say, "Oh, don't get so offended" rather than actually take the time to consider how this may have an impact on other people beyond our immediate scope. I was simply asking that we be more considerate of the language that we use here.

[CZBZ]

"...in contemporary Australia, the term "****" may, in certain contexts, be viewed as a "nickname" rather than a pejorative term- akin to the nicknames ascribed within Australian English to other historically significant cultural groupings such as the English (nicknamed Poms), the Americans (nicknamed Yanks) and New Zealanders (nicknamed Kiwis)." ~Wikipedia link

Also, "The **** Boy" is an Australian movie (2000) having grossed over $11,000,000 at the box office. That might reflect more popular use of the nickname but it sounds like its best to be in Australia if you do. Or the usa. I had never heard of the nickname or the movie. 

In the movie, "The Australian Chrysler Valiant range of cars were often and sometimes still referred to as "**** Chariots" or "The Greek Mercedes."

I appreciate being notified if there are derogatory or offensive messages on WoN. I also appreciate it when members give one another the benefit of the doubt. WoN doesn't attract insensitive people so if a comment or nickname is bothersome, just ask.  Don't assume.

We've encountered this language problem before, now that we have members from other countries besides the US. We have censored a few words commonly used in the US but perhaps it would be a good idea to collect a list of particularly offensive words commonly used in other countries, too?


Hugs,
CZ

[Never again]

We have censored a few words commonly used in the US but perhaps it would be a good idea to collect a list of particularly offensive words commonly used in other countries, too?

That sounds like a good idea. And the w- word would have to be on it, in my opinion. It really is very offensive in Europe. I had no idea it had a different meaning Down Under.

Now I'm worried about Gobi Shiite, damnation. A Shiite muslim from the Gobi desert could be offended, I guess, even though the term actually developed just as a way to avoid saying, well, gobshite (= idiot, mouth full of crap, etc.), with no bearing whatsoever on Shiites, people from the Gobi region or anyone or anything vaguely related. Anyway, I'd better just think up another rude moniker for the bazturd.

[Snowbird]

Furthermore, it is very easy to just say, "Oh, don't get so offended" rather than actually take the time to consider how this may have an impact ....

Isn't this just the sort of way the Ns in our lives treat us? "You're too easily offended"; "You're too sensitive"...

I don't think that is how anyone expects to be treated when they come here, so this is a good discussion.

[alatariel]

Using those kinds of words hurt other people who may or may not be immediately present in our lives and perpetuates the same behaviors and attitudes that allow Ns to walk all over us. It denies people the right to dignity and human worth.

This makes me wonder if any of us should be using any derogatory names for the N's, at all.  I mean, isn't the idea of using a derogatory name to make someone "less than"?  And how far do we take this?  I'm sure "Shiite"  used derogatorily would be offensive to a Muslim, and there are ppl on this board who have a "dick", so that should rule out "dickhead".  I also happen to like Big Bird, the actual Muppet, and Hobbits have long been a favorite mythical species of mine...  But I'm not offended when those words are used to refer to N's, either.

IDK, how far do you go before every single word everyone says is offensive to someone?  I do agree that racial epithets are inappropriate, but the book "Huckleberry Finn" has been banned from schools and libraries b/c of the "N-word".  I think we need to look at context, as well as local meanings.

[alatariel]

And, back OT, speaking of "bugs", one more thing that really bugs me are the "fleas" the N's leave us with.  I think the fleas are harder to get rid of than the N's themselves.  I think I need some psychological version of "Frontline" or "Advantage" to kill the fleas and prevent me from getting new ones.  Heck, those products interrupt the life-cycle of actual fleas, think that would work on the psychological fleas?

[Never again]

  I think we need to look at context, as well as local meanings.

I think so too and would hate to see the end of the name-calling in general. But my own choice unfortunately does refer to a specific ethnic/religious group, so I've decided it has to go.

[JennyWren]

My opinion...for what it`s worth  ...is it`s all about context.

I know coloured guys who routinely call one another the "N" word out of fondness...but if some nasty little biggot ran out of the dung heap and yelled "N" at those same guys....they would happily deck him. Same word from a different mouth.

I think "bad" words are afforded too much power. If you say a word is offensive...you give it power over you. If you draw a line in the sand...you give spiteful folks a horrible weapon to hurl at you. They are going to think their nasty thoughts whatever you do.

