BigBird is on fine form

[notakennedy]

In his world....he is so terribly hard done by....

  .. Exactly.   When it comes to NH's estranged children, he is the innocent casualty of his ex wife's apparently deliberate plan to cut him out of his children's lives.  When it comes to financial issues, he is the innocent casualty of people taking 'advantage of his good nature'.  When it comes to the sad and pathetic excuse left which we call our marriage, he is again simply wounded and mistreated, after all WHAT DID HE DO WRONG????? Or perhaps, what could he POSSIBLY have done wrong???  Never taking responsibility but very quick to assume the victim role.  But also ever so quick to employ vindictive tactics such as BB and his threatened 'take it back to the lawyer' approach to seeing children who clearly don't want to associate with him (as he has never given them anything of substance).  NH is still convinced that his ex wife continues to influence a 32, 28 and 26 year old.  I say their reaction (or lack thereof) towards him is purely the result of their coming to terms with the sort of person which he fundamentally is.  A person without any real affection for anyone or anything which does not stroke his ego or fall at his feet in reverence at his perfectness.

[JennyWren]

OK...I think I have this now.

Honey`s reply would be ideal...."This is between you and your daughters."

And I will send it near the "Deadline"

I will let the girls know he is on the warpath. It will just not register on the rage-ometer with younger d...because she doesn`t care what he thinks...and is much happier without him in her life.

Older d will bounce off the walls. She wants to get the police to charge him with harassment!!!!!

Both girls are very sensitive souls.....and they have a "feel" for him that repels them. They always did to be honest. Especially younger d. She says her first memory of him is an overwhelming urge to just kick him away. It`s not great.

So....I will resist the urge to communicate anything other than Honey`s line. It has all been said before anyhow.


notakennedy...the "victim" act is just so tiresome and draining. Nothing you do or say will ever convince these mindless gits otherwise. It really is beginning to have the feel to me of an insane person insisting that potatoes speak to him. It doesn`t matter how much logic you throw at it...you can`t even scratch the surface.


Overwhelmed...my experience with babies was exactly as you describe. BigBird was unable to help at night EVER.....and I mean NOT ONCE...even when they were sick and whatnot all night...because he had to go to work...and he has trouble getting back to sleep don`tcha know! But when I was exhausted from a bad spell of night time baby tending...he would still want sex.

Ar$ehole.

My younger d used to wake every morning at 5am like clockwork for a year or more when she was a toddler. Didn`t matter what time she went to sleep. 5am was her wake up time. BigBird wouldn`t even turn the heating on because he didnt want to waste money. So we sat under a blanket and I read her stories as she snuggled quietly so as not to wake her school age sister.

I did eventually come to treasure those times. After I got over the resentment of having no help.

When the elder d was born....I would leave her in all innocence with BigBird for an hour or so at weekends when she was old enough (I was breastfeeding)....and leave instructions when to give her her apple puree or whatever...and when to put her down for a nap....and I would return to find he had wasted the food by heating it through but not feeding her adequately....and that she "had`t seemed tired" at nap time.

He cleverly made me know that she would not be looked after...so I`d better not leave her.

It did not take long before she....and later her sister...just avoided being near him. And he them.


I don`t know where this will all lead. But this is just the result of his poor parenting....and sorry attempts at being a human generally. I will NOT be put in the middle ever again. IF he wants to talk...he must talk to them.

[Chime]

I feel compelled to add that you might really want to consider adding the
fact that you're for option #1 - but that it's between him and the girls...
I say this only from an experience I have had where things were dropped because my emails were explicit
Making crystal clear that you're not the obstacle in spoken (would he record it?)
and written form, in the minds of the girls, etc., may well help to stop the course of
legal actions

just something to consider -- you'll know what's the right thing for you to do
 

Chime

[RB22]

Funny, when the kids were first born... he made arrangements with his parents to stay over on a fold out couch to help me take care of the babies at night.  I love his mom, don't get me wrong.  But asking 2 late 60 somethings (with bad backs) to sleep on a pull out couch.. wake up several times a night (I had twins) to help feed the baby.  His mother made everyone breakfast, he went off to work, and they drove an hour back to their house... only to repeat the process the following night.

