Telling the Narc its over!

[lavender]

 
the time is drawing near...narcboy is still 4000miles away but needs to be told...
~time to let him in on the secret that I no longer worship the ground he walks on and that his children and myself would like to live happily ever after without him~

now comes the tricky part...I really dont want to see him face to face to deliver this news cos that would involve him returning here believing he is about to welcomed by his loving family...but this is rather serious and life-changing news and I am not sure if its ok just to call him up and tell him this...do the usual rules regarding break-ups  not apply when there is a narc involved?

what do you lovely people think?

[Imogene]

Tough one.  Ordinarily I think one deserves the curtesy of a face-to-face meeting for such news.  But I understand how you feel in this situation.

Perhaps you could write him explaining the situation, then propose a face-to-face meeting in a public space to discuss whatever he feels needs to be discussed.  I think he does deserve to have his say.  And there are issues you two have to iron out.  Like what if he wants to continue living in the house?  Or take custody of the kids?  Do you think either of those are likely outcomes?

[Freezer Burned]

The N should be the last to know. Preferably with a notification of divorce. Your lawyer should be the first to know. PROTECT YOURSELF. The N will (probably) suddenly become your worst enemy EVER, Ns usually try to leave you homeless and penniless, and try to take your children away from you just for spite. (unless it's more in his interests to appear to be a great guy).

[Imogene]

That seems a bit harsh, Freezer, and not in keeping with my narcissist's mo.  What do others think?  That said, good advice about having the lawyer beforehand.

[Freezer Burned]

That seems a bit harsh, Freezer

Well, Ns are harsh, better to be safe than sorry.
But I will go back and soften my message up a bit, to make it sound less ranty.

Unless you have been thru a divorce with your N, you might have no idea what they are really like. The mask comes completely off during divorce.

[Imogene]

I didn't mean, "harsh" as in harsh-sounding.  Your tone was totally fine.  I'm just wondering. . . I don't think Lavender's husband has any idea she wants to leave him.  It does seem wrong to deny him the opportunity to speak.  But I don't know, you could be completely right on this.  That's why I wonder what other people have to say.

[lavender]

oops...should have fluffed out my question to help put you on the same page as me...

Narcboy has little to no idea I want a divorce.  Sure he says it casually when he is having one of his famous meltdowns but I very much doubt his little self-absorbed brain would be able to read between the lines and realise I no longer worship him. As far as I can gather he expects me to remain the quiet loyal wife that I have been for the last 30 years.  He tells me I cannot possibly manage without him and that I couldnt earn enough money to support the family etc.  He is fairly certain I will remain because he has woven such a sticky web that I am trapped!
He will most certainly go ballistic when he hears the news and I will be the worst using biatch on the planet and I will supposedly have been having numerous affairs whilst he has been away (over 1 year now). I will owe him everything, I will owe him all the money he has sent in the last year plus anything else of his that has been sold in his absence.

We rent so there is no house to fight over.  There are only basic household furnishings, nothing fancy or expensive at all.  2 of our 3 boys are over the age of 18 and the youngest is quite happy here with me and has no desire to move or go be with his father (even for a holiday).

There is nothing for a lawyer to do here...I can apply for a divorce simply because of irreperable(sp?) breakdown, 12months separation and no desire to continue the marriage.

On one hand I believe this is something that should be handled in person but thats for normals...he is a narc.... he is going to suddenly turn into the horrid selfish narcboy on me etc and I doubt it will make not an ounce of difference how he is told. It will all suddenly become about him and how I have used/abused/lied/deceived etc. and how wonderful he is and that he is too good for me blah blah blah.

[Julia]

Lavender, I would speak to a lawyer first, absolutely no hurry to tell him until you are completely protected financially. For example, protected from him maxing out a credit card, from selling your car out from under you, etc. Just check with a lawyer, please, since the first appt is free. If he has ever been violent or spoken violently about women who leave their husbands....then please come up with an emergency plan, place to go, a few extra $100 saved up in case you need to leave your house/appt for a week to avoid his angry rants or worse.

