Update on that friend situation...

[daisyk9292]

Looking for a little input from any of you who remember the experience I had with this friend over the holidays. The one who got upset and jetted on me.

Went to her home on New Years Eve, with my family. We said it would be an early night for us because we were all exhausted from the holiday week. We left around 10PM and quite frankly she seem a little peeved by that. But oh well!

She invited me to have coffee with her yesterday. This is a little confusing to explain but I'll do my best.

She also invited a mutual acquaintance. A little background on this 3rd person. She moved on to my street not too long ago. I had taken over a gift basket, to welcome a new neighbor. She and her H and family seemed really nice, plus she has 2 girls close in age to my D. So I was very happy about this. One day the new neighbor invited me to lunch. She told me she had heard I was separated. It was a little awkward but not that big a deal. Until just a few months later, I found out that she and her H were splitting up.  I found it a little odd she was asking me questions about my separation but didn't open up to me about what was going on. I later found out that this person had told others, that they already had decided to split before they moved in. This house was for him, she'd be getting her own soon.  So why at that time would she ask me and not open up about her own situation?? It was very weird to me.

Later I find out the my friend knows this person. They used to live in the same area, and their kids play soccer together. They weren't good friends just acquaintances.  I shared this with my friend, and she didn't have a lot to say about it.

After our little conflict, she texts me telling me that xxx friended her on FB. She seemed very excited, which I found strange because she's always talking about how much she hates FB and never goes on there because she thinks it's stupid. It felt like she just wanted to rub something in my nose. But she said she wanted to arrange for all of us to have coffee together.

So my friend invites me to coffee yesterday, she also invited the 3rd person.  I go, expecting to steer clear of any conversation like what we got into the night of the big "upset". Just keep it light and general. In fact, just listen to the others and nod and smile!! 

So here's how it turned out: First of all this is going to make me sound like a lush! lol I assure you all I'm not. I have a glass or 2 of wine with dinner sometimes, drink socially etc. But I never drink at home or alone.

Anyway, my friend has a house at a lake. Twice a year, she invites a few friends to go with her for a "girls weekend"
We eat, drink, shop, go out for dinner, talk, laugh. It's usually fun.  But one time, I was there with just her and one friend. We did shots. My shots days had been long over. But I decided to go along and have a few. BIG MISTAKE.

I ended up bowing before the porcelain god that night. While I was doing so, this friend, took my picture with her phone! Not a proud moment to capture right? But she thought it was sooo funny! I trusted her completely and didn't get all twisted up about it. We're "grown ups" but she did joke with me that she now has a "blackmail" pic.

So back to yesterday, I sit down, we begin chatting, she pulls out her phone and guess what she shows this 3rd person!!  =msn embarrassed=  I was in complete SHOCK!! The 3rd person had a look on her face that I read as "Wow, this is kind of awkward, not sure she should be showing this to me" She looked at me as if to say, "I'm sorry this is happening" Now, I'm not a mind reader, I have no clue what she was really thinking. I do know that she didn't laugh, nor did I. But my "friend" got a little kick out of it. Isn't that kind of mean??

Next thing I know, this 3rd person starts opening up about the split from her H. How they're handling the shared custody of kids, etc. She begins to ask me questions about my situation. Nothing too prying, but we began a dialogue about our experiences with our marriages. We discovered that we were both very very similar. That our husbands, our courtships with them, our marriages etc. We were really on the same page in so many ways. I found her to be very easy to talk with and that she was very positive and understanding.

During our conversation, I noticed that my friend, got up abruptly and kind of stormed off the the restroom. She came back a few minutes later, clearly she had been crying. She seemed a tad upset. I realized that something about the conversation hit a nerve with her, the exact same way it did the night she got upset and left my home!

I had noticed that when the other woman and I were talking about things, my friend would share her opinions in a way that would seem to almost "poke holes" into what we were saying?? I don't know how else to phrase that. Invalidate it! That might be it!!

Like when I talk about challenges with my daughter, it's always "Mine does it all the time" "Mine does that too" "I always have the same problem"

When I'm talking I'm speaking of the challenges I go through surrounding my daughters ASD. I always end up feeling like, "I handle these things too, why can't you?" I want to sometimes stop and ask her "Is you daughter diagnosed ASD??" She just doesn't get it!!