I just thought of that.... Wow.

I agree with Chime... state in your email that you are for option 1, but his relationship is between him and the girls.  It sends him a message he WON'T get (because it doesn't fit with his victim profile) It also sends the message to his attorney that the story that YOU are the problem between him and the girls... might NOT be true.   And maybe if his attorney can read the writing on the wall... and hand BB the rope to hang himself.  I know X's attorney did that on one or 2 occasions.. he explained exactly what the kids reaction would be to X 'adjusting' the interpretation of the marital settlement agreement.  And Made SURE X understood what he was saying.  X did it anyway and he is surprised that his girls one by one... have given him and new name and it isn't 'daddy dear'.   

Of course I am blamed for that.  It used to bother me... now if someone asks.. I tell them exactly why the girls have little to do with him and it has NOTHING to do with me and more to do with promises he made and didn't keep.  But he thinks it has everything to do with his divorce... no X it has everything to do with AFTER the divorce!

Sorry... must've been reading Nstuff before going to bed... had dreams of X.. woke up on that side of the bed this morning.... going in search of caffeine. 

[Imogene]

I'm glad you came up with an excellent game plan so soon.  There's progress, eh? 

You know, it's funny.  I didn't immediately think of how he was still trying to get you to mediate his relationship with the girls and that THAT's what this is about.  I was thinking about the girls, and how they are unheard by him, and my first reaction was "How can they be heard?"

But now that I think of it, X loves to drop bombs on me whenever I'm at my parents or with my best friend's family.  The idea that I have a support system (am independent) must be threatening to him, or he wouldn't deliberately seek to intervene at those times.  So now that the divorce is final, BigBird is suddenly rattling your cage.

Yep, it makes perfect sense.  Because it couldn't be about the girls.  It has to be about the bird.

[pearlsb4swine]

But now that I think of it, X loves to drop bombs on me whenever I'm at my parents or with my best friend's family.  The idea that I have a support system (am independent) must be threatening to him, or he wouldn't deliberately seek to intervene at those times.  So now that the divorce is final, BigBird is suddenly rattling your cage.

Yep, it makes perfect sense.  Because it couldn't be about the girls.  It has to be about the bird.

I could not agree more.

A book I read recently about divorcing a N made the point that the N x or soon to be x can be counted on to act up any time something happens in the divorce process that causes them to lose control of you.  Like when the divorce is final.  They find something to poke you with, because they can't stand losing power over you.  I found that to be very true, and that I could predict when he would try to stir up some trouble.  In my case, I was very very fortunate that my kids are adults, so there was no way at all for him to make any legal threats about them.  But he did  a lot of whinging and whining about property and bills that was a lot of fuss about nothing.  He would complain to his lawyer that I wasn't doing what I was supposed to do, or that I wasn't doing it fast enough.   

Also agree with Honey--Ns hate it when they don't have a go-between to smooth things over for them.  Because they have no idea how to repair a damaged relationship themselves. 

[RB22]

Because they have no idea how to repair a damaged relationship themselves

My X may not know how to repair a damaged relationship... But he has been given instructions on how to do that MANY times.  By me, by the girls therapist, by my lawyer, his lawyer, his friends, his sister, even his niece.  He doesn't complete step 1 of the process and he expects to be forgiven.  It worked when the girls were younger... as they get older (and the N injuries are bigger), repair requires giving them a voice in the relationship, and hearing that voice.  My X is seeking control... not equality with his kids.  Everything he does in relationship to them - comes with conditions. My kids fall into 2 different groups... 1... they have nothing (or very little) to do with him. or 2. They play the conditional love game right back at  him.  He thinks the world of those kids who use him for what they can get. 

