BigBird is on fine form

[JennyWren]

Imogene...thankyou. Older daughter is happier now she has talked it all out...with me...with her Gran...and with her friends. And had a long hug-and-chat to finish up.

Younger one is fast asleep.

It occurs that I am stuck between two unimaginably vile paths....

The first is to appease BigBird by bargaining contact/knowledge/photos/ANYTHING about the girls so he can appear to the world....AND HIMSELF like an actual human....whose daughters can abide the company of.

The second is to put my head in the noose to allow the girls to have their feelings and needs met...and to remain as they are...with no contact with BigBird. To totally cut him off.


Having spent their lives imposing BigBird`s will on those poor girls...I can not continue to do so now. To do so would result in their having TWO parents who do not hear them. They need to be able to totally trust me...they need a parent who is listening and not bargaining with their painful feelings...even if it is photos...or information for the sake of my own convenience.

I really don`t have any choice. If the girls feelings are this clear....and they...and I recognise I allowed BigBird to call the shots far too much all their lives...I have to stand with them now. Totally with them.

It isn`t pretty. But their happiness and need for ONE rock of a parent at least clearly overides my impending trouble from BigBird....and make no mistake...he will punish me. 



 

[Never again]

He's a creep and your daughters are a credit to you. I don't need to tell you the following because it evidently comes totally naturally to you, but forgive me if I remind you .. All you have to do as a parent is give your children the tools they need to navigate their way through the world, calm or stormy waters. And you've already done that. You can't eliminate the stormy waters. And I don't want to minimize their suffering tonight, but it does sound like they're coping. D1 reaching out and sharing her pain with a friend sounds like a very healthy response to me.

You probably can't protect them much anymore given their age, but you can continue to support them and validate them.

Sorry, I feel I'm totally presumptious talking about parenting since I'm not a mother myself, but I do feel like a semi-expert because I've seen so much bad parenting at close quarters ...

I googled transactional communication. It actual exists. Something to do with taking account of your interlocutor's body language and the whole communication context .. It's probably very valid, which doesn't mean BigBird understood a word of it when they talked about it at one of his management courses.

[Rosemary]

sending love and (((hugs))) to you Jenny and your wonderful Ds .
the similar thing is happening here with my 2 grown kids .
He asks me for their email addys so i emailed back" sorry i cant as i dont communicate with them that way  ,you will have to ask them yourself ">>> tonight my youngest said he got a txt off Ndad asking to "Keep in touch ,can i have email ">>i asked if he had responded "No "he said cant be arsed ,!!! " and there you have it in a nutshell neither one wants to bother with him .Its not my fault or your fault ,its the stupid Ns fault for being such a useless father .

They both say why did i marry him ,and Lord knows i dont know why .wish i never did .
As you say there is no solution to this .Its N dads bday first week in march ,and S says hes not going to bother with him .Well you cant blame him as Ndad gave hime neither a bday or xmas present ,their will be a big fuss made i sps.
they make you sick sooo full of themselves .the kids can see straight through them .
  

[JennyWren]

Your words mean more than you could know Never again 

My instincts are very much in line with your post. And I do belive both girls are coping the best that their characters and ages allow.

I am just in turmoil because my next message to BigBird will have to be to ask him to speak directly with his kids. And I know this is what they have asked him NOT to do. We have talked about why I have to do this...and they appreciate that.

The younger one will just ignore his message most probably. While the older one will respond with a storm of protest. Neither response will look good for me....but both responses will be utterly authentic.

That`s all I can do.

Thanks Never again for giving me your perspective.... as somebody who has stood in these same shoes my daughters now find their feet squeezed into. This is not something I have experience of (My dad is just an emotionally distant strange guy....he is not malicious) I am sorry you too had to deal with this profound pain, as the girls now are.

[JennyWren]

Oh gawd Rosemary...HE`s off as well again! Really sorry to hear that.