I believe it is all about what is in your heart when a word is said that counts. And....sadly...if you banned some people from uttering a single syllable....their heart would still be full of stinking hate. Those are the people who should be taken to task.

On the other hand...I have to say....Lavender`s post held no offense for me......even though in the UK the "W" word is generally a big No-No....the tone and the context were not uncomfortable.

Of course there are going to be words that are offensive in one country...while perfectly innocent in another. I have certainly learnt from this thread that I have been using a certain word that has an entirely different meaning in the US than here....and it is the very word the girls insist their Ndad is called.

And...of course...then there are words which are just downright filthy.

We all let off steam at our Ns here....and I don`t think ANY one of us would want to offend anyone else. I really don`t. And...if I have done so...please know that I am sorry. 

[Legs]

Maybe we should let us all fight it out.....someone says something someone else doesn't like, then they have to say why, and then everyone gets their minds broadened. Or we have a flame way. Personally, I don't want to be censored (Oh, Legs! Surely not YOU!) and if I do offend someone, they can let me know nicely without getting their knickers in a twist and I'll use #$@ from then on in the appropriate spot. I like the way WoN "changes" s-l-u-t into sput, etc and I love the many versions of the eff word that I have learned here. We are a community of grownups and I think surely we can all learn new things.

We are also a community of cultures and we have to learn a world view of things and not close ourselves into little closets. We should not deliberately hurt someone's feelings and I have really never seen any of that on this board.

Times change and words change...my 21 year old niece and her friends call each other COOTER which is a kind of backwoods southern term for the female sex organ and they give the sordid sign just like we gave the peace sign in the 60's-70's, so even though I was a little shocked the first time I saw that, it was just female friend to female friend and as I gather, it sort of means power to the pu$$y or "Girl Power".

In my time, girls (and I mean university educated, well advantaged girls that have lived all over the world..these are not some white trash oilfield girls) would NEVER have referred to their nether parts in casual conversation or with such apparent casualness, but today they do.


We have to go with the flow and educate each other rather than sitting trembling at our keyboard wondering whether we should type this or that. I like it much more when we can say what we want, someone can disagree civilly and explain why and then we make a decision to be sensitive or to explain why that word has no power in our culture. I think we could all learn a lot.

Legs, all for learning the current lingo

[JennyWren]

I have to say.....In all the time I have been posting on WoN...and reading here...I have NEVER felt in the least bit offended by anything anyone has said.

And the posts that are nearest to the edge...and often twenty steps over it  are the ones which blow the cobwebs away. I actually do laugh out loud reading the things written here. 

[Legs]

I second that, Jenny. Sometimes I sit here in shocked silence for a second thinking, Did I just read what I READ????????? And then I burst out laughing.....I want to keep the freshness here and I am NOT opposed to anyone being offended by something and explaining it to us and then we will have to take a different tack


Legs, who doesn't want to laugh at someone else's expense unless that person is a horse's @$$ like Lucifer

[tango3]

FWIW being from the UK I have a golliwog.  It sits on top of some of my books on the bookshelf and I'm very fond of it.  My daughter is a lesbian, I don't take offense at the various terms - they are just words.  I have black friends, I have gay friends, I have puerto rican friends, mexican friends, we are all just people, not matter our ethnicity, our sexual orientation.  I'm English living in the US - I get lots of comments from Americans about the English   Doesn't bother me at all and I can give back as good as I get - revolution?????  WHAT revolution?  LOL  I make jokes that there are so many English people living in the US that it's our plot to retake our colonies   What I find more offensive than anything is people (like Toad - and I hope the amphibians of the world don't protest) who pretend to be broadminded and politically correct, when in fact they are the most narrow minded, prejudiced people who ever walked the earth.

[inflatedheart]

Legs,

This is not about censorship. I am not saying ban words nor can/should anyone be barred from using them. If you do use some words, then there is always a possibility that your use of that word will be challenged or found offensive by members/guests. That also means taking responsibility for the words we use. All I was saying is that I would like to see members be more thoughtful about the words they use and when a word is offensive to another, really LISTEN.  It is not okay in my opinion to use triggering language in this community simply because it my personal right to do so. If someone told me that a word I used was painful, I would work to find a word that was more suitable or seek out the information I needed to make a decision rather than just shutting the other person down. I have a great amount of respect for the healing that occurs here and I cherish the strength we find in each other. In my opinion, for a community to be healing, we ALL must flex a little. We ALL must give a little. Sometimes that means changing so we can create the kind of community we all need to heal.

