BigBird is on fine form

[Julia]

  Yes having company along really does make a difference. Last summer we had friends join us for outings, and there was a change, but that was the first summer they were even  willing to try (two years after they stopped going with him). So maybe this is going to change, and I should plan well for this summer and really remove  XN's ghost from our time outdoors together. It takes a bit of extra planning, and I love to be more spontaneous, but clearly it is worth the effort.

Julia

[Chime]

I asked because the kids and I have since been to the zoo I mentioned...
and it was kind of therapeutic for them
well, for me too, since I was mostly excluded by design
I was just wondering if that was something you'd experienced too
maybe you will banish those ghosts! 

Chime

[MoreMyself]

Julia, I'm reading a book about the brain and which part does what, etc.  I'm right at the section dealing with avoidance and your post about your girls avoiding the activities that their father took them on seems to confirm what the author said.  A little bit of early avoidance of a situation reduces anxiety.  I have a friend who was always a bit nervous about driving and 30 years ago nearly had an accident.  So he asked his wife to do the driving.  That worked to relieve his anxiety at first.  But here's the catch.  The author says that continuing to avoid a situation increases anxiety.  And the less we deal with it the worse it gets.  My friend kept up his avoidance too long and his wife went along with it.  He simply stopped driving and now in their 60s he waits for her to drive him everywhere because the thought of driving gives him panic attacks.  The solution for the brain apparently is familiarity and facing the fear.  His wife should have stamped her foot and made him drive after the first week.

The thought of doing those hiking/camping activities is now creating anxiety for them.  The solution is to repeat the action, to go hiking or camping again, over and over, until they are back in a non-anxious state about it.  Is it possible to do shorter outings?  To change things around a bit but to include some of the old activities, such as maybe if you used to camp, to stay at a comfy B&B and do a few hours hiking each day.  What about including them in the planning?  Take them out to a store that sells hiking stuff and see if they are at all interested. 

It's a hard one because you can only do so much.  Like my friend who refuses to drive, if they choose avoidance there might not be much you can do.

[Julia]

More, thanks for that info, because it does really feel like a deeply buried and serious issue. Almost like if they can avoid those activities, they can avoid how they feel about XN, and how he made them feel about themselves. And true confessions, I have quite a bit of it myself, centered around vacations more than outings. He was really, really sulky, just a huge dark cloud. That doesn't sound bad enough when I write it; it was like he hated himself because the vacation / outing was so disappointing, and blamed us, and yet kept it all wrapped inside.

We have a LOT of single 20-30 year old friends right now from church, and I am going to bring this up with them and see if some of them will try to go with us, or just with the kids and turn this thing around.

Thanks for all the advice, and sorry for the major hijack, Jenny.

Julia

[JennyWren]

Julia....your post was really welcome, and not a hijack at all, because your situation does highlight the really hidden nature of a covert Ns abuse on their children. It is iceberg-like....in that so much of it lies below the waterline...and I suspect the iceberg itself it unaware of the magnitude of it`s own weight...until it hits stuff and is thrown off course.

And it is the profound and deep nature of this hurt that I am really up against here. This is a good example...

And true confessions, I have quite a bit of it myself, centered around vacations more than outings. He was really, really sulky, just a huge dark cloud. That doesn't sound bad enough when I write it; Julia

It is incredibly hard to put into words and explain fully to neutrals what these guys do. I can entirely imagine how XNH made you feel...but it is a feeling. And it is hard to verbalise meaningfully. I suppose it is born of a thousand past accumulated experiences of the big downer that an N is...like a fire blanket that smothers happiness.

And... I see in my daughters faces...and hear in their voices that they NEED to avoid their father in the same way your girls need to avoid hiking, and biking and those paralysing experiences. Except...they can not detach the feelings from the man himself. He IS the CAUSE of those feelings.

When the continual pressure is coming at them...it is a little like constantly putting a bicycle in front of your girls and have them think about riding it every second of the day. It isn`t helping. It is embedding their repulsion of him still further, and highlighting the feelings about him never hearing them.

My daughter`s reactions are very conscious and they overtly talk about the extent of their feelings, so in that way their reactions are quite different, born of unique situations as they are. But the drip drip drip of the N emotional abuse is, I believe, identical. It is very nasty. And very difficult to help neutrals understand.