It is such a horrible feeling when they stick you in the middle like that. It is like beig pulled back into their horrible controlling world that it takes every ounce of energy to scrabble out of.

Children are such a wonderful tool for control to an N. And that is SUCH a disgusting sentiment.

BigBird knows how much I love those girls...just as your stbxNH knows how much joy and love and laughter you get with your kids too. They want some of that...they want to take it....reduce your own pleasure...increase their own.

They just don`t get that wherever the girls are...they will love me...wherever your kids are...they will love you. But not one of them has love for their Nfather. Even if they are forced to be right under their nose.

[JennyWren]

PS I`m off to google transactional communication now. Great idea Never again!

[Julia]

Aw Jenny, I am sorry now for cutting the bazturd even an iota of slack or assuming he could be appeased so easily,  what with talking about the photos. Certainly, he is the biggest creep around and that is why they are so certain about him. Hundreds of photos to choose from and he chooses that one. And the girls know how he is with owning photos and preemptively refused to go there. That is something that never came up for my girls, but I was not married to BB. Again, sorry to add to the cognitive dissonance for today. You know what you have to do, and it is to stand firmly with them.

Julia

[Rosemary]

Thats right jenny its like the beatles song "cant buy me love " doesnt matter how much they offer  the N cant  buy the kids love, because  the kids know who loves them unconditionally  .  

[JennyWren]

Hi Julia...no worries....you have done nothing but offer your consistently outstanding perspective on all things N. I totally appreciate your thoughts always...in turn..I am sorry for rather snappishly responding about the photos reading back...I didn`t mean it that way. I was mad thinking about BigBird. Certainly not anything you said. 

[JennyWren]

And Rosemary....Soooo true. Ns will never "get" that you can`t just roll up in the teen years...or later..and decide to "love" kids when it suits. Those children have been there all that time experiencing the total absence of loving behaviour. That doesn`t go away.

[Never again]

>>I am sorry you too had to deal with this profound pain, as the girls now are.

You know, I wasn't even aware that was why the BigBird email storm was engaging me so much until you said it ..

It's his lack of care for the two girls that really hurts me. And the fact that D1, in particular, feels it so much. Her being able to articulate those moments when he was building the porch or whatever he was doing .. It's not the fact that he was building the porch that was the problem, it has to have been the way he rejected her when she approached him as he was building it. Like all the other times he must have rejected her. I know that stuff.

And right now I'm not sure do I know it more from my mother or my father or both. I certainly know it from el bastardo .. Anyway, my father died when I was between your two daughters' ages, so maybe that also has me feeling close to them somehow.

I'm glad I could give you something helpful. It's all about mutual support in the end, really, isn't it? Your ds find it in you, their friends, their Gran. You find it here. I find it back from you. And we all get it by just being authentic and revealing ourselves as hurting from time to time.

[JennyWren]

Never again  ....It was clear you identified strongly...which is why your perspective resonated with me.

Such a lot of bizarre and crazed behaviour has driven us all to seek one another out here....but the strength we can find together is life changing. I for one do not know how I would have dealt with ANY of this without the deep and soothing validation that pours from posts here each and every day.

[MoreMyself]

.Ns will never "get" that you can`t just roll up in the teen years...or later..and decide to "love" kids when it suits.

I used to tell the Hobbit without pulling any punches that our boys would grow up so fast it would make his head spin.  And he had to be committed on a daily basis to interacting with them.  Because unless he did, when they were grown up and gone they weren't going to feel there was any connection or even any debt to be repaid to him.  No investment, no return.  Unfortunately he didn't listen and it has turned out exactly as I predicted.  They are not interested in spending time with him, although they are polite to him.  They treat him like a distant relative that they see occasionally when it suits them.  I can predict your daughters will end up the same way, perhaps without the politeness.

[JennyWren]

That`s exactly my experience too. BigBird has conceded in past emails (ohhhh......there are miles and miles of them....if you joined all his words end to end you would....wish you didnt  )...BigBird his great self has conceded that I had discussed this with him since the girls were babies.