So that's it. I know this was looooong. But wanted to include important aspects and didn't know how to streamline it.

Thanks.

[alatariel]

She told me she had heard I was separated. It was a little awkward but not that big a deal. Until just a few months later, I found out that she and her H were splitting up.  I found it a little odd she was asking me questions about my separation but didn't open up to me about what was going on. I later found out that this person had told others, that they already had decided to split before they moved in. This house was for him, she'd be getting her own soon.  So why at that time would she ask me and not open up about her own situation?? It was very weird to me.

Could it be b/c she didn't know you yet?  So she felt better just asking questions w/o saying anything yet about her own situation?  Are the other ppl who knew about it friends or longer-term acquaintances?

So back to yesterday, I sit down, we begin chatting, she pulls out her phone and guess what she shows this 3rd person!!  =msn embarrassed=  I was in complete SHOCK!! The 3rd person had a look on her face that I read as "Wow, this is kind of awkward, not sure she should be showing this to me" She looked at me as if to say, "I'm sorry this is happening" Now, I'm not a mind reader, I have no clue what she was really thinking. I do know that she didn't laugh, nor did I. But my "friend" got a little kick out of it. Isn't that kind of mean??

That's really bizarre and childish.  I can't imagine why someone over the age of, oh, say, 25, would even take a pic of someone barfing, let alone keep it and then SHARE it.  Maybe she was trying to show how "cool" or "hip" she is, or get this new person on her side by putting you at a disadvantage?

I had noticed that when the other woman and I were talking about things, my friend would share her opinions in a way that would seem to almost "poke holes" into what we were saying?? I don't know how else to phrase that. Invalidate it! That might be it!!

Like when I talk about challenges with my daughter, it's always "Mine does it all the time" "Mine does that too" "I always have the same problem"

When I'm talking I'm speaking of the challenges I go through surrounding my daughters ASD. I always end up feeling like, "I handle these things too, why can't you?" I want to sometimes stop and ask her "Is you daughter diagnosed ASD??" She just doesn't get it!!

Did she respond in a invalidating way, as though she was pooh-poohing your daughter's unique challenges or implying that you're somehow making mountains out of molehills?  Or was it more like she was trying to reassure you that all parents have issues, whether or not their child has special needs?  Or trying to create for herself a sense of belonging to the little group you were in at the moment, by chiming in and showing her solidarity?

This "friend" is a weird creature, whatever her motivations are, and I'd steer as clear of her as you can w/o making it obvious that you're avoiding her.

[daisyk9292]

Could it be b/c she didn't know you yet?  So she felt better just asking questions w/o saying anything yet about her own situation?  Are the other ppl who knew about it friends or longer-term acquaintances?

Yes, I did take that into consideration, so really didn't hold it too much against her. Which is why I was open to meeting her yesterday. What is the right way to act when you're going through something like that? There isn't one in my opinion. 

get this new person on her side by putting you at a disadvantage?

This is exactly what I felt she was attempting to do. I agree, completely childish for a person in their 40's!!

As for the rest, I brought the daughter thing up in therapy, and my therapist asked me point blank, "Does her D have autism?"

When our friendship "renewed" a few years back, it was such a wonderful thing. But "bizarre" is has become. I know she's going through something. I don't know what that something is.

The more I learn about empathy, the more I'm learning that not everyone is great at it. Even if they aren't a N. I feel she's a little lacking in this area.

She's also a big time control freak. We agreed to meet at one location for coffee at noon. She text me that morning and said, "I need to meet here instead. See you at noon" not even posed as a question!! I responded back, that's fine, but I won't make it there til more like 12:30 see you then! lol

She's like this with everything. I'm also finding it very difficult to explain or put into words lately what I experience with her. 

IS THAT NOT A BAD SIGN?? I remember feeling and being this way when involved with the N.

