Therapist says I have to tell my friend...

[daisyk9292]

that it made me very uncomfortable she showed that photo and I'd feel better if she would just delete it. If I can't out of fear of the fall out, her getting angry, ending the friendship etc. then it's not a genuine relationship. This is exactly how I was with the N too. I choked it down, held back out of fear of being told "You're wrong" "It's no big deal" "Like anyone cares about something like THAT!" etc.

Therapist said I can't give up on friendship without trying, this is how I learn. Consider it practice. I'm not overly optimistic. I think it's going to turn out badly. For now, I have to find the right words and the right time to say them.

*sigh*



EDITED to include prior Thread: Update on that friend situation
 

[pearlsb4swine]

Daisy, I don't remember now if I told you that I thought her showing that photo was clearly hostile and meant to make you uncomfortable.  Especially after what had happened the night she left your house.  I think a normal person would be trying to repair the relationship with you, not doing something that so obviously could embarrass you.

Whatever is going on with her, she is hurting you.  It's not you, it's her.  Asking her to delete the photo is the right thing to do.  Chances are that you are right and she will not take it particularly well.  But at least you will know you stood up for yourself, and that's a better feeling to have, no matter what happens with the relationship.

pearls

[Imogene]

I agree with pearls, and your therapist probably would agree, too, if she were posting on this board as a "civilian."  Her only point is that you can only tackle YOUR demons and stand up for yourself.  There's no guarantee of a good result, but that's not the point.  The point is to become a person who learns to be respected and get her needs met.

You probably know that already--just confirming.

[Chime]

you'd said something somewhere earlier about how you kinda wanted to tell her how you were feeling, but were afraid to...
sounds like your therapist is supporting what you conveyed

trying to stick up for yourself may be scarey
but you're worth it!
you may lose her
you may not (and if you don't lose her you've changed the dynamic between you a bit)
but either way you reclaim YOU   
be strong Daisy -- whatever you decide
 
Chime

[Julia]

Hi Daisy, THis is an interesting thread. You (along with Alaterial, of course), have opened up the subject of N-ish friendships. Like I said on your  other thread about this friend and her showing the photo, we tend to start drawing some boundaries and looking at weird behavior after we diagnose the biggest N in our life (usually a husband or parent). After that, we often notice issues with other people in our life like friends, siblings, etc.

In other words, after being a doormat for long enough with one major N, we find out that we have been letting other people walk over us as well. They either respond to our desire to stand up... or try to push us back down with a big shove. Your friend gave you a very big shove. I am not saying she is incapable of changing her behavior and treating you more respectfully, having healthy boundaries, etc. But that might be the case.  THe only way to find out is to stand up, and insist that you intend to remain standing while being willing to accept the results that she may tantrum or end the friendship. THis is what your therapist means by telling her that the photo incident upset you and you want her to delete it. You have already started to do this in little ways (refusing to stay late on New Years Eve, refusing to drink more than your limit, etc). If those changes felt good, then it may mean you are ready to go further.

Also, I have a request. I think it would help everyone understand this situation better if the two threads  about this friend, about this lunch date, about the photo, were combined. You would have to ask CZ to do this, but that would be fine; she has done it for others. Anyone who missed the first post will have a hard time understanding what happened. Also there are a lot of good comments on the other thread and they deserve to be re-read and considered as this whole situation plays out; as you have further conversations with this woman.

Here at WoN, we do not mind if threads get long. Think of Wings' 10 page thread about possibly losing custody of her d; it was really nice to have it all in one place, so we could find what we wrote, and read others responses over several months time.  Actually, IMO, you could easily use your initial thread (combined with this one), for any topic concerning this same friend. It helps people remember which friend you are talking about and the back story. So, if in 3 months, she does something else, you could look for this thread and add a new post, bumping it to the top. We are all used to this, used to looking at the end of a long thread when it has a new post. Proud does this with her La Cucaracha thread, adding to it whenever something happens at work with her XN and his latest mistress.

