complicit in our own captivity

[alatariel]

So, there's the next big head-spinner about N's- how they make us complicit in our own captivity.  I guess that's true of almost any abusive situation, though, ya' know, Stockholm Syndrome and all that.

This thought came to me last night when I was watching TV, and seeing the police question an abused woman who's boyfriend had been murdered.  As she was describing their last fight, and the abuse she took, one of the (male!) officers asked her, in an accusatory tone, "so, why did you stay with him?"

I wanted to leap through the screen and slap him.  Hard.  What do you mean, "why did she stay"?!?!?  And why do you say it so accusatorily????  Do you think she freaking enjoyed it or something????

Poor woman could only stammer in response, "because he seemed ok at first.  I thought I could handle it.  He said he loved me, and he could be so good to me sometimes.  He only got mad if I did something he didn't like..."  and she trailed off and started crying.  You could see one of the officers come to an understanding, but the other just huffed in exasperation and walked away from the table.

How many of us have faced this accusation from friends, authorities, and even loved ones?  This is what makes it so hard to share our stories with the rest of the world.  If you haven't been there, you can't possibly understand that complicity in your own captivity. 

Maybe this is what makes some N's so good at the subtle power thing.  Maybe they've felt powerless and vulnerable, so they know what it's like to be on the other side.  They learned their trade at the hands of a master, and they're just honing their skill on us.  They don't have any other way to relate to ppl other than from a position of power.  They believe that's how everyone functions, and they know how to make us want to stay and put up with it, rather than run for the hills.

[daisyk9292]

Ha! Alatariel, try being a person who is married and had an EA with a married N.

"YOU made the choice to play with fire, and you got burned. Now you want to whine and cry about how mistreated you were? You didn't expect him to lie to you or disrespect you, mess with your head?"  "When clearly the very act of him getting involved with you, showed how he treated his wife and family. What about YOU? You did the same thing to YOUR husband and family" "Did you really believe this was going to have a happy ending?" "You got EXACTLY what you deserved."

I've said this to myself plenty of times. I believe this is what most would think about the situation. Even though it's far more complicated than this, I have a difficult time expecting anyone to feel any sympathy towards me whatsoever.

[Imogene]

I didn't have this experience, because I never complained about X to anyone but my best friend prior to the d&d.  There was so much shame and denial, and honestly until the abuse was overt, I didn't see it as abuse.  So now the people who know us are just scratching their heads, and they don't believe me.  So I stew a lot and vent in here and keep reminding myself that it doesn't really matter what anyone else thinks--that is, it's not going to affect my life going forward, because I'm not seeking counsel from people who are blind to my situation.  What's hurtful is the lack of support and validation from people I've known a long time.  They are stuck in the "takes two sides" and "men can't handle childcare responsibilities" mentality.  Also it's quite possible that I was so remote when with X that no one really warmed up to me to begin with.

[honeybearII]

until the abuse was overt, I didn't see it as abuse.

Ah, yes, I can certainly identify with this statement, Imogene.  I grew up in a pretty traditional family where my dad's word was LAW.  I was scared to death of him throughout most of my childhood because my mother used the common phrase...."wait 'til your father gets home".  My dad's way of disciplining was smacking us around and using the belt on us. 

Because I learned to accept all this as NORMAL.....isn't it what EVERYONE'S father did?.....I was a prime candidate for the games Ns play.  My husband never hit me, but he certainly knew how to play the head games....the shame and blame game, the gaslighting, the emotional withholding, the cold anger.....we all know those games so well.  It wasn't until the marriage was already past redemption (even though I hadn't realized it!) that I finally got myself into therapy with a couple of therapists who managed to get through to me that this was NOT "normal" and that I had been abused emotionally for most of the 32 years I was with my ex. 