When d1 hit school age I was so concerned I had my first real attempt at MAKING him connect. Explaining how lost years would not come back....and be remembered.

As time went on...he did have an understanding of this..because he later came to me and BLAMED ME for NOT LETTING him connect with the girls. He said I deliberately connected with them deeply and spent too much time with them IN ORDER to keep him out...and he couldn`t compete with me.

So I sat down with the ridiculous loon (unaware of the painfully obvious twisting N-ish nature of this at the time) and told him I could see it was difficult for him to relate to too kids who enjoyed "pretend" games above all others....when he found imagination and spontaneous improvisation virtually impossible. When he did try and play such games (and he did try when he wanted to be beloved daddy)...he would ruin the game by trying to take over...and they would either stop and switch games to throw him off...or else overtly tell him to go away.

So I explained to BigBird that there were plenty of things they enjoyed doing that did not always involve role-play games...swimming...climbing trees....building models and so on.  And as d1 and d2 have always been the kind of siblings who tear shreds off one another 24/7 for sport..... I suggested he bond with them individually by taking time with each as often as he could and doing something to make them feel special with him. I really thought...since he HAD expressed a desire to be some kind of a parent that this would work.

But you see....I had misinterpretted his words. What he ACTUALLY said was that he wanted the girls to jump up when he got home from work and cry "daddy...my daddy" and beam their biggest smiles and lavish their biggest hugs. What he ACTUALLY was saying was he was concerned he was not obtaining sufficient supply from them.

I know this for sure....because if he really felt an instinctive urge to bond with his kids...I laid out the road map overtly for him...just as Ns like. Instead......he took them BOTH swimming for a few weekends in a row. Complained that he didn`t like "public swimming pools".....(I can only assume the impressive hairy belly he sported at the time was not getting admiring looks from the "yummy mummies"....so he switched to taking the girls horse riding. And he sat in his big fat BMW....wobbly gorilla tum safely tucked away...watching the girls go round and round on horses for half an hour. Even though they had begged him to get out of his car to admire their abilities.

Of course that too petered out. They STILL didn`t worship him....even after ALL that effort...the bazturds. And they were wrong...they were shutting him out...I was wrong....I had a little exclusive club going on. It was an issue which was often discussed...though I was coming at it all wrong...because I WANTED him to be the daddy the girls needed. He seemed to be saying he wanted to be that daddy. And I was always trying to Big him up to the girls and make it so.

I was soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooo wrong. And the more he failed...the more he blamed me. And I believed him...cognitive dissonance heavy in the air.

The girls did not like his company. When he would announce he was off on a trip for a few days...the girls were absolutely delighted. Looking back...there was a relaxation in them...a freedom. And when he returned they battened down the hatches again.

I was so blind. I thought they didn`t understand the genuine love of a man who found it hard to express himself to them in that way. I listened to his words...but his actions were VERY VERY clear. I think the girls were watching his actions. And that`s why they saw everything so clearly.

I feel terrible that they grew up in that environment. They did have heaps of unconditional love from me...my mum and stepdad.. (who they didn`t see often but adored)...even from BigBird`s non-N dad and stepmum. And from my brothers and their kids. So there was lots of love. But always this cold energy-sapping presence that effervesced with apparent warmth. That is to say...BigBird`s actions were...and are....supremely hurtful...while he talks the Mr Nice Guy game.

This is the backdrop of where we are now. BigBird is STILL wanting the rewarding supply of two girls on his arm. They are lovely creatures (when they are not screaming like banshees at one another!!!  ) with big blue eyes full of life and smiles. Very genuine and friendly smiles. People warm to them. So they make wonderful supply. He loved it when people would say those things like "They are a credit to you". Urghhh...can you imagine. 

And the awful thing is....here we are still...BigBird KNOWS I would be able to work a roadmap out for him. And he is trying to force me to do so. What he does NOT understand was that I UNKNOWINGLY helped him con the girls when I did so. Now I know WHY he cant connect...I won`t be helping him pretend to.