[alatariel]

I think everything you've told us about her so far (and I do remember your other posts about her) adds up to a bad sign.  The question that only you can answer is: what kind of bad sign?  Is it a "run, as fast and far as you can and go NC" sign?  Or is it a "downgrade her to casual-acquaintance status and downgrade your expectations and level of trust" sign?

[daisyk9292]

I don't know what do yet. I felt disrespect the night she left my house. Now I feel very disrespected, and my trust violated with her showing that picture. I just keep asking myself, "What in the Hell was she thinking?" I've found myself asking that a lot lately. Even about things that aren't directly related to me or our friendship.

She is convinced she's very evolved, very intelligent, very good with people. No, she isn't. At least not always. She's the type that can't take any form of constructive criticism. Yet she seems to be always willing to hand it out to others, even not so constructive criticism. From what I remember growing up together, she has always been that way. I just kind of forgot about it til now ya know?

[rossignolchante]

yikes.  At least you had the new friend who seemed normal and didn't laugh at the picture.

Your current friend does not seem to be keeping up with the times emotionally and developmentally-she seems stuck in the teenage years or maybe younger. 6, 12, 18 ...

Everything you wrote about her seems to be 'all about me' and kind of bullying behaviour (with the picture).  Dismissing what you say, going away and coming back noticeably tearful (give me a break!) (this in particular reminds me of a 6 year old playing with friends who aren't doing what she wants!)

I just read the packing up and leaving incident, and she's definitely showing shallow emotions in that instance.  Reading her text to you and your response also just highlights the differing maturity levels.  She writes like a much younger person, everything is black and white to her.

[daisyk9292]

Yes, she does seem to be emotionally stunted. Over the past 4 months I've lost track over the amount of times she's broken out into tears. I've also noticed of number of ways she does seem to "bully" not just me but others. A lot to consider here. I'm trying, have been trying to give her the benefit of the doubt.

Guess what's happened to me whenever I've done that with people?? OUCHIE ON ME!!! Well, maybe not ALWAYS. But most of the time.

[rossignolchante]

I think possibly the reason why Ns don't get the OUCHIE back a lot of times, is because they attach themselves to people who tend to give them the benefit of the doubt.  Or people are so taken aback by the utter inappropriateness of their behaviour, they are momentarily stunned and the moment passes (like with your picture).

[Julia]

Daisy, She sounds at least partly borderline. I only am slightly familiar with this (good, long time friends' sister is diagnosed- pretty severe). But I have read a bit online and it comes up here too. So you could look it up and see if it fits her.  Not a good prognosis for change, even in mild forms, with borderline.......

Is she a lot of fun?, Or just someone who you can hang with since you mentioned that you do not have a lot of friends? IMO, unless you really, really enjoy her company much of the time, she is just not worth the effort. Certainly she is an immature piece of work, whatever her diagnosable traits may be. It is hard enough to grow and heal without these frenemies, you certainly deserve to surround yourself with more supportive people.

It is true that once we start to understand the personality disordered, we end up losing more than just the major relationship that led us to understand Nism or BPD, or Borderline, or whatever. We start to make little changes, little boundaries; we start to respect ourselves in a new way, we start to look more closely at weird behavior (and the weird people notice, btw). They push us to go back to the way we were. How would you have handled a slight like this back in the old days? That is what she is pushing you to do now. Times have changed however, and you get to rethink how you will respond to her now.

It seems like it would be very nice to have lunch again with the new neighbor. Just the two of you, and no gossip about mutual friend. It is good practice for starting new healthy friendships.


Julia

[MoreMyself]

Twice disrespected.  The photo thing would have done it for me.  People who 'make fun' of others by telling stories at their expense or showing pictures of them in embarrassing situations are showing disdain.  I wouldn't bother with her again.  You gave her another chance and you can be satisfied that she blew it completely without you doing anything that might have set her off.

[Rosemary]

Daisy I agree with more ,you tried but she failed you ,not to be trusted when she showed you up with the pic .

[daisyk9292]

Exactly my thoughts. This is twice hit now!! 