I can well believe that outsiders consider my daughters` refusal to see their father as quite bizarre. And, without talking to them...jump to the conclusion that a bitter mother is punishing the man who left her miserable company to find happiness with his true love. 

As BigBird has no mental health diagnosis....and being an N.....takes extreme offense at anything the least bit critical....I can`t even try to tackle the thing head on with all cards on the table. It is so frustrating I could genuinely scream until my head fell off.

[Never again]

Julia and Jenny,

>>  He was really, really sulky, just a huge dark cloud. That doesn't sound bad enough when I write it; Julia

>>It is incredibly hard to put into words and explain fully to neutrals what these guys do. I can entirely imagine how XNH made you feel...but it is a feeling. And it is hard to verbalise meaningfully. I suppose it is born of a thousand past accumulated experiences of the big downer that an N is...like a fire blanket that smothers happiness; Jenny

I'm with you both, and your children, so much here. I know exactly what this is like, as a child from my mother, and as an adult from you-know-who .. It doesn't sound so bad when you try to explain it to others, or look so bad to them when they see it .. "Yes, I suppose he/she was in a bit of a bad humour that day ..".

I think you've pointed out something extremely important, Jenny - the accumulated experience. The accumulated knowledge that when the day starts out like that it's going to continue like that, and all that that means, how bad it can actually get .. And the tension and fear around that anticipation .. And the accumulated pain and disappointment of past experiences .. the downer, the sinking feeling of here we go again, the dashing of hope that it might have been a nice day out if only ..

What it comes down to is control. Their mood controls the mood of everybody else present. That's a huge power they have. My mother has honed this to such an art that she literally controls us with just the slightest change in tone of voice. The slightest sharpness in her tone and we 40-, 50- and 60-year-olds are back in line in an instant. It's like a threat, and we don't even know what she's threatening anymore. But boy do we jump when she does it!

Again, I thank my lucky stars that my siblings are all just as aware of this as I am, otherwise I really would be straight-jacket material. As children we were each so alone emotionally, we didn't have the solidarity we have now. But somehow we all grew outside the family and then brought our knowledge and compassion back into the family for each other.

But to get back on topic .. I struggle a lot with places and people and activities I shared with el bastardo. I've avoided a lot this past year, in fact I've become really very reclusive. Not healthy. And yet I feel it will pass in time. I'm still working on the close to home stuff - getting my head and body back in shape. I know hiking (we used to do that too - a lot) would help with both of those, and yet I can't do it yet. Too painful.

[Rosemary]

Never again im the same ive gone all   reclusive ,it must be one of the ways of recovering from the bombardments of the N .  Jenny The NH here as not tomy  klnowledge been medically diagnosed ,he had lots of psychiactric appointments and counselling appts but i was never privy to what the causes or diagnosis were .?This annoyed me as i was the one dealing with it everyday ,and of course he wouldnt divulge any information that would put him in a bad light .*sigh* i do think the Wife should be told whats going on in these cicumstances ,never mind bloomin privacy of the patient .Someare just downright dangerous and we should know whats going on in their stupid brains .makes me seethe to be honest the things they get away with .
yes we got the sulking too when they couldnt get what they wanted .we went on a weks hols to lake district and because i wanted to keep on walking going further ,and so did the kids ,we had a big row about it .He kept putting me down saying you cant walk that far blah blah we have to walk back you know !!! this went on and on untili exploded and told him what i thought .He didnt talk to me for about 3 days !!! then gave me a sorry card ???as i wasnt giving in id had enough of his rubbish nonesense .
I know what it was about  ,he wanted to take kids out quickly then get back for his booze thats all it was about .Idiot !!
After we seperated and he lives in next town ,he would come over to visit ,usually when he wanted something .
when he arrived so did the" ATmosphere " you could feel it like a black cloud or fog comes over the house and after he went it lifted .I used to say to kids 
"Ahhh that  feels better now hes gone " and they agreed they could feel the atmosphere too  thats the onlyway i can describe  it

[Never again]

.He didnt talk to me for about 3 days !!! then gave me a sorry card ???as i wasnt giving in id had enough of his rubbish nonesense .