Anyway, thanks for bringing up the topic of N-ish friends. I had to stand up for myself with some friends, but nothing as severe as what you are describing. I also had to stand up to my mother....and it took a really long time, but she is not an N, she is a huge doormat to my Ndad, and didn't understand the first thing about boundaries.  She does now.... and we get along better.

Julia

[daisyk9292]

I'm fine with the threads being combined. My apologies for any confusion

 I did have a concern about the length. Truth: I underestimated you fine ladies and wanting to read through lengthy threads. I projected that because I have a tough time reading through lengthy threads. It isn't because I don't want to but I'm lacking structure here, there and well everywhere! I think I need to create a schedule that includes my WoN time without it being all over the place, (unless of course I have a day that allows for that)

I'm just the kind that thrives better with structure, and I need to get going on creating some for myself.

but either way you reclaim YOU

Yep this is along the same lines of what my therapist said to me.

Thanks everyone!! 

[CZBZ]

(We were posting at the same time, Daisy.  )


I can combine threads, but I cannot change the order of messages. Messages are posted according to the date and time so in combining Daisy's threads, comments on this new thread will be interspersed with comments on her other thread. It might not make much sense to readers.

And while it may be easier to follow a story when the thread is ten pages long, most people will not read a thread that long. They don't have time. They don't have the patience. Their ptsd interrupts their thoughts and they can't stick with threads that are several pages long. I was like that. Threads had to be a couple of pages long or I couldn't bear reading them. My anxiety increased because I wanted to support that person but couldn't read their entire thread.    And even if I did, to tell the truth, I forgot who had said what, so I didn't reply.

So while we do accommodate ten-page threads, and it's perfectly fine, I don't recommend it for people who need active support from forum members.

What I can do right now is put direct links to Daisy's threads so people can read them in consecutive order.

For longterm members who are updating their story, a single thread several pages long is an option.

 
CZ

[alatariel]

Daisy, I just wanted to tell you something that may or may not help, but it's similar to your situation with that "frieNd" and the photo.

At one point I had some cute, harmless and innocent pics of troll's kids playing with my kids on a trip we took together.  I posted these on my FB page, and someone connected to the troll said something to her about it in real life, some offhand comment like, "looks like your kids had fun at the amusement park last week".

Well, troll went ballistic on me.  Totally flipped out, told me to take those pics down ASAP and never, ever, EVER put ANYTHING related to her or her kids on the anywhere on the internet again.  She didn't want her kids exposed to all the pedophiles and perverts on the internet.

Well, I complied.  I was upset that she flipped out on me, and gave me no chance to explain about privacy settings, or that her own daughter had some of the same pics on her FB page, but I respected troll's feelings and got rid of the pics.

IOW, I treated her like a friend. 

 If that "frieNd" of yours flips out on you and refuses to respect you and delete the pic, she's not any kind of friend.  Would losing her be that detrimental to your life?  I realize you don't have many ppl to hang with right now, but this "frieNdship" sounds like poison.

[CZBZ]

Dear all,

I seized the opportunity to say a few things about long threads because I've been concerned about threads that might intimidate people from reading or posting.

Please know that my comments were NOT meant to negate the suggestion to combine Daisy's threads. Julia has been reading and posting on this forum for years and her participation is highly valued and appreciated. I've come to trust Julia as a good friend and because of that, may have been careless in my response.

I apologize for leaping in with my own agenda and minimizing Julia's thoughtful suggestion because I am sure, Daisy, that should your thread reach ten pages in length, Julia would read every message. 

In support of 'combining' threads, it is much easier for members to keep track of a current situation if the situation is continued on the same thread. You don't have to do that, of course but it might encourage people to post replies if they know the 'backstory'.


Hugs all,
CZ

[daisyk9292]

 Just one question? After I have a talk with my frenemy, where should I post the results? On this or the other thread? I've confused even myself now!!! lol

[CZBZ]

"After I have a talk with my frenemy, where should I post the results? On this or the other thread? I've confused even myself now!!! "

ha!!! Thank you for making me laugh out loud, Daisy! I needed that!! 

Let me take a look at this thread again.............