I hate that they do that to anyone, but I have also come to realize... treating his love like a business deal is probably the only way TO deal with him and still keep sane.

An Aside:   I have a small framed postcard on my wall....

Irish Diplomacy: The Ability to tell a man to go to H*ll so that he looks forward to the trip.   

I think those kids who business deal with X will be great diplomats.

[Julia]

Jenny, You have the custody thing handled, lots of good advice..... but contacting legal aid sounds like a good idea, especially if it takes a while to get assigned to someone......

What I want to bring up is his motivation... I don't think that he feels any hope for a r/s with his kids, (nor any real desire for a r/s), and that this battle is ALL about having something to focus on with mad GF (or other potential OW down the road). Not having any contact, no recent pictures, or knowledge of his daughters lives leaves him out of the mainstream of men, actually it makes him look like the loser that he is.  That equals failure, and failure is not an option. Picture this.."Gosh GF, I am such a sensitive man, so unlike that oaf you left, everyone loves me.. except my little girls who would rather hide out in a tank of sewage rather than spend the night at my place...." So motive number one is image, but you know that already.

 Even more important, having this very important "crisis" gives him something to center his life around post divorce, and gives him, (and GF, and others), a believable reason for why he is not happier after the divorce. Ns are ALL ABOUT being madly and ridiculously satisfied either for real or fake. Even MY XN was all about that, and he is really not known for happiness. But after losing the ball and chain of living with me; he just HAD to pretend that everything was going to be so fabulous with his GF and his darling daughters who were finally free to spontaneously become famous ski-racers etc.... Otherwise....leaving me was a mistake, and I wasn't the harpy that he believed (lots of black and white thinking, obviously).

And there's more..... Hypothetically, let's assume that things are not going too well with mad GF; she is needy, and crazy, and sulks, and blames; at least some of the time. Heck, maybe she doesn't like to put out 24/7 now that the blush is off the r/s. Having a focus for their unhappiness (YOU), breathes life into their relationship by giving them a reason why they are not perfectly blissful. "If only BB wasn't so unhappy not seeing his girls..... then we could be happy, be a family". At the same time, it gives BB a very good reason to stay at stage 1 of the r/s with her, the stage where she has to court him....  and because of his crisis, she also has to soothe him (in bed and out). He's gotta love having the excuse to be a needy wanker who takes and takes rather than happily starting a new life with GF, planning for marriage, etc.

 I am guessing all this because it is too similar to what I went through. I'll spare you the details. Suffice it to say, at this point, after blaming XNs continuing problems on a variety of things, (mostly me),  GF has convinced herself and my XN (actually i think he just plays along to keep the status quo), that the reason he is still so depressed is because my youngest d is the devil's spawn (her words); that I am a horrible mother who spoiled her/them rotten to the point that he has to disassociate around them to avoid the pain of it all. Meanwhile other parents ask me how I managed to raise such great kids despite everything, and they are getting even stronger the longer they have been very LC with XN.

Certainly it could also be about XMIL and XBIL, as well as work associates. THis gives him something to talk about when they ask about the divorce, and a reason to not be as happy as he expected himself to be (and as happy as others expect). It is true that the world somehow, even now, expects people to be fabulously happy  and moving onward and forward within months of the separation. XN gets that pressure as well, it just hits him harder than it does us since image is so important to Ns.

 I want to suggest that BB does know that he blew it with the girls, does remember ignoring them for years, that he doesn't even LIKE kids, let alone his own who expected him to do things to be a certain way. He rather purposefully stepped away from them on a daily basis for years and he hasn't forgotten that one bit. He probably is completely confused about why anyone even tolerates kids. But pretending to want his kids is working for him, and so he will keep this up.

Julia

[JennyWren]

There is so much that really does touch me in all the posts here. All the similar experiences. I must thank you all once again for taking the time to share those thoughts and experiences. I do feel resigned to the fact that he is BigBird....he is very much the archetypal N....I did EVERTHING in my power to avoid all this....and yet he is really up for a fight.

