Too open?

[Never again]

This question is inspired by the turn taken by Jenny's Cursed Ring thread .. the whole kook attraction thing and how maybe our trusting and non-judgemental natures might have attracted the Ns too ...

What I'm going to write is in a slightly different vein, but I promise I'll be back on topic by the end ...

I had a heated discussion with a work colleague yesterday evening. Basically, during the day I had been talking to our boss about something I had been responsible for at work and I had criticised myself for having been a bit lax about one aspect of the task.

So in the evening I had dinner with this colleague and I was also telling her that I was annoyed with myself for not having worked harder at that particular aspect of the project. And she said, OK, you may not have been at the top of your game regarding that thing, but you should never have said anything to the boss!! Turns out that after my conversation with him, he had complained to her about my laxity. She wouldn't tell me what he had said exactly, but from the way she told me (and knowing him), I would imagine he was quite harsh.

So I defended myself and said I wanted to be able to be honest, even with the boss. I truly could have done better and I was disappointed in myself (by the way, the main person to suffer the consequences of this 'laxity' was myself) and I wanted to be able to say that out loud. And she said you can't be that innocent, Never! You can't say things like that to your boss! You know him, he'll use it against you! You have to be smarter! You have to be clever when you're talking to other people! She got quite irate. And I got a bit irate too saying I didn't want to be smart and clever in my relationships, even in my work relationships. I don't want to be always watching what I'm saying or be pretending that I'm perfect when I'm not ... I want to be myself, take me or leave me.

Funnily enough, until I started writing this, I wasn't at all upset that my boss had criticised me to her. The criticism is justified anyway. But I guess it's not very good boss behaviour to criticise one worker to another ... And I'm glad I wasn't there to hear it, I'm sure he was very scathing ...

Plus it's time to mention at this stage that my boss is very N-ish. Quite the manipulator. And the truth is, he was equally lax about that aspect of the project above (and he was the other person to suffer the consequences, though less than me). But, of course, he didn't admit any responsability. Only I did.

So I'm naive and not at all clever in my dealings with others and probably shoot myself in the foot a lot of the time. But really I would prefer to remain that way - if the alternative is watch my words and never admit to any weaknesses and always look out for my own interests. It's the damn 'be a good person' thing again. I'm beginning to realise how hugely conditioned I am by the moralistic aspects of my religious upbringing... Or maybe it's the combination of the 'fear of God' and the fear of the N parent ..

So now my very N-ish mother also comes to mind - how I'm feeling gradually more engulfed by her again - the way I last felt for a period during my teens. I broke away then and we had a mega-rotten relationship until eight years ago. Then a combination of a traumatic event in her life and my own growth (therapy and training) led to a huge and positive change in our relationship, and so I began to be much more open with her. But now, eight years down the road, I feel that openness is turning itself against me again .. I don't trust her .. it's all friendly friendly, but she's the boss ... Just thinking about it gives me a kind of icky feeling ..

OK, enough. That's all pretty disjointed, I think, but I'll just throw it out there for your delectation.

Never again

[alatariel]

So I defended myself and said I wanted to be able to be honest, even with the boss. I truly could have done better and I was disappointed in myself (by the way, the main person to suffer the consequences of this 'laxity' was myself) and I wanted to be able to say that out loud. And she said you can't be that innocent, Never! You can't say things like that to your boss! You know him, he'll use it against you! You have to be smarter! You have to be clever when you're talking to other people! She got quite irate. And I got a bit irate too saying I didn't want to be smart and clever in my relationships, even in my work relationships. I don't want to be always watching what I'm saying or be pretending that I'm perfect when I'm not ... I want to be myself, take me or leave me.

I have a lot of conflict with this in myself.  On one hand, I'm tired of failing and being taken advantage of by game-players who see a target on my forehead and zero in on me.  I've been told before that I'm "too honest" and that I need to be smarter about ppl and remember that, especially at work, it's everyone for themselves, dog-eat-dog, look out for number one at all times.  I need to learn to use any advantage, fair or unfair, b/c nice guys always finish last.

OTOH, I don't know that I have what it takes to even begin to play the game, b/c I don't understand the rules, and I'm always one step behind.  It's a lot of effort to remember that anything I say can and will be used against me, even the most innocuous things.