 Julia - When we started out, I did have fun with her. I always left having a good feeling after being with her. But it changed, gradually.  As far as the new friend. My old friend is the one who initiated and invited her. She's VERY good at initiating contact with people. I SUCK at it. I've talked about this in therapy. It's another fear I have to overcome. I'm social but I'm terrified of asking people if they'd like to get together with me. Low self esteem, low confidence 

My old friend and I used to go on typical outings. Movies, lunch etc. Now, we never go to a movie, or even out to dinner. It's either coffee, or staying in eating chips and dip and drinking vodka! On New Years Eve she even said to me, "Why have you stopped drinking?" I had 3 vodka drinks! I'm a lot smaller than she is for one thing! I'm tired of getting "hammered" with her. She's self medicating and wants a buddy or several buddies to keep her company.

I believe she and her H are having financial problems. I don't know if it's serious, or just a temporary need to "tighten" the belt. Their ncome is in rental property. Low end rental property. They have a number of mortgages against their house. She told me recently out of the blue they aren't able to get a credit card.  I realize many don't live off credit, but who doesn't have at least 1 card?!

She says  things that give me the impression she's unhappy in her marriage. She was not like this in the beginning at all. Now she's always putting her H down. She said to me once, "I didn't marry my "soulmate" I married him because I knew he'd be a good provider" "I believe marriages are like contracts and should be up for renewal every 10 years anyway!"

My marriage is in bad shape, and I had EA with a horrible N. But I am still a hopeless romantic and believer in true love. Even if it's not in the cards for me.

I've been separated for 4 years, trying to figure out what in the Hell to do. I'm in therapy, I'm trying to sort my life out.  She's not doing ANYTHING. She's just drinking a lot, and turning into someone who is being downright hurtful to me, controlling,and yet telling me "I want you to be HAPPY!" All the time, which I'm getting really, really sick of. Because she's clearly not happy!!    Lately it's been in a very condescending tone too.

And I have proof that it isn't just ME. I worked as her assistant in the fall. She teaches preschool. In 2 months her class of 8 went down to 4. Parent's pulled their kids out, and I can list a number of reasons why based on what I observed. She was a bully to 3 year olds!!  I was let go thank GOD, because I was getting stressed having to go in there every week.

I know she's in trouble in some way, I wish I could help her, but I'm getting abused by her and it's not fun.

I'd rather be completely without friends than deal with this.

[Imogene]

That's funny, Julia.  I was getting a borderline-ish read, too.

Daisy,
Here's my quick take (have to go to bed, as I am falling asleep at the keyboard).  I think you have a hair trigger with this friend now because you feel ashamed at having confided in her about the emotional affair with a man you both knew in high school.  At the same time, these reactive triggers mask an intuitive force warning you about the very real limits of the friendship.  You're looking for reasons why she is a bad friend, and you're second guessing yourself because you don't want to be unfair; meanwhile, your gut is already convinced.  Does that sound about right?

[JennyWren]

Urmmm....if somebody did that photo thing to me....or to anybody....I`m afraid that would be enough for me to know how they valued my feelings.

Even if she thought it was harmless...she could have picked up the vibe from you and the other friend.

If a friend has no sensitivity for your feelings....they are not really a friend.

I wouldn`t seek to justify anything any further than that.

[daisyk9292]

I looked into the border line traits and see some things there. I see them about me too! 

Imogene - I honestly can't say your post resonated with me very much. I'm ashamed of the EA and trusting this man on blind faith. I'm not ashamed about a friend knowing about it. Don't know if that makes sense. I'm ashamed of the EA but I don't believe I have anything to really be ashamed about. In fact I feel I'm carrying a shame that really belongs to him not me. This friend has told me she feels I'm really being too hard on myself about it, and I believe she's sincere when she says it.

She tells me all the time, and also mentioned it to this 3rd person we had coffee with, "You've changed so much since HS I can't believe it. In a really good way! Out of everyone I never believed you would turn into the person you've become" "Everyone else from HS is ridiculous and none of have them have ever grown up or changed at all"

I'm not sure how to take that. At first I thought it was a really nice thing to say to me, but now I think, "What was so bad about me back then?" I'm afraid to even ask her!!

You're looking for reasons why she is a bad friend,

I don't believe I've been looking, I believe she's shown me with actions, she's not a very good friend. I don't necessarily believe she's doing it consciously.