I can`t change that. So I am determined not to stress over it. Much. 

Chime..I think you are right.....I will add a line to my reply just to restate that I am, as always abiding by The BigBird Official Option 1 in his BigBird declaration of war. I will just say something along the lines of "For my part, I will continue to accommodate Option 1 as I have from the beginning. This matter is between you and your daughters."

I should perhaps mention that their are MULTITUDINOUS email strings going back over months where I repeatedly say that his relationship with his daughters is between him and them. But...of course...he has never listened. Though the evidence is there if needed.

RB....your story of your in-laws staying over to help you with the twins is very poignant. They cared enough to help...and put themselves out. I bet they were just life savers at the time. While X trots off as though it`s all anyone else`s responsibility but his.

If BigBird goes for lawyer involvement...I really hope that he keeps his lawyer from the divorce. He is likely to....because he is a specialist in Child Abduction and Parental Alienation. HOWEVER...he also knows my lawyer on a friendly acquaintance basis...and my lawyer has made it clear that he has been bowled over by the fact that I stayed decent and kept my integrity when Bigbird was firing his nasty arrows. BigBird`s lawyer is supposedly a very nice guy. So I suspect that the BigBird Mr Nice Guy act will not be doing the business there.

Imogene...I spent so many weeks and months trying to find ways to get BigBird to listen to his daughters. For the longest time I did imagine that maybe in the future we could work towards a superficial McDonalds-meal-out relationship as a starting point for....who knows what. That plan never got past first base. In fact....the ball never even got thrown. It was heartbreaking to witness his repeated invalidation of everything the girls ever felt or said. I now have frankly given up any attempts to reconcile them. Because it just causes pain. And neither d wants to see him anyway. But...you are right...even this action is not about a father seeing his beloved daughters. It is a convoluted BigBird game.

I was thinking today...if I were in his shoes...and I felt that I desperately needed to see and speak with the girls...I know I would ABSOLUTELY not involve me. I would go directly to them. If they elected to ignore me (as younger d does)....or ask me to stop bothering them (as older d has)....I would find ways to show my love for them. And I would concentrate on letting them know how much I loved them, while respecting their feelings.

BigBird still has younger ds Christmas present which he has repeatedly used as bait to tempt her to meet with him. He lives no more than 20 minutes away (sadly).He could drop it through the letterbox...or leave it on the doorstep any time.

This is how I know it is not about loving the girls. He has not done one thing to show love towards them since he left. For example....The first thing he did when he left was take his massive TV...leaving his kids with one half the size. I don`t watch TV. If that were me...I could never ever watch that TV without thinking I took it from my kids. Yet he is entirely comfortable with it.

I`m not suggesting that love and TVs have a particular affinity! It`s just an example of his attitude.

Pearls.....I think that while I was reeling from the Divorce papers arriving in my way...they perhaps affected BigBird very differently. He is maybe giving the message that there is not a cut off for me......he did once write in an email "I am not going to be going away Jen". Which I found rather sinister actually.

I look forward to the time when the girls are old enough for BigBird to HAVE to leave me out of the equation. Then there will be nothing left for him to bug me about. And I will move far away if I have to. I will NOT live the rest of my life centered around what BigBird is going to do to upset me next.

And Julia....my word Julia.....you have got an total understanding of this....it`s like you have heard my thoughts this afternoon. I have spent the day building cupboard doors out of floorboards (!)...and thinking and ruminating....and mulling stuff over.

I agree ,most heartily with your take on this. This all serves a purpose. And I do suspect that it makes a perfect scapegoat for a lot of people. It will, therefore...not go quietly into the night. There is too much at stake here. The very validity of BigBird`s False Self is at stake here.

How can he portray himself as the lovable honest wonderful Mr Nice Guy if his own daughters will not speak to him?

I also agree with the idea that this situation will serve to hide a multitude of other problems. He is miserable because he misses his beloved children.

