What are your goals for therapy?

[Imogene]

I've been journaling about this, but I wanted to come over here and get a wider response.  In my last therapy session, my therapist told me she thinks I am grounded enough to stop dwelling on the fact that X is a "narcissistic jerk" and to move forward with more difficult avenues of self-exploration.  One thing she wanted to explore was whether I produce a defensive reaction in people and why that is.  I already know she feels that I push people away, because I view interpersonal relationships as threatening. 

Leaving aside the issue that I'm not ready to stop dwelling on the narcissist jerk--because I have you guys here to listen--I am curious as to what those of you in therapy hope to accomplish from it.  I am not sure I'm in therapy to have fulfilling human relationships.  I certainly want to be more productive and creative, less inclined to negative responses, more able to see the innocence and kindness in others.  But when she said that, I wonder if I ever want to get close to anyone, really.  I am close to my daughter and my best friend, and I have a few other friends whom I enjoy seeing, but I'm not sure I want more than that.  Am I just being defensive?  Or have I been pretending to equate intimacy with mental health just to comply with what I think my therapist wants?

I'm very confused right now.  I guess any related feedback would be helpful.

[alatariel]

If you are content with the number of close relationships you have, and don't want more intimacy with more ppl, what's wrong with that?

As for me, I'd like to STOP seeing the innocence and kindness in others and realize that too many ppl are just plain jerks and are always and only looking out for number one.  That only led me into being hurt by N's.  My new theory is "more armor! higher walls! fewer relationships!"

[Chime]

I am still a newbie in all of this
so I am certainly still in the identifying phase --
the what the #$%% just happened phase.
the OMG my therapist just named it
and he IS a cluster B dementor!
and I can exhale
at least a little bit, but then I question it all and feel like I have to start over phase
 
I think you should continue in whatever phase you need to
until you feel ready to move on to something else.
I think it's awesome though, that your therapist thinks you're ready!  Good on you!

Chime
ps - my therapist says her goal is to make herself superfluous, but at my pace.  My goal is to extract my self, my identity from this mess, and despite it all try to keep the aspects of myself that I like (but that no doubt attracted the Cluster B [is there a cluster F?]  to me), but keep them with better boundaries.

[pearlsb4swine]

Imogene, I need to really think about this.....    because I am trying to move on with my life, and not have my whole life be about what this monster did to me.  But, I also think I have issues with pushing people away....and feeling so overwhelmed with life.  And I feel this panic over how long it's taking me.  I spent 30 years married to an N, and now I feel like I better make hay while the sun shines. 

I guess my goals for therapy are, like Chime says.....make better boundaries.  I want to make some contribution to the world.....not in a grandiose way, but to just be of some use to others.  Not waste the gifts I have been given.  Be a better mother, daughter, sister, friend, employee......

Oh, and not be fat, miserable and poor.  Have my closets cleaned out.  Figure out what I really want.  Have some fun. 

Now I am getting into what I want out of life....but it's the same thing really, for me.   

Joy, the pursuit of.

Pearls

[Chime]

not have my whole life be about what this monster did to me.  I

yes, right
exactly!
not being defined by them

Chime

[Never again]

My goal when I started therapy a year ago was to find out what about me had allowed me to remain in such a dysfunctional relationship for six years. I was very shocked at myself, considering I had done four years of excellent therapy in my twenties (the FOO stuff) and have been doing on-and-off brief bouts of therapy, counselling, personal-growth workshops, courses, group work, etc. etc. for the last ten years through my training and continuing training as a counsellor. I thought I was pretty solid when I met him.

So I got the answer. I was pretty solid, certainly a lot more solid than twenty years ago (I can only thank my lucky stars that I didn't meet him or someone like him then - I don't think I would have survived it). But I still had a *massive* hole underneath the solidity waiting patiently all those years to be filled with love (the love I didn't get from my N? mother, of course). When he presented himself to me as the filling for that hole, I fell for it and couldn't-wouldn't-couldn't give him up no matter how rotten he turned out to be. As I've written elsewhere here, I also had no idea that such rotten eggs actually exist in the world.