As far as second guessing myself, and listening to my gut. Well I do that all the time, with everyone and every situation.

Right now, I feel that if I were to go to her, tell her that I was very surprised that she showed that photo, I trusted her to have it, she showed to someone I didn't feel comfortable enough with to see it, now I would like it if you would delete it from your phone.  She'd absolutely, positively, flip out on me. Plus refuse to delete the photo.

How do I know, that this wasn't just a small step on her part to test how much I'll tolerate? What if she keeps pushing it further and further?

If she is a good friend, then perhaps this is the ultimate test to find out?

[Imogene]

I also have borderline-ish traits.  I think it is impossible to be an ACoN and not have some, as we grow up fearful of abandonment--for good reason. 

I didn't mean you are ashamed of having the affair, and that's why you feel ashamed that you confided in her.  I meant ashamed because you made yourself vulnerable to her but didn't get the kind of response you needed--she minimized, if I remember that correctly.  Then suddenly you are seeing things in her that you might have overlooked or soft pedaled in the past.  I could be wrong, but that is such a familiar pattern for me that I wanted to offer this possibility. 

[rossignolchante]

She tells me all the time, and also mentioned it to this 3rd person we had coffee with, "You've changed so much since HS I can't believe it. In a really good way! Out of everyone I never believed you would turn into the person you've become" "Everyone else from HS is ridiculous and none of have them have ever grown up or changed at all"

I'm not sure how to take that. At first I thought it was a really nice thing to say to me, but now I think, "What was so bad about me back then?" I'm afraid to even ask her!!

Right now, I feel that if I were to go to her, tell her that I was very surprised that she showed that photo, I trusted her to have it, she showed to someone I didn't feel comfortable enough with to see it, now I would like it if you would delete it from your phone.  She'd absolutely, positively, flip out on me. Plus refuse to delete the photo.

Hello again Daisy
The high school comment is a perfect example, imo, of a backhanded compliment.  A typical N compliment, which in order to elevate the N and their supply, has to put down other people, and also implicitly criticize the supply so they realize they were never as good as N.  It is so ironic she is talking about others not growing up, when that very comment is so high school!!!  Talk about having no self awareness.

I was going to ask what you thought would happen if you approached her about the photo, but I had a feeling you had a good reason for not approaching her about it yet--confirmed by what you wrote about her getting angry at you, and refusing to delete the photo.  Which again, is typical N behaviour when they have hurt someone else, they get angry at THEM. 

I agree with the person who said to try to spend more time with the new friend who seems normal.  The more time you spend with her, or any other normal person, the more dysfunctional this friend will seem.

Also, you mentioned that things were really good between you when you first reconnected after your EA and separation.  I wouldn't take this as an indication of her ability to give emotional support, but rather she felt comfortable with the fact that you were vulnerable and so it was easier for her to be "the strong, capable confident" one.  Now that you are becoming more confident, getting help for yourself, I wouldn't be surprised if that is also what is triggering this devaluing, bullying behaviour.  And also the fact that she just doesn't have the emotional stamina or depth to support another person for any length of time.  She needs way more help than you do, and you are not the one who can give it to her.

Keep trusting what your mind and heart are telling you. 

[daisyk9292]

Imogene - that makes more sense to me now. That could be true. I remember something happening that I said to myself "Don't over react but make a mental note of it" something to watch for. I can't remember what is was though!! 

rossingnolchante - I agree with much of your post. I don't know if it's N, BPD or what. I only know something is very off here. I mean I'm the one with depression, yet she's the one publicly breaking out into tears or having tantrums at the drop of a hat lately!

I'm getting very tired of others never holding back on pointing out my bad behavior, yet behaving badly themselves and that being perfectly okay and excusable.

I've been protecting my boundaries with her since the night she stormed off. I've been very proud of how well I've done actually. I truly believe I've done it in a very healthy way. I didn't shut her out completely, but I have chosen to continue on terms that are best for me. She didn't fuss about my stating I'd come to the new years eve party but won't be staying late, she didn't fuss about my stating I won't be to coffee at noon, I can make it at 12:30. I also disagreed with her on her opinion of the eye doc I took my daughter to. She said nothing.