This confrontational campain convinces me more than ever of what BigBird is. He may convince himself and mad-gf and his NFOO that these are the legitimate actions of a loving father. But....he has created a fantasy for himself...and is busily ramming puzzle pieces where they do not go.

I will mentally prepare for the long haul. Sadly. There is nothing more I can do. He hopes, I am sure, to force me to force his daughters to see him...so he can remind them of his superior wonderousness. And bolster up the BigBird image. He certainly does not seem to care whether how the girls feel.

[Imogene]

I know you did your best and then some in trying to improve your girls' relationship with their father.  I feel for your girls, though, because as good a mum as you are, they are always going to lack something for having a father who has been so blatantly self-involved.  It's so frustrating.  If only we had known!  I was talking to my daughter's therapist about this today, how I simply did not know the extent to which my relationship with my daughter was being ruined by my relationship with X.  And I'm sure you had no idea how much resentment and even hatred your daughters were storing up against BigBird.  Honestly, they are venomous, slowly leaking poison the longer they stay in one place.

[JennyWren]

It`s true Imogene. This part is only really beginning to sink in.

I know my two had very little to do with their dad....but that in itself is very damaging. To live in a house with a man who is your father, but who CHOSES not to be involved in your life. And with whom you feel no affinity. To observe your mother routinely unloved. To feel the polar opposites of relationships they had with me as opposed to BigBird.

There are a lot of implications.

I do think the girls had anger and hatred and disgust in their hearts long before he ever thought to leave. And...as you say.....it is not something that registers at the time. It`s just a case of making the best of the life you have I suppose.

[Julia]

Jenny, I am glad that my remarks made sense and resonated. It took me a while to get here, especially since my kids don't "hate" XN". Its more like they get frozen around him, so much so that their first therapist seriously suspected sexual abuse (despite none ever occurring - they really would have told me). THe point is that he was THAT bad, and honestly, yours sounds just as bad, if not worse in many ways.

My "theory" of XN's motivation, in retrospect explains nearly all his behaviors, now and from the beginning. I was so confused and took a lot of things personally that were, of course, ALL about XN. Now, understanding his reality, and his GFs reality about this situation allows me to detach my emotions and not take ANY of what he does personally. It also helps me keep things stable for my girls and helps me influence him when I need to. But it hurt a lot to get to this point.

I know my two had very little to do with their dad....but that in itself is very damaging. To live in a house with a man who is your father, but who CHOSES not to be involved in your life. And with whom you feel no affinity. To observe your mother routinely unloved. To feel the polar opposites of relationships they had with me as opposed to BigBird.
/quote]

This is still sinking in for me too, and I am motivated to break the cycle, to love them so much, and teach them to choose healthy r/s. But I am afraid too.

Julia

[honeybearII]

I think what we need to remember here, is that they don't really want a RELATIONSHIP with their children.  What they really want is for them to look good to others.  My ex only wants his kids in his life if, for whatever kooky reason, he needs them to prop him up in his public image.  He will pay their way, do ANYTHING if he thinks their presence would bolster his faux image as a Good Father.  It makes me sick, but sadly my children (all grown) continue to see that as a form of being loved. 

I have created my own relationship with my kids, and while not perfect, at least they know I am HONEST in my dealings with them.  I love them, I know their faults, I don't try to use them to make people believe I am somehow the Perfect Mother.  I know better, LOL, and frankly I don't care whether they, or anyone else, sees me as the Great Mother.  I know that who they are today (and they are WONDERFUL adults) had about 98% due to me and about 2% due to their father.  I KNOW THAT in my heart and that is really enough.  If he wants to live the Great Lie and continue to try to make THEM believe it - that he was this great, involved father figure - what do I care?  I just find it all very sad.

Honey

[RB22]

My X wants the kids to prop him up...Just like Honey's.  He goes for all the Kodak moments in their lives.  BUT he isn't there to support the work the kids  do that goes into making those moments.  He doesn't pay a thing for the Kodak moment.   He does appreciate someone congratulating him for his kids accomplishments - Like HE had anything to do with it! 