During the answering of that question, other goals emerged, and they are the reason I'm still going to therapy. In particular, I need to become more 'aggressive'. I mean aggressive in the sense of coming out of myself and grabbing hold of life, overcoming the fears that have always tended to keep me operating at half my potential. I also need to learn to defend myself better when attacked, which again comes back to my lack of spontaneous aggression. For this last, my therapist and I use the metaphor of my cat - she's a total sweetie, shy around strangers, docile and cuddly with me; but if she feels threatened, she has no problem lashing out with her paw, claws out. I'm still in therapy at the moment in the hope of developing that ability in myself.

I practice overcoming my fears by sticking my neck out again and again in the therapy itself - being as spontaneous as I can possibly manage with her, not allowing myself to censor myself, telling her absolutely everything, especially anything really risky like 'I disagree with you about xyz', 'I had a dream about you', 'I've joined this Internet forum about narcissism because I still feel the need to harp on about the narcissistic jerk even if you think I should be forgiving him'.

[Imogene]

Yes, for goodness sake's Daisy--stop being so hard on yourself! I do it to myself, but it sounds so painful when I see someone else attacking themselves. 

Thanks for all the great responses I've received so far.  I am going to journal a bit and think about them.  I'll be back in later on tonight.

[Chime]

Even though I sometimes believe she'd be better of without me.

She would NOT be better off without you!
Remember those small victories you mentioned and keep building on them
You owe it to YOU - You are worth it!
and you owe it to your lovely daughter!
  Lots of love to you Daisy!   
Chime

[alatariel]

Quote from: daisyk9292 on Today at 10:47:32 AM

    Even though I sometimes believe she'd be better of without me.

No.  I lost my adopted mom to cancer when I was only 7, so I can honestly tell you that no child is ever better off w/o a mom.  Especially not w/o a mom like you, Daisy, an empathetic, loving, intelligent woman. 

[JennyWren]

I don`t have a therapist. Therapy is not so common in the UK...though of course you can find a therapist if you chose to.

If I were to go to therapy...my aim would be very simply to be comfortable in my own skin. And sod what anybody else thinks.

I like being around the people I like being around....but the more I see of how people treat one another out in the Big World....the less inclined I am to enlarge my circle of acquaintance to be honest.

My current problems are really all about understanding what in the name of Dog happened with BigBird...and I really don`t think a therapist would be terribly interested or helpful on that score. Unless she/he practices voodoo.

[Rosemary]

I feel the same as you Jenny about therapy i dont really want it unless i can talk about the NH as he is the cause   of the crisis of depression etc  etc .
I turned down the nasty counsellor told her we dont connect !!!

this was at my 2nd assessment .she gave me a leaflet on private therapy ,so if i need it ill ring them.

I also feel i can do without making any new friends as you say its hard to know whats out there more Ns perhaps
I certainly dont want another man in my life im happy alone with noone to nag me about bloomin food all the time and its easier to clean up after myself .Also i can read in bed ,i love that sometimes for hours ,much better than a miserable man in bed .

So its NO goals for therapy  ,but ive made goals for myself instead improvements for me at last .

[Chime]

No.  I lost my adopted mom to cancer when I was only 7

So sorry to hear this Alatariel! 

hugs
Chime

[Chime]

My current problems are really all about understanding what in the name of Dog happened with BigBird...and I really don`t think a therapist would be terribly interested or helpful on that score. Unless she/he practices voodoo.

Hey there JennyWren ~
(still loving that name -- it really does roll of the tongue)
Well, my therapist doesn't practice voodoo, thank goodness!
However, she certainly has been very interested and keenly tuned into the cluster b stuff.   
It was an absolute revelation for me. 
"He sounds like he is on the spectrum of... " [with the appropriate caveat of not having met him, but basing it on chats with me, and with DDs]
She SAID IT! 
And there it was.   
She even gave me the whole boiled frog scenario that I have seen mentioned here, before I had ever heard of it.  It's been tremendously helpful to me, to have her along with all the other stuff I am plugging in to. [my private blog journal, CZ's Narcissitic Continuum, WoN, my amazing DDs, and some amazing best friend, my dogs, my work]
Being of anglican decent myself I understand the culture you're describing. 
(family in Wells, London SW6, Devon, Port Talbot, oh, and Kilkenny Cross Ireland, Aberdeen Scotland etc. -- a FOO that chortles "how DID those Kilkenny genes end up in the mix"  sigh...)  And I think this FOO stuff fed into my 'buck-up'; my 'over-function on behalf of the greater good and thou shalt be rewarded' modes; the 'look how good I've got it and disregard the rest' sort of thinking. [which is MY stuff -- not saying this is your stuff]
However, it turns out, I've made the right choice in trying therapy. (well, second choice - didn't like the first one) It's been quite validating for me really.  And I am so very grateful to have found her.  And kinda proud that I really bothered to try.  That was actually truly big.
It's kinda like many hands help make lighter work
Lighter work and a little help with an incredibly huge entrenched mess.  My therapist's experience and kindness has helped clear the fog much faster whenever it comes -- she helps bolster me in any particular way I am trying to make a stand -- and she has a really awesome "magic mirror" to help me reflect.  And she is my advocate. 
And so, after having read so many of your incredibly genuine posts, I have a sense that you have a really grounded soul.  Thus I am not suggesting you should DO anything particular If you should ever decide to -- I send you every wish that you find someone like I have.  I know the mess is getting cleaned up a little faster for the help
 