[Chime]

If someone told me that a word I used was painful, I would work to find a word that was more suitable

this is a great point!
 
Chime

[lavender]

but surely it is censorship if I can't call "him" the same name we commonly call him here at home (in Aus)?

~political correctness has gone mad and people are so darn scared of offending someone that they won't even say what they mean anymore~

[CZBZ]

Good Morning, World!

We organized this forum in 2005 with a vast majority of members living in the US. At this point, our statistics behind-the-scenes tell us we have readers all over the world. Don't worry. Statistics don't tell us what color your kitchen draperies are, and we don't know if you've clipped your grass properly or not; but we do know that WoN has become a global community.  Bearing this in mind, we will encounter language problems, such as we're discussing today.

The meaning of specific words is an important concern now that the Internet brings our world together. My Narcissistic Continuum blog had a legal disclaimer to cover my arse in the event my words are rude, crude, lewd or boo'ed when translated in other countries. I have naively written things that were offensive tho most readers realized there was no 'ill will' or 'mal intent' on the part of this Yankee Woman.

Global communication on a personal level is a learning curve for everyone. We aren't politicians or ambassadors. We're regular people making connections and communicating internationally! These are miraculous times, my friends and we can count ourselves lucky that we know people from all over the world while sitting at our computers wearing nothing but slippers and pajamas.  At least I hope WoN members are wearing pajamas. Don't tell me if you type nekkid.

So now our consciousness has been raised about the W-word (comparable to the N-word which is censored on WoN). I am sure that no one on this forum would intentionally use words that insulted people who have already been scapegoated by society. The fact that the W-word is extremely offensive in the U.K. is enough reason to avoid using this word.

On WoN, we "practice good faith principles for a growth-fostering community" which means we take everyone's best interests into consideration 

The following excerpt is our stance on 'swear/crude' words which will hopefully increase people's awareness about why these words are censored on WoN. Our individual freedom to use crude language is secondary to the community's need for safe harbor. If you really need to swear and swear loudly, go to your bathroom and shut the door, turn on the shower and let 'er rip. 

If there are any words that are offensive in your country, wherever 'you' may live, please email me or continue this discussion: wonmanagers@yahoo.com

Hugs all,
CZ

Excerpted from Forum Decorum (located at the bottom of our main page):

"WoN strives to protect our Freedom of Speech as much as possible. Being able to express ourselves is essential to healing. That's why it might seem counterproductive to censor ourselves, or have our words censored by forum moderators. Anyone involved in recovery work, understands the power of repressed emotions finally allowed expression. Sometimes, the only word that says it best, is a swear word. There are those circumstances when writing "For Pete's Sakes" doesn't quite make our point.

That is why we aren't too ornery about occasional swear words on WoN. You can write "Damn" for example; but you can't write "cluck." Or "clucker". Or "clucking". If you do, our barnyard censoring machine will transform your language into something more appropriate. Like Moo. Or Meow.

WHY do you have to censor my words?? I'm finally free to say what I feel!

Most of us feel immediate relief when using descriptively naughty language. Even though an occasional swear word is not overly offensive, please keep in mind that WoN members have suffered varying degrees of verbal abuse. For that reason, we do not allow the F-word to be used by anyone on this message board. Even using the F-word in titles may trigger panic attacks in vulnerable peers.

We intend WoN to be a safe and mutually supportive community. No one has an intimate relationship with a narcissist without suffering emotional abuse of some kind. So be kind. Don't swear.
     
However, CONTEXT is key. Consider this situation:

If you write, "She just took me for a couple hundred thousand dollars! What an ass she is!" Well, considering your situation, this descriptor is perfectly understandable and your peers probably wouldn't complain. Most likely, they think you're being a little TOO nice.

BUT, if you start broadcasting nasty language towards fellow board members such as, "Your post really made me mad! YOU are such an ASS!" well, that is not understandable nor acceptable. It's all in the context.