BUT, he doesn't want the wild card D anywhere near him in public!  She is rather outspoken, and will tell anyone who asks "How is your dad?"  Exactly how he is.  Which is something X would rather NOT share with his public..sort of ruins the Good Daddy Image he has of himself.  So he makes an exception for her... actually it's interesting because this last holiday vacation he seemed to be trying to listen to her... well till he opened his mouth... Then she let him have it. NW really hates this D, because she calls it like she saw it, and what she saw is very contrary to the story that X and NW tell.  So they don't want to associate too much with her.. and when they do it is in 'safe'  surroundings..(re limited public access) - like their home.. and not at a restaurant or any other venue where their adoring public can be found.

It is all about control... and they want it in any way they can get it.

And remember He who angers you - controls you.  I try to never let X (know, he) ever make me angry... that is just another way to feed him supply. 

Apathy is the opposite of love and hate... I strive for apathy... it really does drive NW nuts... which is always a treat.

Hugs,

RB

[JennyWren]

It really does add another layer of craziness upon the pile when kids have grown up with an Nparent, and all the disadvantages and confusion and unnaturalness that brings...only to be considered a possession....an accessory for the false self costume.

Isn`t it enough to blight their little innocent lives with surreally atrocious parenting....without insisting they are then "owed" love...and have "rights" over them.

It`s ironic that the very kinds of people that insist upon love being displayed that does not exist are the very same ones who could not provoke that emotion from their own children if their life (or more importantly in an Ns case their bank account) was at stake.

It is interesting however that different siblings react differently to the same situation. The innate character differences really show sometimes. I suspect that an Ns inability to relate below the shallowest of levels is more hurtful to some than others.

Although I knew that BigBird was inept as a parent...and was very aware of basically bringing the girls up on my own...I never considered at the time that they were not merely without a father,,,,they were not dealing with a dad that was physically absent....but one who was physically present, but to whom they were not important.

The eldest d tells of when she first became conscious that her dad was not as others are...when she would visit with friends and became self aware enough to compare family dynamics. Until then she says she just thought "that`s what dad`s did"

The most head-spinning aspect is that BigBird has created his alternative reality...where the girls feelings are manipulated against him. And it works for him. I did email him once when he was accusing me...just asking him to consider why I would do that. Why....and indeed HOW could I change feelings about a parent? Why would I want to stop them from seeing somebody they missed?

If he can imagine such motivations...it tells me an awful lot about his own mindset and capabilities. Not mine.

[MoreMyself]

Jenny, I've just watched a rerun of 'The O'Neals', the reality show purporting to show the reunion of Tatum and Ryan O'Neal.  It was bad TV but at the same time hard to look away from.  Ryan emerged almost immediately as an N.  He had rages and would turn on his daughter at the slightest provocation, was also in huge denial about his lack of parenting skills but covered it up with a lot of sighing and sad faces and saying he wished he could change the past.

Anyway, the most confronting thing for me was when he said (more than once) that children should make their parents happy.  That struck a cord because that is exactly what the Hobbit believed.  When my sons were born, he said the same phrase each time and it stuck in my mind because it was so odd.  He said he hoped that when they grew up, THEY would be proud of HIM.  Not the other way around.  He saw his role as the centre of their universe and wanted their worshipful adoration.  Without doing anything to deserve it.  Just by the very fact that he had been their sperm donor.

Ns don't understand what it means to be a parent - the putting of another person's needs before theirs.  Instead they want the worship, the adoration, the praise and just like Ryan O'Neal said so succinctly, they expect their children to make them happy.   

[RB22]

they expect their children to make them happy.

EXACTLY!!!

My X once told the girls that he hadn't been happy since 1995. I didn't believe him when he said it, but I do now. 

