Starting A Family?

[inflatedheart]

**Note: There is a little bit of TMI content in this post**

I'm in a bit of a relationship pickle here. When my partner and I got engaged years ago, we had a very serious talk about our expectations. We agreed that we would both enjoy starting a small family (one biological child, the other adopted) when we were financially secure and ready. Recently, we began having discussions about family when I found out that my birth control is messing with my body. DH has been reading up on parenthood and reluctantly told me that he would much rather not have any children. I listened with an open mind and his argument made sense. I agreed with him that there were definitely some benefits to choosing not to have children. DH suggested that he get a vasectomy instead of putting my body through any more hormones and junk. Several months after this discussion, I began to have second thoughts. I found myself becoming secretly envious of the pregnant women I'd see in my every day life. I decided that I definitely felt like parenthood should still be an option. When I brought up this with DH, he told me that he was not interested in having kids. At all. Ever. This was very disappointing to hear. As an ACON, I am very accustomed to just rolling over and letting my wants/needs be ignored. I am not sure how to overcome such a stalemate, especially when it is regarding such a big (and permanent!) decision. I need some objective advice, here!

[Dandelion]

Sounds really tough! Did you start to want children when you found out you couldn't have one, because he didn't want to?
ACON's have - in my experience - a tendency to want the unreachable because it is unreachable - we want what we can't have, because THAT feeling (wanting something we can't have) is a feeling we're really use to and it's familiar to us and thus we seize any chance to feel that again, because familiarity is safe even though it's not sound.
I do not want to make you sad or feel unheard but I would invite you to examine when you got the urge to have a child, because I recognize the easily tempted "I can't have it feeling"

Recently my husband was in the psych ward with a heavy depression and I started to pack my emotions away as it seemed he would always be severely ill and I KNOW it wouldn't be good for me to stay with him and be codependant on his depressions. But monday he discovered that he couldn't feel his love for me anymore and almost instantly I started longing for his love with all my body - like dependency to toxicity! 

I hope you find out what is right for you in your heart

Hugs and thoughts
Mette

[alatariel]

I think dandelion definitely has some points to ponder. (and thank you for that insight, Dandy, I'm going to apply that to myself!)

I know a lot of men are afraid of having kids, and reluctant to make the commitment, but many of them turn out to be fine once the kids actually arrive, so it's hard to predict.  And reading about it actually doesn't tell you a darn thing about the actual experience of having kids.  I also know that many Dr's are reluctant to perform permanent sterilization on one member of a couple when they haven't had any kids and they recommend counseling to be sure the decision is final.

Do you spend time around kids?  Do you have nieces or nephews you can "borrow"?

[Snowbird]

I decided that I definitely felt like parenthood should still be an option. When I brought up this with DH, he told me that he was not interested in having kids. At all. Ever. This was very disappointing to hear. As an ACON, I am very accustomed to just rolling over and letting my wants/needs be ignored. I am not sure how to overcome such a stalemate, especially when it is regarding such a big (and permanent!) decision. I need some objective advice, here!

Objective advice. Hmmm....I don't know how objective I can be, because some of this is pretty visceral in my experience. But I can warn you to pay attention to the red flags that I ignored.

I don't know what your relationship is like with your DH, or whether he has any N tendencies at all, so maybe this doesn't apply to you. I noted with interest the part I bolded in the quote above---that as an ACON you put your feelings/wishes aside. That's me too....except in the area of kids. I naively thought that marriage and family go together, and that of course anyone who makes a lifelong commitment will welcome children. (This was back in the '70s, and I have always been very old-fashioned).

So when NH told me he didn't want children, I didn't believe him. I just figured he wasn't around too many kids, and his younger cousins were hellions, but he would surely feel differently when they were his own.

After two years he relented, after seeing people around us having kids and I guess he thought it wasn't that bad, and our friends seemed so happy with the birth of their kids. He was ok at first, and I can say that he did love his kids----but in retrospect his definition of 'love' and fatherhood were miles away from mine.

Basically, his notion was that his job was to provide, and as head of the household he had the right and responsibility to delegate everything else to me! His role was to tell me what I should be doing with them, from chores to discipline to math drills. His way of interacting with the kids was doing yardwork and repair project on the weekends.

He treated us all like employees.
He was jealous of my relationship with them.
He wanted my attention for himself, and was best behaved on the rare occasions when we traveled without the kids.