Typical. He knew he was wrong all along but not honest or humble or caring enough to admit it. I hate the way they would lure us into these power struggles. Even if you weren't playing the same game, you would still be totally caught up in it. What a waste of bloody time and effort (that could have been spent on a nice walk ...).

[alatariel]

Oh, yeah, dickhead could quickly ruin anything by his moods.  I especially hated it when he would "clean at me", what a way to ruin a weekend.  I could tell he wasn't cleaning b/c whatever it was needed to be cleaned, he was cleaning as a direct criticism of me, and b/c there were other things we could have been doing but he'd rather be a miserable poop and not do them and use the cleaning as an excuse if I brought it up and he deigned to speak to me.

And believe me, I know all about that "getting back to his booze" part.    I can't even truly imagine what it's like to have an addiction rule your life like that, to the point where you plan your entire days around it, and decline to do things b/c your addiction isn't welcome there.  Not to mention the inability to stop consuming whatever it is, even just long enough to watch the kids so your wife can run to the store for a gallon of milk.

troll could ruin any outing or get-together in a hurry also.  Her poor kids would get off the bus in the afternoons and quickly assess her mood to figure out if they should scurry to their rooms and hide.  I remember a couple of "family trips" we went on together, when troll didn't want to do something that everyone else in the group did, and how miserable she made us all, finding fault with everything about it simply b/c it wasn't her idea to do it.

[Chime]

same here...
most familiar!
so many examples... Disney?  Camping?  The Boatride?  hmmmm

OOO!  I know NYC and the Mtn Bike:
he bought youngest D a heavy mountain bike right after she learned to ride without training wheels... now she's very athletic and always has been, but she was little! 
and she wanted the pretty bike. 
The one with the sparkly purple and shiney silver ribbons flowing from the handles, and the basket on the front -- and the FOOTBRAKES! 
Again, she was so little! 

And so I point out - she has to tip this bike to touch the ground. 
OH, silly woman -- she'll be able to grow into this one -- it's the smarter investment! 
You're strong DD2!  You like this bike, right?  

But we could get her this inexpensive pretty bike until she gets more mileage under her belt.

No No NO!  We live near the mountains and railtrails. 
MUST HAVE MTN.BIKE.

So the manly red mountain bike it was, because he wasn't going to waste his money on some temporary bike.  It was the red bike or nothing!

THEN (or had he had this plan all along) he plans a trip for us to go biking in Central Park. 

Central Park?  Really?  My recollection was that you couldn't ride in the areas he was thinking you could...

No arguing!  He pulls that 'why are you argumentative card' out of his sleeve, and it works.  See, he knows a guy.  Guy told him that they had added lots of bike lanes and it would be amazing, and we could go to the...
drum roll please
THE ZOO!           
I needed to stop being a hinderance with his efforts to get closer to the kids (I think he said his kids...)  Why must I always argue and hinder?  How is he ever going to get close to them, if I keep getting in the way [oh, this right here, right now, as I type, just gave me an epiphany - I'll have to chase this thought down today - but if you guys have input = yes, please!]
sigh...

Now I am left with about 6 days to get this little kid up to speed on a mtn. bike before she's dragged off to NYC.  So DD1 and I take her out every day for a few minutes.  She puts on a brave face that is melting my heart, and keeps at it best she can. 

During one of these training sessions, she swerves and loses control of the bike.  It goes over - she bails and is fine, but the bike's gear control cracks.  She is distraught.  Dad will be so upset.  DD1 and I basically focus on her - whether she's alright and not to worry about the bike!  How well she's been doing, etc.  And it is at this moment I decide I am going to save my grocery money and buy her the pretty bike as soon as I can.

Dreaded day comes.  Off we go with a minivan full of bikes - still no pretty bike, so she's got the manly red one.  We park, pull out the bikes and head to the park.  Just heading to the park is full of fright and mayhem - not just for her.  Can't be on the sidewalk.  Upper West side one way streets and cabbies out to kill.      !!!!