I must admit I was defensive at first.  I refused, for a long time to label what he did as abuse.  I kept that picture of his being a Good Man but somewhat flawed in my head and had a really hard time letting it go.  I just didn't want to believe that I could have stayed with anyone that long who was DELIBERATELY treating me that way.  What was the final nail in the coffin....the acceptance that he was abusing and KNEW IT....was when he said to me, "I guess I ought to get into therapy and figure out why I set out to destroy the one person who has loved me and stuck by me through everything".

GEE!!!  yah THINK????

That one phrase, thrown out rather casually I might say, caused my "aha" moment.  HE HAD KNOWN ALL ALONG HE WAS TREATING ME DESPICABLY.

Honey

[Imogene]

Ha!  X said to me, after attending a few individual sessions with the therapist who'd been our marriage counselor, that "it was going to take so long for therapy to be effective" that he'd decided it wasn't worth the effort.

He also must have said to me 20-50 times in the course of our marriage that he knew he "had ruined my life."  Believing that only I had the power to do that (and I still believe this), I would hasten to object to this statement.  Instead that should have been my "aha" moment.  Because he knew I he was contributing to my unhappiness, and he was completely unwilling to do a thing about that.

[smp]

Boy, do I feel dumb! I kept thinking pigface was having trouble adjusting to getting money from his dad - I was sure he would "turn back into himself" as soon as the money was gone. Little did I know, that was his real self, and he will probably never run out of daddy's money!!

[CZBZ]

Well, I can see why the police are frustrated, having dealt with an Aunt who called 911 and then ended up going back to the guy for years. Police put their own lives in danger when settling domestic 'disputes' and I figure the police want to help---to protect and serve. I've felt like asking my Aunt why she kept going back...I mean, isn't being chased by her husband with a swinging ax enough to say the "family" is broken? And she goes back. Again. And the police are called. Again.

I think that because police feel HELPLESS, they take it out on the victim. It isn't easy to empathize with someone who makes 'you' feel helpless. I think feeling helpless-and-powerless to help my Aunt is why my patience wore thin after decades of domestic violence. My Aunt is no longer living with her horrible-abusive-narcissistic-psyche professor but she had to leave everything behind to get out. People don't factor in losing your home, your possessions, your security and maybe even your kids when you leave. Basically---people just don't think. Or even TRY to think about it. Now that victims are being supported by society (making headway in our media towards public awareness), we're making progress---but as usual, it's s-l-o-w. 

At first, I wanted to PUNCH anyone who asked me why I stayed. I wasn't a complainer while married and truly did not discuss the problems in our marriage with anyone.  But now, whenever anyone asks me why i stayed for thirty-plus years, I smile like Tammy Wynette and sing a few lines of "stand by your man" and most people understand.

I also tell people this: If my husband had been able to straighten up and make like a man, I'd be respected as the dutiful, patient, compassionate, forgiving, and loving wife who believed in her husband. People respond kindly to that comment---occasionally they're grateful for having their eyes opened.

CZ
 

[Liftedup]

So, there's the next big head-spinner about N's- how they make us complicit in our own captivity.  I guess that's true of almost any abusive situation, though, ya' know, Stockholm Syndrome and all that.

This thought came to me last night when I was watching TV, and seeing the police question an abused woman who's boyfriend had been murdered.  As she was describing their last fight, and the abuse she took, one of the (male!) officers asked her, in an accusatory tone, "so, why did you stay with him?"

I wanted to leap through the screen and slap him.  Hard.  What do you mean, "why did she stay"?!?!?  And why do you say it so accusatorily????  Do you think she freaking enjoyed it or something????

Poor woman could only stammer in response, "because he seemed ok at first.  I thought I could handle it.  He said he loved me, and he could be so good to me sometimes.  He only got mad if I did something he didn't like..."  and she trailed off and started crying.  You could see one of the officers come to an understanding, but the other just huffed in exasperation and walked away from the table.

How many of us have faced this accusation from friends, authorities, and even loved ones?  This is what makes it so hard to share our stories with the rest of the world.  If you haven't been there, you can't possibly understand that complicity in your own captivity. 