Of course....he is an N, so none of this might apply to you in any way. But the bottom line is, when all is said and done---he was ultimately removed by child services for physical abuse (in the name of discipline). Only days before when he was pi$$ing and moaning about one transgression or another, he declared, "some people dread the prospect of an empty nest. I look forward to it. The kids are all jerks!"

 After a few months of court ordered therapy, his counselor was able to see his contempt and came to the conclusion "this man should never have had children"

Of course, hindsight is 20/20. I always wanted children and they have always been the light of my life. If I had to do it over again, knowing what I know now, I would have believed him! I would have left him, or better yet, never married him.....and had kids with someone who wanted them!!!

[tango3]

Ah but originally there was an agreement to have children (one of their own and one adopted).  So it's not as though they both went into the relationship agreeing not to have children and now IH is having second thoughts.  Her partner is the one who has changed his mind - somewhat arbitrarily - he read a book and decided against it

The drive to have children is very basic (otherwise we would be extinct), and it can really outweigh all the rational reasons NOT to have them (expense, pleasant dual income life being free to do whatever you want, go wherever you want completely turned on its head).  I mean if we all sat down and thought about the vast financial burden that children turn in to we'd all be out getting sterilized!!

This is a really tough situation, a relationship was started with an express understanding that children were going to be part of it and now one of the pair has decided that it's not for him.  IH I think you have to sit down with your partner and tell him that you WANT a child - that, that was what you had originally agreed upon, unless there is some compelling genetic reason for you not to have children.  You are a couple you don't make huge decisions like this unilaterally. 

[Imogene]

I almost hate responding here, because I don't have good news.  I know four different couples who faced this dilemma, and three of them are divorced now.  The fourth is not a good marriage; she puts up with a lot of abuse, accommodates her man, and lives for her daughter.  She is clearly codependent.  Her first husband was bisexual and constantly cheated on her with the young boys he preferred sexually to women.  He also beat her, left her stranded in a country home for days without transportation, and was verbally abusive and oh--what else--an alcoholic.  She stayed with him until she met husband number two, who is merely verbally abusive and alcoholic.  By the way, she lied to him and said she was on birth control when she became pregnant.  I find that despicable, too. 

The worst situation that ended up in divorce involves a woman who is like family to me, because my parents and hers have been friends for almost 40 years.  She married a man who did not want children.  He had a vasectomy.  (He was a serial cheater, and that is one reason he wanted the procedure done.)  She insisted on having a child anyhow and gave an ultimatum.  Finally he agreed and even had the procedure reversed.  She could not conceive a child.  They decided to adopt.  At the last possible stage of the process, he backed out and asked for a divorce.  He did finally fly with her to the host country to finalize the adoption, and he behaved decently about the financials, but now she is a single mother struggling with a rambunctious (but awfully sweet) little boy on her own.  She has no life, because young kids require a single parent's full attention.  She is bitter and unhappy and very, very tired.

If you really want to have kids, and your husband really doesn't, this is a deal breaker.  Normally I'm not so adamant about something.  But I've seen it firsthand too many times to come to any other conclusion.   It is NOT a small thing.  If your husband capitulates, it will take a huge toll on the marriage.  If you capitulate, it will take a huge toll on the marriage.  You are still young, so if you really want a child and really love your husband, I would ask him to consider this as a someday proposition, because people can change.  When I was your age, I did NOT want kids.  But I found myself amenable to it much later on, once I'd worked through some family stuff.  But I would not push this as a short-term possibility.

[daisyk9292]

I don't know how to advise on such a personal decision. All I can do is share my experiences.

I never had the desire to have children. I believe because of my own upbringing. I never believed I was cut out for motherhood. I never even changed a diaper, or babysat!! But when I found out I was pregnant with my D, I wanted to have her. She wasn't planned, my H definitely wanted kids A LOT of them. I didn't do it for him though, I really wanted to have the baby. Just 1. I was TERRIFIED!!!! So like Alatariel said, it could be a fear thing.

The day she was placed in my arms, still remains as the greatest moment of my life. Being a parent isn't always full of great moments though. It's the hardest I've ever worked at anything, and there have been many times I've felt trapped by it. I don't regret it, but I'm being honest. I see parenting as a non stop marathon, with highs and lows along the way.

I also believe it's a lot more challenging without family or friends nearby to help and support you if/when needed. It can make a big difference.