He doesn`t know this. I suspect that....though he will carry through his Court threat...his primary goal is to FORCE me to negotiate with the girls on his behalf. He knows they would walk over hot coals for me...and I for them. And he wants to use some of that. He sees it as power and control. Because he doesn`t understand love and freewill.

Sorry to go on and on so monotonously. It has helped to write all that out. It reveals no course of action. But it clarifies the issue. The bottom line is....those girls have had a horrid experience of their father. And they want him out of their lives. They saw his actions pure and simple...while I was stupid enough to listen to his sirens song of words.

[MoreMyself]

So I sat down with the ridiculous loon (unaware of the painfully obvious twisting N-ish nature of this at the time) and told him I could see it was difficult for him to relate to too kids who enjoyed "pretend" games above all others....when he found imagination and spontaneous improvisation virtually impossible. When he did try and play such games (and he did try when he wanted to be beloved daddy)...he would ruin the game by trying to take over...and they would either stop and switch games to throw him off...or else overtly tell him to go away.

Interesting observation and I wonder if others noticed the nDad's inability to relate on the level that the children needed.  We had matching sofas when the boys were younger with these big square pillows and they soon discovered that with the help of a blanket they could make a wonderful cubby house out of those pillows.  They'd play for hours in there.  The Hobbit would come home and take a look at what they had made and say "Can't you stop them making a mess?" 

It's natural and normal to want to be the fixer when the other parent is not engaging.  I did what you described for so long, tried so hard, but the Hobbit always played the push-pull game, sort of promising to engage then having something else to do when they'd try to get him to commit.  My oldest son had a friend whose Dad took him fishing.  My son got this idea that if he got a fishing box and a rod and engaged the Hobbit, he could have the same sort of relationship.  It still breaks my heart to think about it.  I found the tackle box my son bought in the shed a while back.  It was never used. 

When my oldest son was about 18, the Hobbit was having a go at him yet again.  Calling him a nerd, saying he couldn't get dates with girls.  Laughing as though it was a joke.  My son just ignored him but after the Hobbit left the room he said to me "Why did you marry him?"  I laughed nervously because I thought maybe he was joking, but he repeated it, saying 'Seriously, why?"  I think that was the moment I knew the game was up.  They saw through him and had for a very long time.  I resigned my role of negotiator and stopped pretending there was any shared parenting going on.

It's heartbreaking, it really is.  All we ever wanted was a Dad for our children.  A real Dad, not an nDad.

[JennyWren]

Oh my ds would have been right in there in that pillow cubby house. I bet they would hae gotten on like a house-on-fire with your boys. But....exactly the same thing happened with BigBird...all he saw was a mess.

There is actually an argument between us encapsulated in DVD form from home movies in which BigBird had bought an electric piano (since he is tone deaf and can`t play a single tune)...and it came in a FABULOUS cardboard box. Of course the kids couldn`t care less about the racket BigBird was making on the piano...but the box quickly became a cottage in the woods...with cut out windows with shutters and cloth curtains...and chimney stack....you know the drill.

At the end of the day..when the girls were off to bed...BigBird announces that he is throwing the box out "Because it is a fire hazard". I am heard protesting on the video....saying does he expect that it will spontaneously combust?...and he continues to insist that it would "go up like a haystack." It is very sad...because on video taken the next day...the box cottage is gone...and the girls are dancing to the pre-programmed piano music.



The moment when your own children look at you and ask in all seriousness "Why did you marry HIM????" is very sobering. I think I do now get that the girls were immune to BigBird because when faced with the cognitive dissonance that presented from the gaping chasm between his verbal expressions of "love" and his actions...the girls believed their eyes..not their ears. 