"In making obscenity, indecency, and profanity determinations, context is key. The FCC staff must analyze what was actually aired, the meaning of what was aired, and the context in which it was aired." ~The FCC's Consumer Facts on "Obscene, Indecent and Profane Broadcasts" http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/obscene.html "

[CZBZ]

Wikipedia's List of Ethnic Slurs

This was a very enlightening list! For example, my mother is a Southern belle, my father is from the west (a Yankee) so we have joked about the never-ending Confederate war between them. After reading this list of ethnic slurs, I encountered this usage for Yank: "Yank [is] shortened form of Yankee; English-speaking countries outside the United States may use it as a derogatory term for Americans." So I suppose in certain situations, Yank could be viewed as an insult.

We can use a list like this as a guideline for terms that might hinder or even destroy communication in our community.


Hugs,
CZ

[alatariel]

but surely it is censorship if I can't call "him" the same name we commonly call him here at home (in Aus)?

~political correctness has gone mad and people are so darn scared of offending someone that they won't even say what they mean anymore~

While I do agree that nasty words have power, are we really supposed to refrain from using words we didn't even know were offensive, like "Monday", "oreo", "jock" or "hun"?  (the only Hun I'm familiar with is Attila the Hun, and I think we can all agree he wasn't a nice person)

[Legs]

I'd rather take my chances, say what I want to say, if someone doesn't like it then they can tell me why and depending upon (probably) the way they say their piece, I might either stop it or leave. I don't want a list of words I can or cannot say because cheeze, ......see? Just that might offend someone.


And plus we all have different feeling about words....my bast and longest pal is a lesbian and you can bet your boots that things like butch and fem have crept into my vocabulary and they are not insults, they are descriptive terms but I can see how some people might not like it. Some people don't like it when I use the term Black. Apparently the polite term is now African American. <sigh> It's hard to keep up with what different races want to be called. In my lifetime, some local people have wanted to be called:

1. Spanish
2. Mexican
3. Chicana
4. Hispanic
5. Latino/Latina

so that's a new word every ten years.


So, I'll pay my money and I'll take my chance. If I offend someone, chances are that's just the way I talk, and they'll have to educate me on why I shouldn't talk that way.....and then we'll have a rational discussion like we always do here on WoN. This probably won't be the last time we have this discussion, and I think it's enlightening to hear what other cultures say and how things change over time.



Legs

[talia]

Hi everyone,

I'm writing today from my heart because I am saddened. My dear friend, CZ, has worked very hard to create this wonderful forum and it is out of respect and love that I write. I know how hard she's worked over the years, learning from experience along the way, finding what works and what doesn't work to create as safe environment as possible for everyone. I've been around for awhile and can honestly say that I feel this is one of the best support forums to be found on the internet. It's free for "us" members.. CZ bears the cost of this forum. I think most of you would agree, that this is a pretty liberal forum. Could I please ask you, if you haven't already, to read what she has posted?


WoN strives to protect our Freedom of Speech as much as possible

I think for those of you that have been around for awhile have found this to be true. CZ made the decision that the use of one word should be avoided and explained why. She absolutely knows there was no malice intended,however, after careful consideration made her decision. Might we afford her some respect in her judgement based on her experience? Understanding that she has the best interest of the forum as a whole at heart?

No matter where you live in the world there are certain rules,laws etc. that one has to abide by, whether in agreement or not. This environment is no different. There has to be certain limits on the freedom of speech because it serves this community as a whole best. It's been explained why and it came about, again, from learning from experience what works and what doesn't work.

I'm asking you to reflect on your experience here and consider the history of your experience. Personally, I have been treated with respect and haven't felt so restricted that I couldn't express myself. I've been treated fairly, my opinions considered when in disagreement. I can say with complete confidence that I expect that will not change.

I ask you to consider/read  CZ's comments again, the diplomacy and humour in which they were delivered and to use your good judgement with regards to the context in which they were given.

I am attached to this forum. It has been valuable to me. I can live with the guidelines. All of us, including me, are guests of this forum which exists because of one woman's sincere dedication and who has one of the kindest hearts I have come to know. I trust her judgement and I think that for those who have been here for awhile have learned this as well.

Thank-you, CZ, for all your hard work and for providing this safe haven that I have returned to time and time again over the years.

With respect to all of you,
talia