Maybe this is what makes some N's so good at the subtle power thing.  Maybe they've felt powerless and vulnerable, so they know what it's like to be on the other side.  They learned their trade at the hands of a master, and they're just honing their skill on us.  They don't have any other way to relate to ppl other than from a position of power.  They believe that's how everyone functions, and they know how to make us want to stay and put up with it, rather than run for the hills.

Mine had me in a complete fog til 2008, we are talking 14 years.

They do not realize how they use the subtle power thing. MOST other people are FOOLED by him too. My self help group keeps saying to me, he is not stable within himself, they do not know the half of it.

If someone is trained at the hand of N parents how are they going to know anything else?

LEARNING about the existence of NPD, woke me up and had me realize I was wasting time, trying to get love care and concern from people who simply did not have it.

I also get pissed off when people get nasty about why did you stay.

I had social workers refuse me help in moving--I am too disabled to move boxes, moving truck, supportive housing etc. I looked for even transitional housing. I do not know who the social work world helps but I guess disabled women with serious health problems are off their radar. I know I am disposable person even in those worlds.

It actually was a nightmare. I put a toe in the water of the future poverty that awaited and took it back out.

In old town, my church convinced me to stay, that it was the "Christian" thing to do, I would have needed their help. They meant well and back then there had been no mild abuse even, except for his punched holes in the wall but how would they know.

I had to test out all the things.

I stayed because of poverty and NOT wanting to end up in a Medicare nursing home. I guess we all have to figure things out. I always have my eye open for other opportunities, you know and if money ever came my way, things would be different. However there I am realistic, moving in with people you only know from the internet can be dangerous, I need to stay alive. I have physical needs that need met, and if you look at the heirarchy of needs, I am just trying to take care of myself.

Severe poverty now for me could mean the ending of my life, when I need medications, sleep and stable apt home to survive. He hasnt been abusive, he went in counseling, put foot down. That abuse was on mild end having things thrown, holes in wall some intimidation. I made it clear, I would take poverty over that BS, he went to men's group, counselor, and it abated.   I guess dealing with him isn't always easy, but I did distance myself. My endeavor now is to find as much outside support and friends though it is too slow going. One thing I have noted with divorced friends, most had family support were able to move in etc. That is lacking in my life. When push comes to shove, I do not have a family.

I found the DV world snotty, leaving women in HOMELESSNESS [yes here in America==that is how it is playing out and they never understood even CLASS< MONEY AND PRACTICAL ISSUES> I surely do not think much of them at all anymore. I still remember what approaching them was like as a severely disabled woman.

I probably was fortunate I got him in counseling and put my foot down. He became mroe abusive after job losses before it really wasn't a problem. So it was mild and more short term. He has shaped up and knows I won't tolerate things but he still will smash his own stuff.

The DV world sucks, and they have no real homes for women and they toss women out after 4 weeks. One social worker told me to even leave town. I remember asking HOW? They make the system so the woman loses all her material goods and for a disbaled person with things they NEED to stay alive like breathing machine, it is STUPID.

I went to women's counseling group, and Id say 60% in there were living homeless either in hotels or on peoples couches. Also women lose kids due to poverty in those shelters. I do not have kids but I still remember the feelings of how I was condemned, and I would not go through that system ever again. I just went to the counseling group and never stayed at the home or called cops--mine wasn't that violent, but remember how I was treated and it was AWFUL.

[Liftedup]

. My Aunt is no longer living with her horrible-abusive-narcissistic-psyche professor but she had to leave everything behind to get out. People don't factor in losing your home, your possessions, your security and maybe even your kids when you leave. Basically---people just don't think. Or even TRY to think about it. Now that victims are being supported by society (making headway in our media towards public awareness), we're making progress---but as usual, it's s-l-o-w.

Yeah, they make the abuse victims lose EVERYTHING.

I do not think there is much support out there.

If a disabled woman who can't move one box, can't even get help with MOVING, what good are they?

They aren't.

I decided to stay in my case, but I think of women in the VIOLENT situations, I think it sucks. They have been betrayed.