Julia

[JennyWren]

With hindsight....I wish I`d protected myself and prepared myself for the onslaught.

BigBird turned from a simpering "Oh how I love you...when can I come home" vomit inducing greetings card writer....to a fire-breathing paranoid money-grabbing machine in the space of approximately 3 minutes.

I understand what Imogene is saying...in that in an ideal world it would be nice to have a conversation and give him a chance to behave..........however.....if he is the kind to behave, then once you carefully break the news to him....he will be receptive to a conversation thereafter won`t he!!

But, in reality he will turn into a snarling angry scumbag. And if he doesn`t....then we are all wrong and you can talk things through over a nice cup of coffee.

But, as the others said...protect yourself first as best you can. Anything goes with an angry N. It`s the only time they get creative.

 

[Legs]

I was told to leave while lucifer was out of town after all the threats he'd made...to "avoid" a "situation"...ask me if I felt bad that I left while he was on a trip. NOT A BIT. I had spent an entire year trying to understand his thing and figure out what was going on,....I really didn't know the extent of his behavior until I was long gone.


I would absolutely not feel like I had to reason with a monster or try to come to a happy understanding with someone who is out to destroy you....you must make sure you are safe, if you want to stay on this Earth, I mean. I don't think you owe him a thing if you are already living in fear about "what he might do"...that's a clear warning to protect yourself in whatever ways you can.


Legs

[MoreMyself]

I think with normal people in a normal separation the right thing to do is face to face and giving the other one a chance to speak.  With an N, I don't believe the normal rules apply and you need to follow your instinct.  Of course I am the last person who should be giving advice, apparently.  I was visiting my parents on my annual trip and had decided to discuss face-to-face my issues with the Hobbit when I returned which included asking for a trial separation.  The day I got home, he picked me up from the airport and was unusually happy.  Now it gets strange.  We got home and he had his suitcase at the door.  He announced that he was getting on the very same plane I had just got off to go to Canada to visit his family.  He had only just returned prior to my visit to my parents.  I asked why, he said he had unfinished business (this was after I found the condoms in his travel kit).  To this day I have never found out what the unfinished business was but I have a pretty good idea it involved a woman.

I tried to call him a couple of days later.  I couldn't get through, and when I phoned his sister's place he wasn't there.  So I emailed him.  Yes, emailed him, saying I wanted a trial separation.  Of course he has thrown that in my face over and over again. How I broke up with him BY EMAIL!

So if you want to be seen by others to do the 'right' thing, then wait for face to face and go through whatever horrors follow.  But in hindsight I probably wouldn't have done anything differently because he was avoiding me and I felt that there was no other way to communicate with him. 

If you have clear, alternate ways, if he is answering his phone, then I don't see why a phone conversation wouldn't be ok -  along the lines of telling him that you want to end the marriage and will be available to talk face to face when he returns.

But as the others have said, have all your ducks lined up.  Consult the lawyer, get your financial paperwork in order and if you think there will be issues over assets, make a complete list.  The more prepared you are the smoother the process will be for everybody. 

In the end I don't think it matters how you tell an N.  They will twist it around and in the retelling you will become the black-hearted assassin no matter how you tried to do it.

[lavender]

So I have been thinking after reading your responses...when it all boils down it probably doesn't matter how he is told then...because however I do it, I will be the bad guy anyway. I'd do it via email too if the stupid moron knew what his email account was and how to use it, probably shouldn't send a letter as he is staying with his parents and they read all his mail before he even gets it!
I have all my ducks lined up and have taken care of as much 'business' as I can...telling him and filling out the divorce papers is all I have left to do...

[alatariel]

Well, FreezerBurned's edited post was right, IMO.  My X, dickhead, is the most mild-mannered passive man on the planet, but he tried to take the kids and make me penniless and keep me dependent as soon as he realized I was really gone and not going back.  Protect yourself, and I wish you success! 