But I can't help but wonder if I'm now being punished for my attempts at creating and mainting healthy boundaries for myself in regards to this friendship.

She has more friends than I do. Like I said, she's good at initiating. But I've also noticed, that all over her friends are more or less kept in their own compartments. She brings us all together once in a while, like to her lakehouse. But overall none of us developed a friendship with each other. Isn't that kind of strange?

Plus, when she's with me, she has mentioned every single one of them, and how they've greatly disappointed her in some way.

Really connecting some dots here.

[alatariel]

She has more friends than I do. Like I said, she's good at initiating. But I've also noticed, that all over her friends are more or less kept in their own compartments. She brings us all together once in a while, like to her lakehouse. But overall none of us developed a friendship with each other. Isn't that kind of strange?

Plus, when she's with me, she has mentioned every single one of them, and how they've greatly disappointed her in some way.

When did you meet the troll, again?

[Legs]

and Daisy...............you know if she tells you about how they have all disappointed her, then she says the same thing about you and when did it get ot be ok for one person to "be disappointed" in another person's behavior and talk to a third party about it? What good is THAT going to do anyway?

Sounds like fifth grade. Maybe it's time to make a list (Legs, the fixer) Put all the good stuff about her on one side of the paper and all the bad on the other..then assign "worth" to each action..like a 1-5. (if you're feeling really analytical)

But I'll tell you one thing...if you have to actually sit down and make a list, I can almost guarantee that the bad is going to out weigh the good. A friendship should not have to be so carefully measured. In My Opinion.


Legs

[daisyk9292]

alatariel - lol you know I remember the photo you posted and they actually resemble each other a little bit.

legs - Yep, I'm sure she's shared what happened the night she left here with another friend. In fact the very next day she went to her other BFF's house to make ginger bread houses.

I am really seeing a lot that is very 5th grade! I remember now, she once called me on my cell phone and announced to me that I was her official new BFF.  This is how my daughter in 3rd grade talks.

But at the time I just kind of thought she was being funny and cute. BUT - she did tell me that I was REPLACING her old BFF - Who upset her by registering my friend to receive a complete and complimentary makeover!     I swear I'm not making this stuff up.

Oh my goodness, do we ALL have to return to kindergarten and relearn the basics??

One thing I'm happy about, is I now have resources like WoN and my therapist to assist me with these things. The old me wouldn't be questioning and considering and thinking. I'd just be bending over and taking it!!

It makes me sad, to think this friendship isn't turning out to be a healthy one for me the way I wished for. But I am relieved that I'm improving on protecting myself. I also don't feel isolated, nearly as lonely, therefore not dependent on others so much that I allow them to hurt me. I've noticed that I am more outgoing, like with other moms at daughters school, starting conversations in a store, with people next to me etc.

I know I'm making real progress, I know I have a ways to go, and that I'll never be perfect. Because if I believe I am perfect, well then I'd be a N. Ewwwwww.  Unless I'm like 80 years old or more. I believe anyone that age deserves to believe whatever they hell they want to!!

[rossignolchante]

Hi again daisyk,

Well, if there's anything for sure, it's that healthy boundaries and PD do not mix.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if this is 'revenge' and putting you in your place.  She probably even knew this day would come, and that is why she saved the picture.

It sounds like she doesn't have friends so much as followers that she has groomed to be 'her' friends.

Like Legs said, if she's said something 'disappointing' about those other friends to you, she's most likely doing the same to each of you, and that is part of how she makes each friend feel 'special' and 'loyal' to her.  And it also has the added benefit of making each of you slightly distrust each other, and not want to be friends...it's very psychologically subtle, but effective at the same time.  I forget what it's called, but that is another N tactic.

And the more you give examples of things she's said and done, the more little red flags are waving.  The "you are my new BFF" thing is classic.  Who announces these things when they are over 15?  and uses the term BFF?  In her world, everything has to be clearly defined, I'm sure, without that she can't feel secure in a relationship.  And the reason for dumping her previous BFF, even more perfect, how dare someone insinuate that her looks needed improving??  Obviously not someone who is supposed to be her BFF and think that she is perfect in every way!!  That made me laugh to read that actually, too funny!  Maybe you could do some such offer, and then you would be 'replaced' as well?