We finally get to the park, and what do you know.  There are new bike lanes.  But they are in the middle of the full traffic lanes.  Both DDs are near tears.  Not that he could see it.  He plows onward, unaware that behind him, I have dismounted my bike so that I can hold onto DD2's bike and keep her safe.  DD1 and also dismounted and is walking her bike.  Drivers passing us are looking sad for us or shaking their heads, and occasionally slowing down.  He looks back at one point, and I can see - what?  something like fury or embarrassment on his face. ?

Deeper into the park, he takes us on a path to the zoo.  A short distance in, park rangers descend on us and explain that these are foot paths.  Get off the bikes and walk them.  He's pissed.  Rules don't apply to him, so as soon as he can get back on his bike and ride, he does.  And he's expecting us to as well, but we don't.  We have shamed him.  Not his poor planning.  We have shamed him.  And NYC laws, well, they're just stupid.

Finally we get to the east side, lock up the bikes and walk around.  This part was somewhat pleasant.  I have to say, I have been back with them since - just the 3 of us.  They make fun of the whole event from back then.  I admire their ability to do that.  They keep perspective pretty well.  What else can you do I guess.  But it makes me sad.  And it's hard not to get angry with myself about my role in allowing it.   
the trickiest part for me -- the part that gets stuck in my craw
is that if I made a suggestion to amend anything he'd thought of
I was accused of being argumentative
he could employ any number of tactics to get me to back off, keep his plan entact, and make whatever didn't go right (read HIS way) MY fault.   And that because of this flaw in my ability to see and to act
the kids suffered 

So, what do you guys think.  Am I dealing with a clusterB?  maybe even some anti-social aspects?  Oh, yes, to be sure I still spin around wondering if I have it all wrong...  if it's me

This was a bit of a transcendent effort for me - so thanks for letting me hi-jack the thread a bit, Jenny.  I thought about putting it in my journal, but it seemed to fit with the thread here... 
I would love feed back!

 
Chime

[alatariel]

geeze, Chime, is your XN another of troll's lost siblings?   B/c that bike trip you're describing is so much like her, right down to the "rules don't apply to me" behavior.  troll got our group yelled at in so many places b/c she wouldn't follow simple rules. 

ETA  troll, however, wasn't shamed by being yelled at.  She thought it was funny, and took it as a challenge, "didja' see them try to tell me what to do?  HA! You watch me tell them to stuff their stupid rules up their arse!"

[Chime]

actually, Ala, there have been a few things that you've posted about her that have made the little voice in my head say
ooo - I know that one - that's passive aggressive -- that's disappearing dad
or the like

he wasn't necessarily shamed at being yelled at -- he was ashamed of us.
at least I think so...   
I dunno, I am spinning today

Chime

[Imogene]

I've been reading this thread and wanting to respond, only I have my daughter this weekend, and this is such a big topic with so many intangibles, it seems like I can't do credit to it in any short space of time.

Julia, the way you felt about your ex is the way X felt about me, because I had a subconscious knowledge of his narcissism--that is, his expectation that he should be praised and honored for everything he did.  I was the dark cloud.  And I bet your exes (and Jen's) narcissism took the form it did because they developed dark cloud defensive structures as a means of coping with not being golden children in their narcissist families.  It's hard to be "on" even with your children, because you develop such a strong fear of engulfment when the narcissistic parent is counting on you for supply but doesn't even value you.  As an adult, you think the kids are going to engulf you.  And you can see that you are blowing it, which adds a strong level of shame: you say, "it's true, I really am a failure with people; even my kids can't relate to me."  I know, because that is how I was starting to feel with my daughter once X was using her for primary supply. 

I was able to rebuild the relationship because I am not a narcissist.  It really is that simple.  I have the capacity to care about my daughter's welfare and prioritize it, and I could see what was happening once I had the tools to understand it.  Also of course I once had a very strong relationship with her as the primary caregiver; it was only in the last couple of years that things started to deteriorate.  But I did my part in making the situation develop to that point.  I fell right back into the scapegoat position, with all the resentment and nursed grievances.  I can really understand where Julia's ex and BirdBird come from.   