Chime
ps - sorry for the thread hijack... sheepish grin

[Never again]

Wow, Chime, that's a fabulous description of what therapy really is -- or should be -- all about. Our therapists should be first and foremost our *allies*. I'm very glad for you that you've found a good therapist. We N victims need all the help we can get.

Never again

[daisyk9292]

Okay I removed the icky, icky post.

Imogene - I view relationships as threatening as well. I really just have a tough time believing there are many you can trust in this world. But yet I know so many who seem to have a lot of people in their lives. From my take they have a certain number that they consider close and intimate, a certain number that are good friends due to a common link or bond that holds them together (even if they aren't super close the friendships go on for years), and then many acquaintances that are "circumstance" friends I guess?  (a neighbor, a work buddy, children play together).

I do have my H. Even though we have a whole lot of problems, he is very kind, supportive and does his very best to listen to me. Which is why I'm having a tough time deciding what to do about my marriage. At this point it seems like he's accepted the fact the our marriage is over, but he's still there for me, to support me, as I go through this healing process. I'm not completely sure because we really haven't discussed it lately. But he's even booked a trip to Mexico for the 3 of us for this spring. He comes over almost every night of the week. We spent the holidays together. But we live separately and there's no romantic stuff going on. It's difficult for me to trust he's just truly this kind and caring for me, and doesn't have a secret agenda of keeping me dependent on him and then eventually getting me back.

I wish I had more people in my life period. I have absolutely nobody I can share with in a truly intimate way, without it blowing up in my face somehow. Like the problem I had a few weeks back with my 1 closest friend. I'm now back to seeing her, but keeping the talk very, very, general.

So bottom line, I believe my goals are, healthy boundaries, figuring out what my relationship needs really are, overcoming fears, and making solid decisions about what to do with my life that aren't based on need and fear, for example staying in my marriage or going it alone.

As far as how many close and personal relationships a person has? Some can be content with just 1 or 2 some need a bunch! I always thought that was just an  individual choice, no right or wrong, and not necessarily an indicator as to how emotionally healthy one is.

[Chime]

We N victims need all the help we can get.
Never again

boy, we sure do!
Chime

[Imogene]

I am still thinking about this in a larger context. 

Meanwhile, my therapist just did something I don't like.  Last session I asked her to give me a concrete example of a behavior of mine that might put people on the defensive.  She said that the way I put her payment check down on her desk when I first came in seemed "hostile."  It was, a little, but not for the reason she thought.  It has to do with something that happened toward the beginning of our therapy.  I put the check on her desk, much in the same way I did this last session.  I just would prefer not to call attention to the exchange of money in this context--it embarrasses me.  That much is my issue.  My therapist swept up the check in an offended way and secreted it inside the folds of the wrap she uses to keep herself warm in the office.  It's like she saw the money as some kind of extension of herself that had been insulted by my abusive treatment of it.  I couldn't say anything to her about this odd gesture, because I'd only been seeing her a few months at the time. 

It was clear, however, that she didn't like me to put the money on the desk.  Because I don't see anything wrong with that, and I am the client, I've just kept putting the money on the desk in spite of that--hence, the hostility she noted.  We probably should have discussed it, but payment seems like a gray area to me.  Well, we discussed it last session.  Naturally she had no memory of her strange gesture.  Then, yesterday, I got a notice from my insurance provider saying that after February she was no longer accepting their provider.  This doesn't affect me this calendar year, because I only get 20 sessions a year.  But it certainly affects me in general.  I don't know how, aware as she was that I will be paying out of pocket in the future, she could point out my hostility around payment.  That really seems unfair. 