It is REALLY hard to explain how I was fooled by somebody who is very clearly fake to them. It makes me feel very stupid. My best defence I can muster is that BigBird aimed an awful lot of contolling and manipulative weaponary at me. A least I know from WoN that I am not alone in what happened. And that nobody here IS stupid...but that Ns are exceptionally skilled.

If they put 1% of the energy into being a father that they do into manipulating people......they would have been spectacular parents.

[alatariel]

It's been fascinating to read this thread, but I've refrained from commenting b/c my boys actually want to spend time with dickhead, and he's always done stuff with them. 

BUT, true to his Nature, his relationship with them is more like that of a fun and irresponsible uncle, who doesn't have kids of his own and doesn't really know how to relate to them.  He shows up when it's convenient for HIM, and does things with them that HE enjoys, and treats them like he's a fellow teenager, rather than being a parent to them.  He didn't have a clue what to do with them when they were little, and he doesn't have a clue what to do when they don't want to do the same things he does. And it's definite that he won't go out of his way for them, or miss doing anything HE wants to do just to spend time with them.

[JennyWren]

I dunno Ala..which is more painful really for kids. Knowing what their parent is and trying to escape the pursuing madness....or yearning for their company and wanting them to be a dad, and being thrown only the scaps dickheads such as dickhead can be bothered with.

It`s pretty hard on them however it manifests. And I am sure there are any number of unique N parenting balls-ups all over the planet.

Whenever you post about dickhead`s horrific parenting...he comes across as an almost openly self-centered pr!ck. The dig about your son`s grades particularly pizzed me off....because he showed NO concern at all for your son`s feelings. All that bothered him was a score on a piece of paper.

[alatariel]

Well, regardless of how they relate or don't relate to their kids, what stands out about all N's is their selfishness.  Their kids aren't important enough to them for them to put the kids first.  The N will always come first in the N's life.

The rest of us know that we have to sacrifice our wants and often our needs for the kids' sake, and that we have to do things the kids don't like in order to help them learn to be good ppl.  We know our kids need to be able to trust us and count on us, and we act in trustworthy ways.  We see, hear and validate them as individuals with their own personalities.  None of the N's are capable of any of that.

[Rosemary]

I noticed the Ndad in  my kids case was very good when they were babies  feeding /changing /lulling off to sleep etc ive got lots of pics of him holding babies  he was really good .

as they got older he was less interested  especially in the D
with S he decided to do dangerous  stuff like climbing ,wild camping, canoeing marathon walks ,a lot of these escapades would end in somesort of disaster as he was soooo stupid .,
so i was always on edge when he took S away on an adventure as he was so irresponsible  .
so maybe its better when the Ndad doesnt take them out ,he was always drinking too by the way during all these adventures .
As ive said to Jenny before, my D said she had DAD ENVY when she looked at her lovely friends dads .
they both also said to me "why did you marry him"?and "what did you see in him "?  well ive got No sensible answer to that question cos i dont know the answer myself       

[Chime]

oh dear God you've all been having relationships
with disappearing dad!   
is THAT where he was going all those years?
or does he have a bunch of siblings I didn't know about
(oh - right -- I remember, they all came from the mother ship)

Jenny - a "man" who's threatened by and jealous of a box 
and needs to eliminate the resource for this wonderful creativity your beautiful DDs exhibit.  WTF!

More Myself - no investment - no return, wow.  really hits home.  I remember once shouting on the phone at disappearting dad during one of his disappearances, that he was missing it all, and if he didn't show up it was going to be too late and he'd regret it... but I think only the crickets were listening. 
why did I  bother 
in hindsight, I shouldn't have bothered.  I kept it glued together for too long.
It's much more pleasant
and much less stressful just hanging out with the crickets
they're much less dramatic and crazy-making!