[CZBZ]

The N should be the last to know. Preferably with a notification of divorce. Your lawyer should be the first to know. PROTECT YOURSELF. The N will (probably) suddenly become your worst enemy EVER, Ns usually try to leave you homeless and penniless, and try to take your children away from you just for spite. (unless it's more in his interests to appear to be a great guy).

Freezer's advice (i only read the censored version, ha!) is right. Prepare yourself. Familiarize yourself with divorce laws (you can even do this before seeing an attorney) Get your finances in order. Find a support group. Find a job or prepare yourself for an occupation. Once you have restored your sense of control and power over your own life, THEN you are ready to deal with the N. If you have tried time and time again to make your marriage work, and if your complaints/concerns have fallen on deaf ears, and if you have sought counseling, self-help, couple's therapy, etc., then it's time to call it quits. IF you are certain that this is not a last-ditch ultimatum forcing him to conform or be divorced, then it's time to call it quits and tell him.

I wouldn't do it by email. I'd do it face-to-face, giving him the respect he needs and yourself the respect you need, too. You have three kids. Surely the demise of your family merits a face-to-face parting? Email is just sooooooooo anti-human. He'll tell everyone he can and tip the scales against you as some kind of heartless monster. Why give him any more ammunition than he already has?

I'm all about respecting yourself for having tried to forge bonds with someone as prickly as a N. Talk to him face-to-face as a courtesy to yourself. That's my two cents.


Hugs,
CZ

[pearlsb4swine]

Lavendar,
If I had it to do over again, I would have done a lot of things to prepare.  I would have made sure I knew what money we had and where it was.  I would make sure I knew what we owed to who.  In my case, there was money spent on girlfriends that we could NOT afford.  I would make sure I knew what got spent, and that I had all my statements and evidence lined up.  I would have snooped into his stuff a lot more than I did.  I say, snoop even if you are quite sure there's nothing to find.  And I would have talked to a lawyer.  And made some kind of plan about surviving financially during the immediate separation.

I am glad I had those difficult conversations face to face.  Once I had my wits about me, I was able to watch his face very, very carefully while we talked, and it was obvious to me by his reaction that the thing he cared about first and foremost was access to my salary.  It was painful, but I needed to see it and realize just who this person was that I was married to.  When I would be feeling sad and wondering if I was doing the right thing, that memory would steel my resolve.

Be strong, be strategic, be prepared. 

Pearls

[JennyWren]

This is an Aside. Apologies Lavender.

Hands up....big fat confession.

Just so as you know....my marriage DID fall apart by e-mail. I DID not have a face to face....OR telephone conversation. Although he repeatedly asked me to.

Why? Because NEVER in the entire time I had known the man had BigBird EVER listened to me....or allowed my opinion...or done ANYTHING but relentlessly pursue his own outcome during a conversation.

And while we were communicating by e-mail...there it was in front of me. Every time he twisted things..ignored my question...deflected responsibility and so on.

In real time...BigBird does this so quickly...and aggressively...and with disorientating skill. It is actually just plain HORRIBLE when he is in full flow. He is an unstoppable steam train. And what made it blow was that he had primed a Couples Counsellor ready to "Help" our marriage...he was coming to live back....and he was going to fix everything his way.

I said NO.

By e-mail.

And once it sank in that his barracking wasn`t going to work...he left phone messages so long the machine could take no more.

It was all the same pressure. Never once wanting to hear me.

So...no....I didn`t have the face to face conversation. I was not gonna stick my head out to get more guilt-making emotional abuse...and be trampled over like always.

It was my refusal to budge that exploded the d&d....full blown...like a massive tantrum.

We never had a civilised conversation about it.

Again...sorry Lavender for my blurting.