Sorry--I'm hijacking my own thread a bit.  I'm sure she was concerned about telling me.  But.  And.  Well.  I feel let down.

[alatariel]

Well that's really interesting.  I wonder if she is projecting hostility onto you b/c she's worried about continuing to get paid, now that you'll be paying out of pocket?

[CZBZ]

" However, she certainly has been very interested and keenly tuned into the cluster b stuff. It was an absolute revelation for me. "He sounds like he is on the spectrum of... " [with the appropriate caveat of not having met him, but basing it on chats with me, and with DDs] She SAID IT!  And there it was." ~Chime

That is Fantastic! When psychologists started referring to these characters as having a Cluster B disorder, that was a huge relief! Is there even such a thing as a perfectly genuine narcissist, without borderline traits or histrionic traits and woe be his/her family and friends---but antisocial traits, too? Learning about Cluster B personality disorders is an easier way to talk about 'narcissists' without getting hung up on which disorder is accurate. (sometimes people are so intent on a 'perfect' fit that they discount the fact that this person is hurting them over and over again but as long as he or she is not "a narcissist", they can fool themselves a little longer.)

I am so pleased to hear that your therapist recognizes the importance of validating YOU instead of giving that rat bazturd the 'benefit of the doubt'. Truly, the behavior IS the pathology which means that when you tell your therapist about specific events, therapists know they are seeing 'pathology'. Once they see the pathology, they know better how to help YOU as the 'victim'. (Victim stage is not meant to last forever...i hated calling myself a victim!)

What were my goals for therapy? When I went to therapy many years ago, I had one main goal: to stop treating people badly because I felt so awful about myself when I did things or said things that betrayed my self-beliefs (values, principles whatever-we-wanna-call-it).

Imogene,

I see you've posted while i was writing. Let me ask: when you 'intuited' that your therapist did not like your check being placed directly on her desk, did you ask her how she would prefer being paid? You said you didn't discuss it but if I'm reading you correctly, you continued to put the money on her desk even though you 'sensed' that she was uncomfortable? This might appear to be a challenge to her authority.

You seem to be very direct, to me. Goal-oriented and focused. Have other people in your life described you as hostile (other than your X of course!)?


Hugs,
CZ

[Imogene]

Great questions, CZ.  No, I decided that if she had a problem with my putting the check down on her desk, that was her problem unless she decided to say something about it.  But I didn't feel comfortable about it.  My "hostility" was really resentment, that she didn't make her preference clear.  But I do agree with you that, to the extent that I preferred the power struggle to a resolution, I was challenging her authority.  Because I know she wants to focus on our relationship, and I don't usually feel like doing that.  That said, I do think she has issues with money, and I wish when therapists picked an area of conflict they would pick one where there is not a great risk of countertransference, because it's hard for me to explore my reactions in such a muddied context. 

No one has ever characterized me as hostile, not even X.  Intimidating, defensive, reactive, needy, demanding--but not hostile. 

[CZBZ]

Is 'hostile' a psychology term? Is it used to describe certain types of behavior in therapy?

If other people have not described you as hostile, then perhaps she is using this word because of the power difference between you?

My guess is that in therapy, most people are deferential. They defer to the psychologist's authority, just as they do with doctors. Psychologists get used to clients' behavior so when someone doesn't behave in typical ways, they might interpret it as hostility. Your forthrightness might be seen as intimidating since people soft-peddle serious issues and you Call it As You See It. You don't seem hostile to me, Imogene...a little blunt and very articulate but hostile implies 'bad will' and you show no evidence of that.

Hugs,
CZ

[Imogene]

No--I think she just meant the gesture itself was hostile.  I really didn't take it as a characterization in any broader way.  She also would prefer more gratitude from me and for me to offer the payment with a gesture of thanks for services rendered.  She was pretty explicit this last session that this was her expectation.  I think she should be a little more selfless than this, frankly.