Jen, I didn't start this message with BigBird specifically in mind, but as I type this out I can see that this is really at the crux of things, and I strongly urge you to consider how shameful this whole situation is to him.  He is trying with the girls, sending them puppy pictures and such--but he is not reaching out, trying as we would expect him to, because he doesn't want REALLY to try and fail.  (Whether he can relate to them emotionally is subject to debate--because of his disorder, probably not--I'm only saying that at this point I bet he is consciously withholding on some level out of fear of rejection.)  So he is testing them.  This is supremely childish, but that where he is emotionally.  When they fail his tests he lashes out at you.  He probably hates you for having a good relationship with them, because he has to see it as a competition and a battle for supply.  That's his lifelong training, and he's stuck there. 

I'm going to tell you what might work.  It might work if you write BigBird acknowledging how hard his situation is--how hard it is to be a parent whose daughters won't speak to him.  If you offer understanding rather than show frustration.  Don't offer to HELP him--insist that he has to go directly to the girls and give any suggestions as to how--just say you get his position and show empathy.  I could not play nice when X was actively attacking me, and I don't expect you to be able to, either.  But it's possible that this change in how you relate to him might de-escalate the attacks.  (It wouldn't hurt to have a record of such cooperative emails, either.) 

I have more to say on this subject, so much more to say.  This has really jarred a lot of stuff loose.  I mean, you all know my situation: X has been having a kind of romantic relationship with my daughter.  Less than a year ago she was fondling her nipples and flashing her panties at him and touching his penis whenever she could.  It's hard even to imagine we were there, that that was my life.  These situations they put us in are unbelievable.  Yours too, Jen.  It is unfair that we have to figure them out just to defend ourselves and protect our kids.  THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE PROTECTING THEIR KIDS.  THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE HELPING US.  Sorry to yell.  It's infuriating.





 

[Chime]

have fun with your daughter this weekend!
I, for one, will look forward to your added installments as always Imogene 

 
Chime

[Never again]

Chime, I can see it, the scene in Central Park. You looking after your children, him looking after his image. Because that's what it was all about really, wasn't it? He brought you all there to show the world that he had brought you all there. How dare you and the Central Park authorities not follow the script!

[Chime]

so he does seem clusterB to you?
I know this might seem silly, but I am really still spinning on this
sigh...   
Chime

[JennyWren]

Sheesh. I could write all day about what has been posted now since I last read. My heart is just crumbling at the images of little faces earnestly attempting to live life with these N parents.

Never again...I am inclined to quote your entire post and then just say "Abso-bloody-lutely!". And I am so pleased to think that even though as children in an NFOO you felt emotionally isolated from one another...your strength of character and courage prevailed....you made it through and became close after the onslaught....rather like all the springs and streams meandering their way through the countryside and finding their own level..to eventually come together as a strong deep river with a clear direction.

Your comment about the dominating nature of the Ns mood is truly insightful. That goes a long way to describing the jumpiness, tension and anxiety the Ns inspire in the home. Just by being in it. They don`t have to say a thing. It`s like they are a massive lodestone...and we were all little polarised magnets...we could not help but be pulled by the magnetic filed...and BigBird was North.

How that works I do not understand. How by being in a room you can subdue and control without uttering a sound makes no sense. And yet it was so. When he left the house....the tightness in chests left...the smiles flowed and the frowns of anxiety left.

What a way to live. And that...of course...was if things were GOOD! That is as good as it gets.

Rosemary....your example of walking in the Lake District is so horribly familiar. If it`s not all about them...then they HAVE to ruin it for us. A walk that you and the kids would have thoroughly enjoyed...became about the N. So much did you need punishing..that he refused to speak for all those days. What a BIG BOY! That sure showed you not to try and have a good time on holiday. And I think of your kids bewildered at a pointless bust up over a WALK they were enjoying.

What on earth do they think they are achieving with these hissy fits? Total control I suppose.

Alatariel... for you...because BigBird used to "Clean at me" too. I know EXACTLY what you are talking about. BigBird had a feather duster (Being a bird he would wouldn`t he). Now...I am not the most fastidious cleaner when it comes to cobwebs on the ceiling. Oh my word....this is a TERRIBLE HIDEOUS CRIME in BigBird land. With much tutting and angry face-pulling he would swish his feather duster this way and that like an angry little fairy with it`s wand....it had a very feminine action to it...and I had to hide my smirks while I was being admonished. Thus...he would flap dusty old cobwebs off the ceiling and send them floating in all their dusty glory to the four corners of the house...so now there were no cobwebs on the ceiling  ....but an entire house covered in filth from his dusting  .