In 1995, I delivered our last child by emergency C-section.  I developed an infection which reguired me to stay in the hospital for extra days.  Which left X (and his parents) caring for 3 kids 3 and under. (Oldest 2 turned 4 a month later) Last baby was high need.. meaning she didn't like being put down or held by anyone but me.  All the other babies were happier in his arms than mine.  Prior to having this baby I closed my home daycare business.  When X would come home he would be greeted by a bunch of adoring little people all wanting to get close to him.   

Later that year the older 3 started preschool.. and started developing a social life that didn't include him. By year end, he was disciplined at work. I do not know what happened... I know what he told me..and I know what was in his personnel file, and I know what someone told me....none of which match.  I do know that he had to Retake sexual harrassment class 1,2,3.  As a manager that was demoralizing.  He was also NOT allowed overnight travel for a couple of years.  Other things were happening at work as well.

He spent a good deal of 1995 loosing the admiration of everyone around him... when I thought about this it made sense to me.  The man was telling the truth.. he was unhappy since 1995... the kid he told this to... was the one BORN in 1995.. she blames herself for his unhappiness.

I could kick him for that... and a few other things.

[JennyWren]

just like Ryan O'Neal said so succinctly, they expect their children to make them happy.   

Sometimes the sinking thud of the N weirdness hits you full on.....and that`s "one of those" lines. I remember BigBird insisting that I was responsible as his wife for his happiness.....and just staring open mouthed like a particularly gormless goldfish for a long while.

It`s so hard to take in. But even that has SOME degree of logic to it compared to the notion that your CHILDREN are there to make you happy.

My experience tells me that children are their to physically and mentally exhaust you...and then tell you you burned the toast. Surely....anyone who labours under the misapprehension that children will make you happy must learn the error of their ways fairly swiftly?

Oh...wait...no...because these are Ns....and there is always somebody to blame when things don`t go according to the N plan.

Such nonsense. But now I think of it...it makes total N-ish sense. Urghhhhhhh. 

[Legs]

ahhhhhhhhh, Lucifer was older and sneakier..HE said HE just wanted to make ME happy...I realize now of course in the odd reverse language of lies, he was saying the same thnig as BigBird...I can hardly stand myself finally gearing up to go downtown to Homeland Security and maybe to IRS..I know I'm running a risk there but since Lucifer is a Dutch citizen, hiding away Dutch income in a Dutch bank, I don't know how in the hell they could ever find me liable for any of that...I didn't even know about it til the divorce or right before I left him....God, I hope he goes to jail or gets deported or something. He is going to be soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo PISSED!!!!!! (I hope)

legs, continuing t take delight in jacking with him as long as he delays this appeal process

[JennyWren]

Oh don`t get me wrong....BigBird didn`t blurt that one out until he was in a fit of rage about how I needed to buck my ideas up if he was going to stay....prize irresistible stud that he is. It was when he was drawing his bar graphs of how happy I was compared to poor him all over the tablecloth.

I wonder if they have tried doing that when negotiating in the Middle East? Perhaps drawing on the table cloth has some kind of weighty kudos I don`t understand.

In sane moments (relatively)....his life was dedicated to my happiness. In words only. Actions of course told another story.

[RB22]

And the reason he took up with NW??? (DRUM ROLL)  "She makes me happy". 

He married her because, in his own words " It felt wierd living together and not being married". 

So he liked the institution of marriage, just with someone who makes him happy. 

Now that I got that figured out.... Can I get an oreo?

[Legs]

No. But you can have an entire package of Oreos.


Legs, seriously considering go out for some of those since you Oreo-sluts will NOT stop talking about them!!!

[MoreMyself]

I think that the reason I didn't challenge the Hobbit on his perception that children are to admire, respect and provide him with happiness is because my mother taught me that this was also the truth.  It was HER truth, not THE truth.  Her favourite line was "What will people think?"  Even as a child I knew that this wasn't particularly important, that the thoughts of others were merely biased, fleeting things that had no real impact on my life.  But my mother built her existence around that phrase. We were to at all times make her look good, to look like the perfect happy little family.  She even started getting my hair permed at the age of 4 to make me look more Shirley Temple-ish so that people would stop and admire my golden locks (instead of the dead straight flat hair I was born with).