What can I say?  Never Again has a healthier attitude toward therapy, because she uses it to take emotional risks in a safe environment.  I don't assume the room is a safe environment, so I make the room safe by creating boundaries that restrict the therapist's range of reaction.  My therapist was complaining about this very thing in my last session.  She wants me to do the work with her in session, but I would prefer to do the work in real life, with people I encounter.  For instance, I was triggered this week by a PTA mom's email about grant writing at the school.  I asked if there was something specific I could write, and she said that she learned how impossible it is to write grants--just a very territorial response in general that's not worth delving into here.  The old me would have been offended and reactive; the new me was offended and ignored the tone, choosing to focus only on solving the problem.  In truth she is probably territorial without meaning to be, because ignoring it produced excellent responses.  I learned this in therapy.  I just didn't learn it through a traditional dynamic.

I think my therapist and my daughter's therapist, while they have encountered narcissistic people, have not walked a mile in my shoes.  Chime is indeed lucky to have found a therapist who "gets it."  Most simply do not.

CZ, your goal for therapy really resonated strongly with me.  I know that dynamic well, where you treat people badly because you yourself are acting in what Sartre calls "bad faith" (against your own values).  How did you learn to deal with this, if you don't mind explaining?  I would be very interested to hear the response.

[CZBZ]

"I think she just meant the gesture itself was hostile.  I really didn't take it as a characterization in any broader way.  She also would prefer more gratitude from me and for me to offer the payment with a gesture of thanks for services rendered.  She was pretty explicit this last session that this was her expectation.  I think she should be a little more selfless than this, frankly. "

I didn't mean a 'characterization' really...just a term that therapists might use differently than the general population. To me, hostile implies ill will. To your therapist, hostile could imply hyper-vigilance, or defensiveness. I didn't want to misinterpret what she was saying.

It sounds to me like she's using this particular scenario as an example you can use in other situations in your life---practicing gratitude with her and then being more grateful/sensitive in other areas of your life, too. Perhaps she thinks using this specific example will lead to changed behavior that will improve your relationships? She may not be asking you to appreciate her as much as she's constructing an example you can use outside her office.

(I started answering your question and needed chapter titles to post it. How about I think about it and post a reader's digestible version. Whoah! Big question!)


Hugs,
CZ

[tango3]

Well color me confused but why should you be expressing gratitude for paying for your therapist?  She's supplying you a service that you are PAYING FOR!!!!  I mean if she was seeing you for free, or half price then yeah I can see her thinking you ought to be a bit grateful.......  And what does it matter if you put a check on the desk, stuff a wad of cash in her hand or toss her a gold bar?  Money is money, payment is payment. 

Imogene it almost seems that you keep finding therapists that have their own unresolved issues that they are then projecting on to you.....  As to what started your initial thread, that your therapist wants you to move on from talking about X, if you still need to talk about X and dissect your relationship with him, then that's what you need.  God knows I'm still dissecting my relationship (what relationship?) with Toad and he's been gone 3 years!  My therapist has no problem with me ranting and raving about Toad and I've been seeing her for well over a year.  At no time has she told me I need to move on.   It takes as long as it takes to get over - there is no pre-determined set time frame. 

Oh and the reason I started in therapy was to find out what the hell was wrong with me that I attracted these nutcases!  It appears that I'm not the problem  but it has helped me define what I do want and what I don't want.  And like Chime I'm lucky to have found a therapist that understands Cluster B and has helped me tremendously (along with everyone here on WoN)

[Imogene]

tango--Your post was a welcome blast of fresh air; thanks for that!

Yes, I do think she's projecting a tad, but it would be remiss of me to use that as an opportunity to miss the last point CZ made.  Therapists like to use the room as a place to model successful interactions outside the room.  I have to be more compartmentalized than that because of my life experience, and maybe the thing that's been missing is for me to state that clearly and unequivocably, with no sense of apology.  It is my life, after all. 

This really goes to the crux of what the thread is all about--why am I in therapy to being with.  I am not ready to form new intimate relationships right now.  If I risk intimacy with my therapist and see projection or countertransference, it is going to destroy a lot of the trust I have placed in her just to be stable and a good person to provide reality checks, and for what?  If she were to tell me, I think you have trouble expressing gratitude, I do trust her judgement, and it is something I can think about and model successfully outside the room.

Actually, thanks again, Tango.  That post really jarred something loose for me.