[Julia]

Daisy, Sorry for all the confusion I started by suggesting you combine posts. This is a pretty big place, and the important thing is just to post wherever.

I am glad that you intend to bring this up with your "friend". Please feel free to ask everyone about how to do this... i.e how to open the subject, what words you might say specifically. It is very likely that she will react negatively, as you suspect. Her response could have two subconscious reasons...1) she might like you to go back to being the old familiar Daisy, (the one she can push around),  and 2) she might do it as a defensive reaction to avoid any hint of blame. As you said, the conversation might not be pretty.  But..... she might come around in the end- enough to keep the relationship after she cools off and sees that you have indeed changed and will not return to being the old Daisy. Another plus is that you will be taking a giant step forward in your self esteem work.  I only started to feel the eensiest  bit better about the separation AFTER I learned about boundaries and started to practice thinking that way  (that I have the right to speak out about what hurts me and ask people to stop walking all over me.)

Julia

[daisyk9292]

CZ - It made me happy to hear you got a laugh out of that. Believe it or not, one positive thing I've always been told is I have great sense of humor. One of my greatest joys is making my daughter laugh so hard she has to grab her belly! I love laughter. But not at the expense of other people. 

Julia - I wasn't sure if I could ask for advice on what to say. My therapist left me with "You have to say something" but she didn't tell me WHAT to say. I figured nobody can do that for me.

I'm afraid my words with fumble, I'll sound weak and confused, or like a confrontational mad woman. I want to approach this with balance. Be calm, assertive, not too emotional. I feel a bit under the gun too. If I let it go too long I look stupid for bringing it up.

I got a text from her yesterday, "How are you? Did you enjoy the long weekend? I'm ready for mine to go back, too much togetherness! What is your school schedule like for this term?" 

I read that as "I need to know your schedule so I can know the days I can monopolize your time"

I haven't even responded yet. I'm sure I'll get another text from her, because I always do when she doesn't get a quick response.

Here's what I'd like to say to her when I have the chance,

 "There's something I need to tell you and I really need you as my friend to understand." "I was very surprised you showed the picture of me to C. It made me feel very uncomfortable because I don't know her well enough. At first I didn't think it was a big deal you had that picture, because you're my friend and I didn't believe anyone else would ever see it. Now that I see that it's possible for others to see it, I'd feel much better if you'd just delete it."

I'm sooooo very tempted to just text that to her. But my gut is telling me that many if not all of you will tell me "No Daisy, in person, face to face." I know in person is the proper way.

I'm wide open for suggestions if anyone has them. Thanks.

[alatariel]

IDK, since you regularly communicate with her by text, I don't see anything wrong with you sending that.  We're supposed to practice "baby steps", right?  That seems like a good "baby step" to me.

In a text like that, you're using "I" statements, and telling her directly what you need from her.

But, that's just my $0.02, as a person who has trouble sticking up for herself and asking anyone for what I need.  Others who have more practice communicating and sticking up for themselves may disagree. 

[Chime]

Sometimes people who write with a certain style can be misinterpreted, but I think what you wrote was pretty gentle around the edges.
So, I'm with Alatariel on this
if you want to text it, go ahead!
it kinda filters out some of the inflection, body language and innuendo at the start
And you can have a follow up chat after the ice is broken

it's the only way one of my DDs will communicate with disappearing dad.
Anyway, if it's what you want to do
go for it!
 
Chime

[Rosemary]

Txt if you want to  daisy but remember she can keep it ,and maybe show it

If you tell her face to face she cant show it /Keep it etc .

[Legs]

Daisy,

 Do whatever feels right and safe for you. It doesn't matter how many bites you have to take as long as the meal is finished.


Legs

[daisyk9292]

Thanks A and Chime.


Rosemary!! 

Txt if you want to  daisy but remember she can keep it ,and maybe show it
If you tell her face to face she cant show it /Keep it etc .

  CANNOT BELIEVE THAT DIDN'T OCCUR TO ME!!

The only thing is, even she did show it to anyone, I can't think of how it makes me look negative, and really would just make herself look bad wouldn't it? I suppose she could show it and say something about it being a text and "She had to text this to me and couldn't tell me directly."