Ala -  yes!  the fun irresponsible uncle!  YES!  When disappearing dad decided he needed to strengthen his image, he'd take them to the zoo.  Now they like the zoo, to be sure.  But that was it.  Just the zoo.  I have often wondered what it was he was working out at the zoo.  (it's near where he grew up)
And he'd try hard to plan this at the last minute, and in such a way that I would have to work and couldn't go.  He was Mr. Fun-Guy and I was all work work work.  OY!  DD1 told me recently that she knew what he was up to.  That he even tried to imply that he'd let her life be a whatever-you-want scenario, but that I was the hinderance. (such a wench am I!) She told me she realize at that moment what kind of future she'd have if that was her life.  She said she knew who it was that knew her favorite color, listened to her troubles, or helped her with her homework.   What a kid!   

And though my DD1 doesn't want to talk to him (she's older), DD2 is a lot like your DD2, Jenny.  She's had less of him than DD1, and has watched DD1's responses in the past, I s'pose, and has taken the 'you left, so LEAVE' tact.

And I too so wish I hadn't been such a gullible idealist and put them in this position by choosing a disordered-disappearing-dad.  But I stop and remind myself, I was 19 and pretty protected and naive at that point.  I was idealistic, and that's not a sin.  I believe people, and that's NOT a bad thing.  I still wish I had a magic wand and some cure-all salve, (I'll always be a bit of a magic thinker) but I don't.  I can only do the best I can...

All to say, as has been said before
looks like we are certainly not alone
and in fact seem to be in THE BEST OF COMPANY!
and DSM be damned - whether Cluster Bs are deleted, or added, or tweaked
we are a serious series of practical real-life examples of the reality of all this
You guys are all amazing and corageous people! 
It's a priviledge to know you!
      

Chime

[Julia]

I have a question--- remember my XN had the girls for almost 40% of the time for 1.5 years if you average in the two weeks he had them in summer, week at Xmas, etc. In other words he did not have them 40% during the school year, but they were with him for long periods on holidays.   He did try to do a lot with them during that time. It was nearly constant motion to stay out of the house, and in the house he disassociated as previously described. But....they now hate all of the things they spent time doing with him. Biking. Skiing. Hiking.  It is like they go numb at the very mention of these activities, their mood can change from eagerly thinking about planning the day, to wandering off when I suggest a short beautiful summer hike. Here's the thing... I know he did not beat them, or scream abuse at them, or sexually abuse them on those trips. The reason they have such bad but almost unconscious memories, was the cold disappointment on his face, the sense that he wished he was elsewhere even after dragging them along and they were trying their hardest to climb 10,000 ft peaks at 7,9,11.  It was his neglect and their cold fingers, empty stomachs, thirst, while he had gloves and food that they didn't care for, wouldn't eat, and so went hungry. And I know this ..... not because they told me.....but just because my gut knows it; we used to do these things as a family, and I took care of the kids, could tell that he would just let it slide. After the trips alone with him, they wouldn't speak much about it, or tried to make it sound kind of fun, they were certainly proud that they tried so hard.... and yet the proof is the numbness, the avoidance, still, all these years later.

So, does any of this resonate, and has anyone had any success separating the stigma of the abuse from activities that have such bad memories? CZ, any ideas for resources?

This whole  issue is particularly depressing to me this morning, like an exhaustion, all of the responses combine into an eerie flashback. ....   XN's parenting was a toxic mix of what you have all described, and I feel so tired even thinking about it. I guess I am very glad that the marriage ended before they got old enough to ask me why I married him. And afraid that it wasn't quite bad or obvious enough, and we might never have figured out it was him... we might have all just dried up and blown away. So I am thankful too, that he wants so little time with them now, but afraid that it is still too much, cuz you know how hard it is to heal when you are still in contact with the abuser.  It feels like overwhelming sadness of what my girls have missed, what all of our kids have missed, it is beyond words. And yet, really, I should just be feeling relief at being spared an even worse fate. 