I have a friend who made the decision with her H to not have kids. Of all the friends I knew, I thought she'd be the one to have a family. He wanted to have a child more than she did, but she discussed it with him, talked about all sacrifices they would have to make, and I don't look at them as selfish for doing that. It is a sacrifice, no getting around that one. Selfish is having children, just to say you have them, or to keep up some kind of appearance, and then NOT being committed to parenting. I know some who have done that as well. My friend and her H are so far one of the happiest couples I know, and as far as I know have no regrets about their decision.

Mette - Wow, you slapped me with a harsh reality this morning. We want what we can't have. I believe I have struggled with that in many ways. I never connected it with my FOO. I always thought it was more universal, and everyone had a touch of that in them. Mine may be a tad more severe though.

[Chime]

{{{{{{Infalted }}}}}}}

do you want really
even want to think
about having a child with someone who doesn't?

where does this equation leave the child?

I know it sounds harsh
and I don't mean it to...
but I think having a child on your own is a better
scenario for the child
than one that has one committed parent
and one non-committed parent

totally me spewing my stuff here
but i think it's worth pondering

best to you in all things 
the ever pondering
Chime

ps - just adding here, that based on other stuff you've written here and there in the castle... I believe you'd be one amazing parent to be sure    Hard stuff indeed, and all the best to you on this particular path, most sincerely!

[MoreMyself]

This is such a tough one.  Because a man can wait as long as he wants and the option to conceive is still there.
No for a woman.  We all know the odds, dropping sharply after the mid 30s and then pretty much stopping in the 40s.  And as for adopting, the options decrease as both of you age because agencies are reluctant to give babies to older couples, for good reason.  I had my last child when I was 39 and I can tell you it's been a lot harder raising him than the first one (seven years earlier).  I didn't have the energy and now in my 60s he's 21 and still requires financial assistance (university) which puts a dent in my retirement income.

I think you are wise to confront this.  If your H is 100% certain he does not want children, and does not leave the door open to considering it, then you must make the decision of what you want to do.  Who knows how you will feel 20 years down the road if you choose not to have children.  WIll you be resentful?  WIll it be an ongoing longing that turns into a feeling of loss?  On the other hand, if you push the issue and have a child, will he be a good father or one who feels he was forced into it?  It could go either way. Plus there was a mutual agreement to be parents and he has changed his mind, not you, so of course you feel let down. 

If ever there was a need for third-party counselling this is it and because of the biological clock, if I were you I wouldn't leave it too long.  Marriages have broken up over this but on the other side of the coin, I have several coupled friends who didn't have children and their marriages are stronger than mine ever was. 

[inflatedheart]

Thank you for all of your insightful replies. I've thought very deeply about any possible "red flags", but honestly I don't really see anything that would indicate that he is an N. I think that he changed his mind about having children and to overcome this disagreement, we will probably need to see a marriage counselor. He told me that he would definitely not do anything permanent without talking about it/agreeing on it, so there is no fear that he would attempt to do this behind my back. I am honestly on the fence at this point about whether or not I want a family someday, but I feel like the option should still be on the table until we can make a decision.

In regards to Mette's comment: "Did you start to want children when you found out you couldn't have one, because he didn't want to?"
After my chemotherapy/radiation treatment, there is a real possibility that I will be unable to have any of my own. So this idea of wanting one simply because of some sort of contrariety subconscious process doesn't make sense for me in context. There was always that possibility of being unable to conceive, but that did not make me want children more.

Sometimes, I really want to work on our problems and his solution is often to just "give me what I want" or shut down. Then he becomes resentful. I think we need some new tools to communicate and working with a T will help, I think.

[Chime]

Infaltedheart 
I am really sorry to hear you've been through chemo.
Wow - you're a strong person!  Glad you seem well.
My experience is that good therapy is really helpful.
I hope you find a good therapist... and if you're uncomfortable with one, don't be afraid (as I was) to find a different one.  (I stuck with a bad one because he was comfortable with her...  course he was, she fell for his c*** -- but I digress)
Wishing you all the best in this 

Chime

[nomom4me]

I feel like I am hearing this story allot from friends, they thought their partner wanted kids and now they don't.  Maybe some of this is economic? 

During the boom we saw friends buying homes and having kids and it all looked so fun, it doesn't look like fun anymore.