[Liftedup]

The betrayal of the outsiders can be immense.

I guess that is the way, I see it.

In today's American society, you are blamed for everything, if you end up poor, disabled, EVERYTHING.

and even for ABUSE.

People see abused adults as lessers, I learned that the hard way even when the abuse was on the mild end.

I was happy to see in his social security report, the counselor wrote something like wife has issued ultimatums. That made me laugh kind of. I sometimes wonder if I have become somewhat of a hard$$$ dealing wtih all these jerks.

Maybe I have.

[daisyk9292]

They do not realize how they use the subtle power thing. MOST other people are FOOLED by him too. My self help group keeps saying to me, he is not stable within himself, they do not know the half of it.

If someone is trained at the hand of N parents how are they going to know anything else?

LEARNING about the existence of NPD, woke me up and had me realize I was wasting time, trying to get love care and concern from people who simply did not have it.

With all I've learned I STILL have a part of me that has a difficult time accepting there are humans out there who are so cold blooded, who have no heart, no concept of emotional pain and suffering, yet can act like they are perfectly fine, caring people.

 It's like discovering you share the planet with aliens that look like us, "act" like us,  but aren't like us. There are so many who don't know and won't believe you if you tell them. I also feel like they're taking over the planet and they're winning! 

Sometimes I wish I could go back to not knowing.

[Liftedup]

With all I've learned I STILL have a part of me that has a difficult time accepting there are humans out there who are so cold blooded, who have no heart, no concept of emotional pain and suffering, yet can act like they are perfectly fine, caring people.

 It's like discovering you share the planet with aliens that look like us, "act" like us,  but aren't like us. There are so many who don't know and won't believe you if you tell them. I also feel like they're taking over the planet and they're winning! 

Sometimes I wish I could go back to not knowing.

I understand.

I think I was happier in some ways before I "knew" but Bible tells us truth will set us free.

I feel like they are taking over the planet too. No normal human emotions or attachements. One thing when I found out about NPD regarding mother, at least I figured out it is HER, not me, and the world can see her as successful, loving, kind because she has money to give out, and deny me, but that's OK......

[daisyk9292]

but Bible tells us truth will set us free.

I believe this is true. I just haven't reached a point where I've internalized it.

Sometimes I feel like if the majority of the world is basically just "Screw over whoever you want to and don't worry about it" then I wish I could be the same way. It would be a lot less painful.

[MoreMyself]

The Hobbit was a small man.  5 feet 3 inches in the old scale.  So who was going to ever believe that he abused me physically?  I'm bigger boned and as tall as him.  But he would push me into furniture after an argument, kick me when I turned away, raise his fist into my face (but not hit me).  That's abuse.  But not enough to involve the police.  Nobody would care and they'd look at him and think he couldn't possibly do anybody much damage. When I'd try to get him to admit what he'd done he'd laugh and say "Look at me, I'm a small person! What harm could I possibly do to anyone?"

I stopped that first siege of physical abuse by telling him flat out that if it happened again I was leaving.  So he turned to verbal and emotional abuse, which is worse in many ways.  When family and friends were visiting he was a happy little vegemite, smiling, friendly, helpful.  It was so hidden from everybody that I took the brunt of his moods and rages.  Who would believe me?  Not even my own parents who witnessed one of his rages, not even them.  They just ignored it as though it hadn't happened, keeping his dirty little secret, although my mother admitted recently that she had talked to my father about it and thought he was nasty to me. But neither of my parents, not once in 30 years, asked me if I was okay, if my marriage was okay.  If he was treating me with respect and the way he should.  Clearly it wasn't high on their agenda. 

Then there's the isolation.  He moved me halfway around the world and never once wanted me to travel back on my own to see my family or friends, always complaining about the cost, and about not being able to take time off his job to look after the kids. It was only after I went back to work and had my own money that I started going back to visit.

Complicity to me was survival spelled differently.