At this point he would sit down and read a magazine. And I would have to dust the entire house before a small d ate the cobweb debris.

And chime....OH   MY   WORD chime. I am right there with you all the way with your bicycle horror story. Poor poor DD2. I wanted to buy her the sparkly tassly pretty bike SO BAD. Biking is a MINEFIELD with these idiots...I have a story in a minute too...but more importantly...first...just to say I could feel every feeling...hear every blame ridden word in your account.

It is a perfect example of how...if you explained in the same words to a neutral person...innocent in the ways of Ns...yes...it would be a clear story of a man in a "Bad Mood"....but..unless you know Ns...you don`t get that knot-in-the-stomach feeling I got...because I KNOW what that felt like. I KNOW how exhausting it is to try and keep going and looking after little ones under those conditions. It is like an endurance exercise.....and sometimes I felt as though just ONE MORE THING...and I wouldn`t cope. Because not only does an N not lend support...they ACTIVELY make things worse ALL THE TIME. And say you are fussing if you complain..or ask to slow down...or to have something to eat....or to rest a while...or to stop and look at the flowers.

I am glad you took the time to share that story chime. Though it probably brought back unwanted memories and unwelcome feelings. I always relive the rather panic-y feel when I relive such things. But your N was clearly very much out of the same covert mould as BigBird. And your experience was so recognisable.


My own bike story that sprang to mind...and my girls also suffered with bikes way too big....and in fact d1`s first bike was a BOY`s bike...because BigBird figured that if he had his longed for son next...the son could ride d1`s old bike...but he couldn`t ride a girls bike.

But my biking nightmare happened before the girls were able to ride fast enough and far enough for BigBird. So...we had a seat on the back for d2 (1 year or less)...and a trailer that attached to the back of BigBird`s bike for d1 (aged 3/4)

It was a freezing cold day....and so I had annoyed BigBird by taking too long to wrap the girls up in gloves and hats and blankets to keep them warm. Then...he was off. At Olympic track race speed. All is well for a bit....until our usual track looms in front FLOODED by a clear foot or more of muddy water. I am behind struggling to keep up...since BigBird is a big strong bazturd...and I am rather weedy. I can see BigBird heading for the deep water with the trailer low to the ground rumbling along behind.

You know what he`s going to do...don`t you! I didn`t quite believe he was THAT stupid...and I could hear d1 shouting "Daddy STOP Daddy STOP..the water is coming in!!"...but he DID NOT STOP. d1 was now crying...as the cold water began to flood the trailer...and she was strapped in for safety. I am yelling also for him to stop...and trying to ride through the slippy slurry he has churned up behind him. My bike slipped and fell...and tipped little one in the water. I scrambled to unbuckle her....all-in-an-instant...I have d2 in my arms hurtling towards the SMILING face of BigBird....who has now thankfully stopped....and who then calls ME an idiot for falling off!!!!

I couldn`t care less by now...and I`m rescuing d1....and making sure d2 is OK. Then...when BigBird has dragged everything out of the water...I wrap the girls in everything I can spare of mine that is dry..and sit them both together in the trailer and beg him to ride home QUICK to get the girls warm.

HE was angry at ME.

At home...we ran a big hot bath and all three of us girls warmed up together...while BigBird sulked about how I had ruined his bike ride.

I don`t mean to detract from or gloss over the other stories here....but this memory popped into mind reading your story chime. And the panic and fear of knowing that brainless Ns WILL and DO lump you right in it at any moment...to pick up the pieces and be the lone protector of the kids.

[JennyWren]

I took so long posting...a whole bunch more brilliant insightful stuff has appeared in the meantime.

I have to collect my d in a minute...but Imogene....THANKYOU. I do think you have a BRILLIANT point. I will have to come back to it...I will be late.

Chime....oh MY GOODNESS YES The man you describe is a total BigBird clone. I am not kidding...that could have been one of his expeditions you describe. The constant need to pass off his mess and make you the villain of the piece.

Post more stories chime. When I first came here...I didn`t think BigBird was an N himself. I knew his family were. By sharing things that have happened....you begin to realise what you have minimised.