 Thankfully, two of my girls had friends over last night and they are all wrestling, having dance parties, etc. in the other room right now. IOW, all is well, and they will even clean up when I ask, because apparently not many moms put up with these high-spirited type affairs.... Thankfully XN was physically/emotionally absent when we were at home, and home has not been as tainted with his disapproval. We can be fully ourselves here, homebodies. Any yet, I long to take back the hills, take back cycling, swimming in rivers, swishing through the snow. I don't want him to have any part of our lives still trapped in his disapproval.

Julia

[Chime]

Hi Julia!
  I wonder, have you taken them to any of these places since - just you and them?

Chime

[alatariel]

It sure resonates with me, Julia.  I'm the one that always took care of the boys, made sure to bring things like snacks, mittens, extra clothes, etc.  I made sure they were fed at reasonable intervals, and got some "downtime".  Dickhead has never been capable of those things.  He feeds the kids when HE is hungry, makes them go to bed when HE is tired, and never considers that they're younger and smaller than he is and can't keep up with an adult.  He was so very bad at it, that I am not proud of the fact that I enabled this for 3 years after I left him by going places with him and the kids, for the kids' sake.  I rationalized that they wouldn't be able to do these things and wouldn't want to spend any time with dickhead if he wasn't capable of taking care of them, and that it was up to me to keep him involved in their lives.

I'm not sure what would have happened if I hadn't done that.  I wonder if he would have faded out of their lives b/c taking them for visits was way too hard for him and he didn't want to be bothered.  He has always put everything else ahead of the kids, I'm sure he would have found plenty of excuses not to see them.  Or it may have been a surprise, maybe he would have "manned up" sooner and started being responsible and had a better bond with his kids?  Yeah, he's an N, but I'm an eNabler, and it was probably my way of insuring his continued dependence on me.

Oh, geeze, I hit "post" before I really thought about what I just typed.  I don't want to derail your thread, but was THAT ever an ugly truth to face.  I honestly never saw that side of my behavior before, I thought I was making a decision between the lesser of two evils, when all I was doing was trying to manage everybody's life for them instead of letting them live it.  Dickhead was no longer my problem and I should have realized that and acted like it, and cut the ties.

[JennyWren]

Julia...what you wrote really does ring bells with me. Clanging alarm bells sadly.

My two will not so much as go for a walk by the river any more. BigBird`s thing was "Right..we`re going for a family walk now!"....and I would have to get the little girls all dressed up for the cold etc while he huffed and said to hurry up...and what a fuss...while he did not put on one glove...or find one welly boot...

On a walk with me..the girls would linger for bone-numbing hours looking down a rabbit hole...or building little boats for a stream. With BigBird it was more like an army march.

And that`s what he did when I WAS there. Nothing is fun with these people. My girls just refused to do stuff with him by the end. Just flat refused. I had to go walking with him every night after work..and listen to him go on and on about mad gf. He walked so fast it was all I could do to keep up. And he said he thoroughly enjoyed those walks.

I can easily see why your daughters would have the chilling reactions they do. And why you feel concerned. The covert N behaviour is profoundly weird. My girls didn`t ever spend prolonged periods with BigBird...and...like XNH...he didn`t overtly abuse them (though he did during the MLC)...and yet...their revulsion is MAJOR. It is not flippant. It is not a whim. It is deep set.

I have no doubt that effects you are seeing in your daughters..and the reactions of mine to their father are born of the comparable experiences of covert emotional abuse. I do not believe it infiltrates every area of their lives so long as it has been counterbalanced by a stable loving relationship with the other parent. But I do believe it hurts in ways it is difficult to comprehend.

I think it is only natural for mothers in situations like these to feel terrible at what happened under our noses. But we did do the best we could with the information we had at the time. And we all continue to do so.

How to undo the negative associations with activites the N has soured? I have no idea. I haven`t even dipped my toe in the water yet.

We do do things very differently now generally. I know the girls do happily go on walks if we have visiting family. I wonder if your girls might feel it fun to ride bikes in a big group with friends? I wonder if that might water it down for them. I`m just thinking out loud. I can imagine exactly the ceasing up reaction to instinctively avoid memories of the N experience.