[Freezer Burned]

It's like discovering you share the planet with aliens that look like us, "act" like us,  but aren't like us. There are so many who don't know and won't believe you if you tell them. I also feel like they're taking over the planet and they're winning! 

Depending on which theory you read they are known as tares, Satan's Seed, the Reptilians.
You are certainly not alone in feeling that they are "Not Us".

[RB22]

X moved me to another state, and kept us running out of money. We couldn't afford to send me back home for visits.. and he blamed our money issues on my innept budgeting skills.

Funny, I never thought much about this till I read the above responses. X moved us AFTER my dad questioned whether or not X was abusive towards me.  Dad (and step mom) made it a point to ask me for a meeting (alone) to bring up the subject and ask about my marriage.  They felt X was isolating me from them.  Of course I ran home and told X what they said.... and a year later we were on our way to a different part of the country.  Wow....never thought about that till I read this thread!

Complicity to me was survival spelled differently.

  This is also how I have come to feel.

How do you know you are being abused, if what you are dealing with is NORMAL to you.  I grew up in an emotionally (and physically) abusive home.  X didn't hit me... but he used all the other tactics of abuse I am familiar with.  So it felt normal... but it wasn't.   My Aha moments come from my kids... trying to make sense of things they question him and I.  I sometimes ask what he said, other times they share without prompting.  When they share the stuff he said.. it sounds so typical of him... yet so strange and NOT NORMAL.  I have often wondered if the reason they share is because it seems strange to them also.  God, I hope so.  That would mean that on a deeper level, the reasons he gives for doing what he does... strike my kids as NOT normal.

They ask questions like "Why did you marry dad/mom/nw?"

Me: Because I loved him and couldn't imagine going thru life with anyone else.

Him: He married me because he (thought) he loved me.  He married NW because it felt weird to be living with her and not married to her".   

Definately something OFF with that reasoning.

[Liftedup]

I believe this is true. I just haven't reached a point where I've internalized it.

Sometimes I feel like if the majority of the world is basically just "Screw over whoever you want to and don't worry about it" then I wish I could be the same way. It would be a lot less painful.

I hope you can. To me evil is a reality, and that can be very very hard. Without God's help I could not take it. The majority of the world IS screw over whoever you want to and "get mine". Life is far more painful for those who desire truth in this world. The Bible even admits in the Psalms that the wicked prosper [not saying all rich people are wicked, I supposed this is more the general trend]

[Liftedup]

The Hobbit was a small man.  5 feet 3 inches in the old scale.  So who was going to ever believe that he abused me physically?  I'm bigger boned and as tall as him.  But he would push me into furniture after an argument, kick me when I turned away, raise his fist into my face (but not hit me).  That's abuse.  But not enough to involve the police.  Nobody would care and they'd look at him and think he couldn't possibly do anybody much damage. When I'd try to get him to admit what he'd done he'd laugh and say "Look at me, I'm a small person! What harm could I possibly do to anyone?"

I understand.

I am a very large person and people snickered when I said I felt indimidated by husband. Thankfully my abuse was not the severe and violent type before I got him into counseling.

One relative said 'Why don't you throw him out?" [he actually is acouple inches taller then me and more fit], of course this was Narc mother who told me, "youre a wimp". She has never felt fear in her entire life.

So sorry that happened to you. I put my foot down, even with the verbal abuse but sometimes feel like life is just holding boundaries. I know what you mean when they act alll nice in front of people. Mine acts syrupy sweet in front of others, that others tell me Oh you have such a sweet husband. Of course sometimes he does it in private but usually because he wants something.

Yeah the betrayal of the bystanders. Most do not want to know.

I told mine I would take poverty and more over taking any abuse. At least I do not have the abuse to deal with but he still will smash things when I am not in the room and mad at someone else. I would have more abuse from narc family awaiting me and more severe emotional. Yeah when they isolate you it makes things worse, can you move back? I was moved from my small town, and that is where abuse worsened. When they isolate you, they know they have you. I am making a couple friends now but it has been a long time coming.