[alatariel]

alatariel - lol you know I remember the photo you posted and they actually resemble each other a little bit.

UGH! To imagine that she has, not only a bunch of spiritual siblings, but a physical twin as well, makes me itch.


And, Rossignol, thank you for the insight into the whole "telling each person that the other ppl disappoint me" trick.  The next person who thinks to make me feel included by trash-talking their other friends can kiss my fish-belly-white backside.

[CZBZ]

This is a really insightful thread that speaks to a situation I'm going through, too.  The classic undermining with statements like "You've changed so much since HS I can't believe it. In a really good way! Out of everyone I never believed you would turn into the person you've become."

WHAT THE ##%!**&%#??? It is a back-handed compliment, the likes of which my X-husbaNd excelled in giving. So even though he was smiling when he said stuff like this, I was left in a state of cognitive dissonance. My sense of self 'back then' was completely different from what I was being told which means (if you don't know that person is manipulative) you are uncertain about your own perceptions! It's a manipulative and nasty tactic that insecure (especially envious) people do to someone who appears to be crawling out of the crab barrel.

That is the image that come to mind reading your thread, Daisy. You are escaping the bickering bipchy barrel and she sees it and she doesn't want you to escape, grow up, get better, love yourself.

I believe in the theory of Unconscious Defenses for narcissistic people and your friend displays a few narcissistic traits that are causing relationship problems in her life. Just one rigid trait, resistant to change, can ruin a perfectly good friendship. She may use manipulative tactics that have worked since she was a child, but she is not aware of why she's doing it. That's my sense with most narcissists. They are doing what they learned to do over a lifetime of experiences and they are unwilling ot question 'why' or change.

I am much more aware of what's NORMAL and what isn't now. But it has taken me ten years of diligent struggling to get to this level of awareness. I think you are on the same track as many of us are. When someone says something that never would have occurred to me, I pay attention to my intuition. I don't know this but I'm guessing that when she said she was keeping your Toilet photo for "blackmail", your intuition recoiled at the word 'blackmail.' Who even has that thought? AND, who would take a picture of a friend in a compromised position anyway? The whole thing is 'sick' to me...but honestly, Daisy? I have had things like this happen to me and didn't know how to interpret my intuition because why?? Why??? Because I didn't know what was normal and what wasn't.

We don't have to ever arrive at some magical end point when all our issues and problems have been resolved. We just have to be willing to struggle.

Your friend has serious issues that are ruining her relationships. Your friend is not willing to struggle. I figure that's why she drinks.


Hugs,
CZ

[daisyk9292]

I think you are on the same track as many of us are.

- What a compliment. Thank you.

keeping your Toilet photo for "blackmail", your intuition recoiled at the word 'blackmail.' Who even has that thought? AND, who would take a picture of a friend in a compromised position anyway?

 

I asked myself the EXACT same thing. I'm not ashamed that I had a little too much that night and got sick. It can happen to anyone. Especially if their tolerance is low. Which mine definitely is compared with this friend. I go months without a drop. At 42 I can't recover like I used to. I can't keep up with that lifestyle nor do I have a desire to.

This friendship did begin seemingly "normal" I would go a few weeks without hearing from her, but then we'd get together. It began this past fall, her calls, texting, wanting to get together became more frequent. I realized in Nov/Dec. I had something scheduled with her almost every single weekend. It was taking it's toll.

One reason for this was her kids birthdays. They are close together, she had a small "family and friends" gathering in her home. No gifts, just food etc. Then she had a skating party for the kids the following weekend.

I look back and I felt bombarded with plans to do things with her. I felt overwhelmed, and like my life was being taken over. Then we had the falling out that night at my house, and that's when I felt like that was it, I'm done. Time to pull, waaaaaaaay waaaaaay back from this. So I did. Then THIS happened.

I'm ready to confront her about the picture, and of course after I do you all will be hearing about it.

Thanks to everyone for your help.