But like Alatariel said, "baby" steps may be all I'm capable of right now. In fact I STILL haven't responded to her text from last night. I haven't decided what to do yet. It's giving me a lot of anxiety too. Like a ticking bomb!  I'd really like to just send the text to get it over with. But I don't owe her a certain response time to texts for petes sake. We're EQUALS. Or so I thought. I really hate that I'm like this.

Legs - lol I do love how you phrase things. I can never get enough.

[CZBZ]

Ah, Daisy...you are ready for this challenge! You can do this...it will be the start of your freedom from bullies.  .

I will back up Rosemary's reply. If your friend shows narcissistic traits (and yes, she does) then don't put anything in writing that you don't want streaming on a banner behind an airplane for all the neighborhood to read. Ns are notorious for twisting your words to suit their purposes.

So....I would not text. I would not text because YOU need to see her reactions---read the expression on her face, 'feel' the energy she radiates, notice all the avalanche of information we get in face-to-face conversations. And you need to start noticing your own reactions during 'confrontations', too. No matter what happens, this won't be a failure--that is exactly how I looked at it and still do with myself because confrontations never go away unless you duct tape your mouth and move to a solitary cave in the Himalayas somewhere.

I would ask to speak with her privately and then state my case directly without a lot of pussyfooting around. Sometimes like, "The picture you took of me is interfering with our relationship. That was a private moment between close friends and I feel embarrassed when you show it to people. I feel sad that you wouldn't delete it out of respect for me as your friend. I am not asking you to do anything I would not do for you."

I think you need to do this for yourself and for her, too. And pay attention to how you feel and what comes out of your mouth in response to her reactions. You can learn a lot about yourself, Daisy. And also, talking face-to-face shows respect for your friend and for your relationships. A text may be the wave of the future but that doesn't mean it won't drown people.  I've seen those commercials on television when romances end with a text...funny for tv. Not funny in real life.

CZ
 

[daisyk9292]

CZ - I had a strong feeling that was going to be your suggestion.  I will wait until the next time we are together. I know I'm going to be trembling on the inside and feel as though I'm putting myself in front of a firing squad. But maybe it won't turn out so bad. Either way, I appreciate the way your pointing out to me that whatever happens it won't be a failure. It's a learning experience. I can feel the lump already forming in my throat. 

[Chime]

this is your journey Daisy
believe in yourself
and do what you feel you should do
in what ever way you believe you should do it

be strong!
we're all here for you!

Chime

[daisyk9292]

Good lord!! Ready for more weirdness. I replied to her text and said, "My classes will be Mon and Thurs eves. My goal is to develop a more structured schedule,family time, time for studies, exercising, house and home, and social", I'

Her response" You sound like me, I've been thinkin I'm gettin too anal in my old age. I'm takin a poll from all of my close friends... do u think I'm too anal? A does. "
(by the way, A is the newest "friend" conquest who gets much worship and can do no wrong. I wouldn't be surprised if they were sitting together right now, waiting for a reply!

Oh how my mind rolls!!!

[Julia]

I'll put in my vote for face to face. That way you are standing up for yourself in the real world, which is where it counts.

As to what exactly to say....that depends on what kind of boundary you want to set at this time. Are you feeling  "I want to be able to tell her my feelings plainly, and be heard, not shouted down" ? or are you thinking more like "She needs to agree to apologize and agree to delete the photo for the friendship to continue" ? or somewhere in between?

Because what you say needs to point towards where you want this to go. It is very possible that the conversation could get heated, in which case it is good to have an idea of what your most important need is (your bottom line), so that you respect yourself and avoid saying either too much out of anger or too little out of fear.

Julia

[daisyk9292]

I'd like this:

"I want to be able to tell her my feelings plainly and be heard, not shouted down" ?

And this:

and agree to delete the photo for the friendship to continue"

An apology would be nice, but only if she did it of her own accord. I don't want to have to request one.

[Rosemary]

Daisy is she calling you Anal ???as she said your like her ,,and her friend says she anal ????  funny woman isnt she .