[CZBZ]

Gosh, thank you for disclosing that, Jenny.  I can see why someone might choose email as a way to put an end to in-person debates...or maybe even rage.


Hugs,
CZ

[JennyWren]

Yeah....sorry to go on. And on.

I`ve been having a wobble on the "Ooooh.....maybe I am in fact the disordered one" seesaw. And actually...remembering how he behaved in those e-mail exchanges...right there in black and white.....the excuses....the invalidation....the gaslighting.....the blame....the lying.

I don`t know why I forget this stuff.

Strange....because the admission that I refused to speak to my husband of 20 years about ending our marriage SHOUD flag to me how it IS me who is disordered. But I know exactly why I wasn`t speaking to him. And one would have to BE disordered to elect to have a conversation with a man who....without fail.....left me feeling wrong.....guilty......a failure.....and STUPID.

Plus he has proved subsequently that there is no point speaking with him....when he has repeatedly twisted things....attempted to manipulate me.....and no listened to a single word I said.

Apologies again for the hijack.

[MoreMyself]

Jenny, its uncanny the similarities between the Hobbit and BigBird.  I felt that the Hobbit had some kind of static in his brain that interfered with whatever I was trying to communicate to him.  After I emailed him that I wanted a trial separation (I was still labouring under the illusion that this might smarten him up enough to make him work at saving our marriage), he called or I called him, can't remember which one.  He was just baffled at this (to him) sudden turn of events.  Of course we hadn't been intimate in 10 years.  We fought constantly and barely spoke.  We had completely opposite views on parenting.  He couldn't wait to get away from me for his secret business overseas.  But he was baffled as to why I would want to end our relationship.  He couldn't or wouldn't understand any of my stated reasons so I finally blurted that I didn't love him anymore.  He got that.  It was the only thing that seeped through.  He then asked if I wanted him to come home early from his overseas trip.  In retrospect, it was such a passive aggressive thing for him to say.  His wife of 30 years just asked for a separation apparently out of the blue, and he's not sure whether to end his vacation early or not.  I mumbled something about not caring.  So he stayed overseas and finished whatever mysterious business he had going on.  Unbelievable, now that I'm thinking about it.  And when he came back he was in an argumentative mood, which he attempted to sell to me as conciliatory.  He would start a conversation and if I put forth my feelings, or brought up for example the fact that he had never accepted responsibility for the early physical abuse, he would argue that it had happened a long time ago and I should get over as that's what normal people did.  Everythiing I said was refuted so our attempt at a face-to-face ended in my anger growing out of control.  All he wanted to do was debate and win. And all I wanted was for him to leave. I was done.

I hate that I have had to take all the blame for breaking up our marriage, really hate it.  My oldest friends who knew him before our marriage, they understand because they thought he was a jerk back then.  They didn't expect we'd last as long as we did.  But everyone else just puts all the blame on a big old tray and hands it to me.  It's something I've learned to live with.

[alatariel]

I never actually "broke up" with dickhead, I just took the kids and left, b/c I was furious, afraid and traumatized and couldn't subject the kids to living with him any more after his "suicide attempt" or whatever it was.  I had already given him several face-to-face opportunities to "discuss" what was wrong with "us", which always led to arguments, blame, and ultimatums, and often tantrums on his part.

As for troll, I know it's a different situation, but I sent her an email stating that we should take our "friendship" back a few levels and just casually get together once in a while, which she answered with an email full of projection, and then a phone call where she rambled on about herself and her life and didn't hear a word I tried to say, and then she sent another email full of projection and that was enough for me.  I chose NC b/c I knew I couldn't stand up to troll in person and listen to the blame and viciousness that would ensue.  There was no way I was capable of that, I know what kind of temper she has, and I was so emotionally beaten down by her that I just had to cut her out of my life completely and abruptly or I'd never get away. 

[JennyWren]

So he stayed overseas and finished whatever mysterious business he had going on.  Unbelievable, now that I'm thinking about it.