I do what I have to, to survive, and yeah I've gotten judged before. [this board has treated me well] I do what I have to make it in life. I have serious health problems that would have taken out most people by now.

[Liftedup]

Depending on which theory you read they are known as tares, Satan's Seed, the Reptilians.
You are certainly not alone in feeling that they are "Not Us".

Yep I am with you.

As I have written before, I now ask is SOMEONE KIND? DO THEY HAVE FEELINGS?

This is to ferret out NARCs and the COLD ICICLES>

[CZBZ]

"How do you know you are being abused, if what you are dealing with is NORMAL to you.  I grew up in an emotionally (and physically) abusive home.  X didn't hit me... but he used all the other tactics of abuse I am familiar with.  So it felt normal... but it wasn't.   My Aha moments come from my kids... trying to make sense of things they question him and I.  I sometimes ask what he said, other times they share without prompting.  When they share the stuff he said.. it sounds so typical of him... yet so strange and NOT NORMAL.  I have often wondered if the reason they share is because it seems strange to them also.  God, I hope so.  That would mean that on a deeper level, the reasons he gives for doing what he does... strike my kids as NOT normal. " ~RB

This passage really spoke to my heart, where I am today after a perfectly horrible birthday this week.  One of my sisters is mad at me AGAIN (typical and normal) and I don't even know why (also typical and normal). She's pouting because of something I did or did not do, said or did not say, intended or did not intend, nobody knows for sure. We're used to someone in the family being her scapegoat. Guess its my turn.

In fact, we're so used to her periodic asininity that it rolls over us like water on a duck's back. We don't even pay attention. She'll eventually start talking to us again. When she needs something.

What was normal in my family-of-origin is no longer 'normal' in my immediate family; and yet, my sibs are carrying on the dysfunctional behaviors of my ancestors even though its 2012 and great-grandma's jealousy is out of sync with what we know about healthy relationships today.

"Oh, she is acting just like grandma so-and-so who used to pout until grandpa such-and-such gave in." Yes. My family really does excuse my sister's behavior by comparing her to our ancestors!

She is such an ass. She excuses herself with the same reasoning. "Yes, I am just like Aunt flunky-dunk! It's in my genes!"

It's baffling to watch people behave unconsciously with their eyes wide open so as horrid as it was, I am grateful for my Rude Awakening. What was normal to me as a child is no longer invisible to me as an adult.

What is normal to my kids now, makes abnormal behaviors leap out like fireworks on cloudy nights. They can't help but SEE the dysfunction which is a fine tribute to what 'we' can do once we get OUT of the pathological relationship that is choking the spirit out of self-and-family.

See the pattern. Get rid of the extreme dysfunctional N if possible. If not, diagnose that sucker from head to toe.

Then zero in on dysfunctional behaviors in the family-of-origin wherever those behaviors might fall on a vast continuum of poopy traits. First you see the worst. Then you refine your awareness by spotting red flag behaviors. Then you move on to what's merely-dysfunctional but-potentially-pathological if not rendered conscious, corrected, and countered. Crimenantlies.
.
So my sister is pouting. Again. Which she has always done since she was five and we were so used to it, we learned to just wait it out. The funny thing is that I learned to accommodate her "Wall of Unpleasant" when we were growing up because as the eldest child, it's what my parents taught me to do. They wouldn't confront her--which fostered a sense of helplessness for the rest of the siblings who tolerated her ridiculously stupid behavior, setting us up for ridiculous-to-worse behavior from adult partners.

Since I married a narcissist, my toleration for stupid behavior got an upgrade to Abuse. I wouldn't go so far as to say  my sister is abusive with her temper tantrums and childish reactions, but my parents' toleration (both then AND now) normalized the abnormal. Along with our reactions: shutting down your own feelings and stuffing your own emotions and neurotically blaming yourself  rather than walking over to my sister and pouring a bucket of warm jell-o on her face.

What I have learned is that every narcissist worth his-or-her diagnosis, will take advantage of other people's 'accommodation' (call it fogiveness, understanding, support, toleration, whatever!).