[Imogene]

I don't find this post rambling at all.  In fact, there is to me an absolute connection between your feeling suffocated by your narcissistic mother and your attitude toward your boss.  You cannot be truthful with your mother, so you resent that you have to lie to your boss (or anyone else).  But notice that the truth in your work situation proved self-destructive.  And in fact, the real truth would have been that both you and your boss screwed up, but instead you edited the truth because you knew that you could not implicate him, since he, too, is narcissistic and would deflect responsibility.  Plus he is your boss.  So if the goal is to be truthful no matter the cost, you did not achieve it.  All you achieved was an opportunity to be the scapegoat, which is probably the role you played in your family of origin.  Hence, your thoughts turn to your mother.

That said, I have the same feelings a lot, and I suspect for similar reasons.  So I can very much relate to your frustration here.  It is very suffocating to be denied our truths--that is, how we feel and what we need from other people.  But we do have to draw different boundaries for different types of relationships and have slightly different expectations.  In a way it is inappropriate to confess to a job poorly done to your boss, because you are asking him to play the mother's role of forgiveness and unconditional understanding. 

 

[RB22]

In a way it is inappropriate to confess to a job poorly done to your boss, because you are asking him to play the mother's role of forgiveness and unconditional understanding. 

Wow, just Wow... I would have NEVER thought of this.    Need to think on it a bit more.

Thanks for this.

[pearlsb4swine]

Never, this is a very interesting and relevant topic for me. 

I recently had a bad experience of abuse by an N boss.  She works for a consulting company who had been doing process redesign work for our division when my previous beloved boss resigned to take a better opportunity somewhere else.  The consultant ended up being appointed to be our interim director.  She is a very smart, very polished, very professional appearing bully.  And she targeted me from the get-go.  She was appointed as my boss the same month that my marriage fell apart.  So you can imagine how enjoyable the last few months have been for me.

I sat her down and told her about my impending divorce.  I thought it was the honest and forthright thing to do.  The way I phrased it was that I was very committed to my job, but that I was going though a very difficult time personally and that what she was seeing from me might not always be my A game.  And that I might need to leave during the day for lawyer appointments and need particular days off.  She was kind about it at that time.  I should add that one of my close friends and peers in that department strongly encouraged me not to do that.  She said that the N would use my vulnerability against me.

My friend was right.  The boss treated me abusively over the next few months.  She would be nice and intermittently lash out at me for things that were completely out of my control.  She used me as a scapegoat for her own mistakes and lied and denigrated me to other powerful people in the institution.  In short, she set out to destroy me.

I don't think that my admission to her about the divorce caused what happened to me.  I think there were a lot of reasons why she chose me to pick on.  I was not the only one--she systematically abused the management team of another department, causing all three people to resign or transfer to other positions.  Once that department was "cleaned out" she started in on me.  My department does not have a management team.  There's just me.  And I understand that this is typical of how her company operates, and that the administration of my institution may have hired her to do just this--a "slash and burn" reorganization.

I am on leave from my job now, and trying to heal from all that has happened to me.

Never, I think your friend is trying to tell you something that you need to hear.  Like my friend was trying to tell me.  It's interesting to me that you mention that you are feeling gradually more engulfed by your mother.  I too had an engulfing Nish mother.  I have not spent much time examining how  her engulfment affected me.  I am really only just recognizing it now.  I had so many other things to focus on.

I too have some beliefs about the person that I want to be.  I want to be authentic in all my dealings, and something in me recoils at the idea that in order to protect myself I have to be this plastic machine that pretends to have no weaknesses.  That is so not me.  But on the other hand, maybe what we are doing is not so much being honest and human.  Maybe pointing out our own mistakes and vulnerabilities to other people is a way of making ourselves submissive?  Like a dog showing its belly to a more dominant dog?  Because there is a way that I do that.   And it does not work to my advantage.

I need to really think about this more.  Maybe this is a behavior I learned to make myself safe from one N.  Maybe what makes you safe from an N in one situation makes you less safe in another situation.   

Thanks for sharing this experience Never.  I have a lot to think about.