Yeah....get your priorities right Hobbit. Incomprehensible logic they have. Just mind bending.

I see why they have to create the illusion that we were such terrible marriage wreckers...blah de blah. But what sticks in my throat is the way other people believe the BigBird version without EVER asking for my side of things.

When I talk about him (so help me) to "neutral" people....I am always keen to point out that he has his own perspective, and I can only give mine. When he talks about it...I am told...its all "I am the victim" and floods of broken hearted tears. Which I don`t do.

I wish people would be a bit more balanced in their views. Not his NFOO of course. I expect them to have condemned me long ago. They had already bought and built the gallows with my name on before I ever met them.

[lavender]

   All he wanted to do was debate and win. And all I wanted was for him to leave. I was done.

absolutely...this is what I want to try avoid especially in a face to face situation...
Thanks JW for your 'confession'...I totally understand why you did it your way...they dribble shite so fast that we lose where they are really up to, then they deny they ever said any such thing and we are left wondering "what did I miss?".


I have my job and have my finances all sorted.  I do believe I am as prepared as I will ever be.  Have done my Divorce homework, and have the kit with the forms to fill out all ready to go.  Have spoken with a lawyer and there is nothing else I need to take care of.  I have protected and prepared us (the boys and myself) as well as I possibly can.

I will let you know how it goes...

[Imogene]

I just caught up on this thread.  Jen, I wanted to say that I don't think you did anything wrong by emailing BigBird.  He'd already instigated a separation and started an affair and behaved abusively.  The conversations were ongoing. 

It was the same with me and X.  He also informed me in an email of his intention to separate.  He didn't want to be talked out of it.  I don't blame him for that.  I kept bringing up things he didn't want to think about, like our promise to parent my daughter together or the impact his leaving would have on me financially and how that would affect my ability to parent.  I was a thorn in his side.  So I can understand why he wrote.  When there is such a big communication gap, conversation never leads anywhere on either side. 

My advice to Lavender was based on some things she's mentioned in the past about the relationship.  She has always seemed to me to have a good handle on things, and since there has really been no on-going conversation between her and the ex, it seemed only fair to offer him that opportunity.   

But of course you know him best, Lavender, and I respect whatever you decide to do.  For your sake, I hope it all goes smoothly.

[JennyWren]

Hey Imogene....just ignore me raving in the corner about e-mails. It`s a sore, itchy, niggling point for me....with all the accusations that I can`t and won`t communicate and whatnot.

Fact is...in reality...we DID have the conversation when HE announced he had reached a tipping point and was off. We did in fact have all the conversations about commitment to his kids....the value of marriage....me trying to persuade him to try and work things out (before I knew anything of NPD...or understood that mad-gf was in the shadows)

And it was horrible. Because he kept saying....bizarrely...that he loved me....I was his best friend...but he needed more. And I kept saying...if it wasn`t so very terrible...and I hadn`t done anything wrong (he`s changed his tune now of course  )...why on earth would he not try to stay for the well-being of his daughters?

He just kept blithering about how he had these "drums beating in his head"...his "MLC". I suspect the sound of drums beating in fact was the sound of his heart pumping blood to his nether regions in anticipation quite frankly. The thought of the adoring constant gratification in that department was the only reason to skip off that made any sense THEN or now.

Off course I am infinitely glad that his crazy pig-headed decision to leap into the enthusiastic clutches of mad-gf has set me free of the N spell. But I am still processing the madness. And my part in it.

So...as I say...please ignore me. I am talking considerable muddled triggered nonsense. Still flailing about from my present state of upendedness...and still incredibly piddled off.

Especially...sorry to Lavender....who innocently posted about her intention to let her N know he is not coming back....and got me blabbering on about e-mails.

Do let us know how things go Lavender. You have made such a good job of becoming independent and taking control of your own life....that can only help. He really does have no power over you. Hope all goes well. 

[alatariel]

Lavendar, please let us know how it goes.