As to the happiness thing, Ns appear to expect everything in life to make them happy.  Their work, their friends, their possessions, their marriage, and even their children.  Ryan O'Neal revealed his Nism yet again when he talked about Farah Fawcett, the most beautiful of women, picking him, wanting him!  He had the prize possession that all men coveted.  It wasn't love in the sense that I understand it, but the victory he felt at possessing her.  And when she did choose him, he abandoned his teenage children and left them to live on their own while he moved in with her.  He made another jaw-dropping statement when he said that yes, he had left Tatum at the curb, but he told her to just stay there and he'd be back for her. 

Of course there is also the misinterpretation of that famous phrase from the US Declaration of Independence - that all men are entitled to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.  In the context of the time in which it was written, happiness was not intended to mean personal happiness at the expense of others.  It was meant to mean happiness in the sense of community wellbeing and responsible government being provided.  But what a phrase for the Ns to latch on to and interpret in their own evil ways - that their own happiness matters most of all and screw the rest of us.

[Imogene]

Our moms sure were similar, MoreMyself.  With my mother, everything had to be "normal."  By which she meant cloaked with an impenetrable facade of social appropriateness.  Was growing up in your house also like living in a prison?

[MoreMyself]

Our moms sure were similar, MoreMyself.  With my mother, everything had to be "normal."  By which she meant cloaked with an impenetrable facade of social appropriateness.  Was growing up in your house also like living in a prison?

Like a prison, yes.  But not with physical restraints or unfair rules.  Actually these weren't necessary because we lived several miles from the nearest small town, on a farm, so nMom was assisted in her controlling us with the isolation.  I actually think if we been townies, things might have been much worse for us as we would have been exposed to other families, other values and seen our home life for what it was.

nMom was raised in a very strict religious family.  So she started out by scaring us with stories of hellfire and rigid rules about children and how they had to treat their parents right or they'd end up burning for eternity.  She later morphed these beliefs into a blended eastern/christian mythology which made (makes) no sense at all.  As in believing in reincarnation, also both evolution and creationism which she manages to defend equally (?!?)

The real issues started when I hit puberty.  She feared ageing and hated seeing me develop into a normal healthy teenager who was attractive to the opposite sex.  The put downs and ignoring really started and from that point I was in more of an emotional hell than a prison.  When I was 15 she went through one of her prolonged hypochondriac ("I'm dying") sessions and for weeks I was doing school, homework, coming home and cooking for my Dad and 3 brothers, cleaning - the household slave.  Then I had a major depressive episode and started skipping school and sleeping 20 hours a day, not eating.  She finally took me to a doctor to get ulcer medication as she'd already diagnosed me.  The doctor knew instantly what was going on and insisted I see a counsellor.  I remember going to the counsellor and just crying and crying, barely able to talk.  I was so depressed.  And he did the right thing, he just let me get it all out.  Finally I came out of that and started giving nMom a bit of stick, letting my own beliefs and ideas come out. 

She was done with me.  She labelled me out of control (even though I was a straight A student, didn't even have a boyfriend, didn't drink...).  She shipped me off to her parents who decided just to love me, which was all I needed.  The rest is history.  I never lived at home after age 16 except for short periods of time like summer between university. 

I didn't really know that her issues had a name - a blend of histrionic and narcissistic traits - until recently.  Not that it matters.  To me she was a cold and ignoring mother who tried to keep me under her control and make me feel inferior.  (Example, when at the age of 11 I asked her if she thought I was fat, she replied that I was pleasingly plump.  I've looked at photos from that age and I had barely any extra fat on me, I was all muscle). 

Yes, it was a prison.  Prisons can come in many forms.