I must go...or I will be for it from d2 for being late!

[Never again]

Chime, this story tells me (just another trooper ..) he has a lack of empathy and a disdain for societal rules, both of which are Cluster B traits. But whether he is or isn't pathological isn't really the most important thing, I think. It's how you and your children feel and have felt in his presence. That's real whatever anybody else says. Maybe telling the different parts of your story here will help you to find more clarity. But do everything in your own time. This is such a great place. There's no pressure on anyone to do any particular thing at any particular pace, and there's only understanding and compassion when we do open up (which is just as well because opening up the parts that hurt is scary!).
  and  for you

[JennyWren]

My head is whirling like a washing machine on spin cycle this evening. My thoughts are all dizzy. The G-forces have got my brain cells all distorted.

 

Jen, I didn't start this message with BigBird specifically in mind, but as I type this out I can see that this is really at the crux of things, and I strongly urge you to consider how shameful this whole situation is to him.  He is trying with the girls, sending them puppy pictures and such--but he is not reaching out, trying as we would expect him to, because he doesn't want REALLY to try and fail.  (Whether he can relate to them emotionally is subject to debate--because of his disorder, probably not--I'm only saying that at this point I bet he is consciously withholding on some level out of fear of rejection.)  So he is testing them.  This is supremely childish, but that where he is emotionally.  When they fail his tests he lashes out at you.  He probably hates you for having a good relationship with them, because he has to see it as a competition and a battle for supply.  That's his lifelong training, and he's stuck there.

This is a very potent observation...and I believe it is entirely accurate. I believe BigBird is motivated by shame. I have been aware that his attempts to secure contact with his daughters are largely founded on a need not to lose face....to be the successful father.

It had not, however, occurred that he does not give the attempts his "all" for fear of failure. This is entirely consistant with his fearful nature.

I'm going to tell you what might work.  It might work if you write BigBird acknowledging how hard his situation is--how hard it is to be a parent whose daughters won't speak to him.  If you offer understanding rather than show frustration.  Don't offer to HELP him--insist that he has to go directly to the girls and give any suggestions as to how--just say you get his position and show empathy.

This makes total sense. For many months I did take this stance. When he would come round to collect his pencil sharpenings or whatever...I would be very empathetic. We both knew he had trouble relating to children...and I supported him and comforted him. He seemed genuinely upset. I hadn`t known about NPD then...and I was giving him tons of advice about waiting until the girls were ready to talk with him...or yell at him..in their own time. I explained how important it was just to listen to them..not defend or explain or solve. Even though things were pretty horrid between us...I went the extra mile after mile for the girls sake. I thought I was investing in a future relationship with their father.

The point where this went wrong was when he started waffling on about his "rights"...and making Court contact orders part of the divorce. (About a year ago) I disagreed that that was a useful way forward...but he was set on it. And the more I explained how forcing your will would never gain the love he was looking for...the more paranoid he became.

I think my current problem is born of the fact that he is now so distrustful of me....and so sure I am evil...he will not listen any more. My last attempt was the day before we moved house...I spoke at length to him again about how I appreciated how unhappy he must be...and how his difficulty relating to them growing up was affecting things...and I was SURE to impress no judgement on him for that. He knows me well enough to know that I was genuinely understanding of his feelings.

However...I noticed on the last occasion a suspicion...and a hardness. Previous "chats" had seen him almost like a little boy begging for advice from the master. Though he would swing from the familiar trusting look...to a terrified paranoid look. the last exchange was very much a closed shop. He was suspicious of my motives.

I do think that with mad-gf and the NFOO on the case I no longer have a voice. He has even ditched his non-N brother and family. He is not speaking to anybody who the girls have opened up to.

The ironic thing is...when I am not wanting to dash his brains out with a porcupine...I do actually feel sorry for him. He is an idiot surrounded by idiots. And he is kicking the sh!t out of the very daughters he wants to get close to. It is bizarre.

I`m still thinking on this...and thank you for your thoughts. I suppose it is safer for him psychologically to go at the girls full force BY PROXY with a Court. If it fails to secure a relationship...which it will....he still does not need to be the failure himself. He still has a scapegoat.