So yea, I suppose we are complicit in our own captivity; however, if you hadn't married/partnered with a narcissist, might your toleration have been the foundation to a mutually satisfying relationship that allowed each person to work through the dysfunction of their past---together??? I can't help but imagine how my marriage might have turned out had my partner only been dysfunctional, immature, and quirky. Like me. 

There were red flags but had he chosen differently, as did I, my tolerance and accommodation would have been beneficial, even worthy of respect.

It's a thought.


CZ
 

[Imogene]

CZ, this post really touched me, because it is something I talk about in therapy a lot: what if I'd been involved with someone with childhood baggage but less rigidity?  Could we not have helped each other recover from the past? 

X and I both came from narcissistic families, and we both developed poor (but very different) coping strategies as a result.  I chose X in large part because I was sick of taking care of myself and my partner, and he seemed so competent.  A man who could do anything!  I didn't realize I was feeding the image of his false self; I thought I was finally having a healthy relationship, because I had met someone so resilient.  Nor did I think I was inflicting narcissistic injuries every time I had a different opinion from him or objected to something he'd done or attempted to discuss problems in the relationship as they arose.  I thought I was pushy, obnoxious, ungrateful, needy--you get the picture. 

When my therapist first met me, she decided that I didn't have a personality disorder, and certainly not a cluster b disorder, but she felt I was just shy of avoidant personality disorder.  She's since come to see that I am not fundamentally rigid but that living with narcissistic people has really made me defensive and avoidant.  A partner who didn't need me to exist solely as his reflection could have helped me to be less defensive rather than making me more so.  I do believe that.  I think that is true for many of us here.  I like to think we are serving that function to some extent for one another as we explore these issues together on the board.

[CZBZ]

" Could we not have helped each other recover from the past? "

I choose to believe it it possible. I hope it is possible. You roll the dice and sometimes you lose. I watched a movie the other night suggesting that 1) our character;  and 2) our luck, determine our fate. This pretty much sums up my philosophy on who ends up with Ns and who doesn't. (short of two people with pathological personalities joining together like Bonnie and Clyde).

I have never, and i really do mean this, met anyone who didn't have dysfunctional behaviors, childish leftovers. unhealthy patterns. Sometimes people throw the dice and end up with a partner who can mature with them and sometimes they don't.

I'd like to know more about serious warning signs that someone may NOT be able to work through their defenses. I continue to be a very patient and kind person despite my losses. I would like to know how to avoid attaching to people who cannot work through their narcissistic traits so I can build better boundaries between them and myself. But still, hopeless romantic that I be, I continue to build my 'resilience' because i don't know any other way to foster intimacy than opening my heart to possibilities!

When I know there is a mental illness impacting our relationship (such as with my bipolar sister who lives with me), I can regulate my reactions...even make conscious my attachment to her...what I will do and won't do for the sake of love. It's not so easy with people who have not been diagnosed and thus you believe they are less pathological than those that have. I suppose that is my learning lesson for this week. Sometimes, the people who don't believe they need therapy are the most dangerous. Because we assume they are capable of change, that they are in the same process as ourselves and unfortunately, we don't adjust our boundaries accordingly.

CZ
 

[Rosemary]

Yes C.Z. the undiagnosed are dangerous very dangerous  as they dont or wont go to therapy and are in fact HIDDEN
and we come along and fall into the trap .

[alatariel]

When I know there is a mental illness impacting our relationship (such as with my bipolar sister who lives with me), I can regulate my reactions...even make conscious my attachment to her...what I will do and won't do for the sake of love.

Well, we all did regulate our reactions with our N's, but since we had no idea what was the matter with them, we didn't know how to react, so we just kept trying different things.  Not to mention that there is no right way to react to an N, b/c once they've made you their scapegoat, any and every thing you do is going to be wrong.

[Legs]

CZ,

 I love it when you go on a rant about your sisters...I have three and two of them are batshit crazy.

Legs