Pearls

[Freezer Burned]

Never Again,
Yes, it would be easier to not have to be careful what we say and just be brutally honest all the time, but there is something to be said for prudence and kindness. You were not being kind to yourself, I doubt that you would feel so free to "tattle" like that on other people. I think you need the Reverse Golden Rule, to give yourself as much kindness as you give to others.

[Never again]

Oh, I got some great answers here! Thank you so much for your input!

I have a lot of conflict with this in myself.  ...  I've been told before that I'm "too honest" and that I need to be smarter about ppl ... OTOH, I don't know that I have what it takes to even begin to play the game,

You and I seem to see this in a black-and-white kind of way, Alatariel, and again I feel there's a third way that I, at least, haven't got a handle on yet. I know lots of people who don't get walked on but don't walk on others either. There are some nasties out there (as we all know well ...), but there are also kind and respectful people who manage to have self-respect and dignity at the same time, and I don't think they're playing any game at all. I want to get on that road!

And maybe the way there is the extremely wise comment by Freezer Burned!

[Never again]

the real truth would have been that both you and your boss screwed up, but instead you edited the truth because you knew that you could not implicate him, since he, too, is narcissistic and would deflect responsibility.

Ouch, Imogene! You're quite right. For all my talk of being open and honest, of course I didn't point out to my boss that he had been equally lax. Because I knew darn well he wouldn't only have deflected responsability, he would have attacked!

All you achieved was an opportunity to be the scapegoat, which is probably the role you played in your family of origin.

Yes, in the past. My mother is very flexible about who the scapegoat of the moment is (I come from a large family and we've all had a turn). Since relations improved between us, I'm afraid I've gradually become a golden child  .. And I think that's why I've been feeling so engulfed .. it's the same "I'm getting sucked into something viscous" feeling that I had as a teenager. And the fear is that of suffocation.

So if I play it her way I get smothered, and if I don't I get attacked, directly or indirectly.

Just like the boss.

But we do have to draw different boundaries for different types of relationships and have slightly different expectations.  In a way it is inappropriate to confess to a job poorly done to your boss, because you are asking him to play the mother's role of forgiveness and unconditional understanding.

Yes, of course you're right here too. And to be honest I don't remember having made this mistake with past bosses. This is an N boss who has a real problem respecting boundaries himself. And my reaction has been to lose sight of proper boundaries on my part.

I fear I'm going to be back here talking about further developments in this situation - I'm clearly right in the middle of dysfunctional relationship with him, and it may well be coming to a head (there's a whole promotion question on the cards at the moment, and he's been giving me mixed messages ..). Oh groan.

Thanks so much for your insight, Imogene. You've helped me see the part I play, which, of course, is the part I can change ... which is probably going to lead to major turbulence .. Never a dull moment in N land   
 

[Never again]

I'm glad this topic is helpful for you too, Pearls, and thank you for sharing *your* experience. Isn't it great how much we learn here just by talking to each other? (three cheers again for CZ!)

I'm sorry you've been having such a hard time. It must have been horrendous, all happening at once. Be kind to yourself, as Freezer Burned said.

But on the other hand, maybe what we are doing is not so much being honest and human.  Maybe pointing out our own mistakes and vulnerabilities to other people is a way of making ourselves submissive?  Like a dog showing its belly to a more dominant dog? 

This *really* stood out for me in your post. It reminds me of how I used to metaphorically strip myself bare to my exN, desperately trying to show him that I was no threat whatsoever to him, so would he please stop attacking me!!

And now I remember, just before we moved in together - we didn't ever marry - I had a dream about his dog lying on his back, belly up, but with his belly slit wide open .. I woke in a sweat, of course, and I immediately knew the dog actually represented me and that the dream was a warning about going to live with him. Silly me I didn't listen to myself.

[pearlsb4swine]

Wow, Never, that dream gave me the shivers too.  Anything bad happening to a dog is nightmare material for me.  My dreams tend to be less subtle than that.  I had a dream early in my marriage that I was throwing my wedding ring off a bridge on the interstate into a major river in our state.  Too bad I didn't pay attention to my dream either!

I am doing my best right now to be kind to myself and to do what's right for me.  It's scary.  Because I need to go back to work soon.  My interim N boss is still there right now, but hopefully will be gone soon.  I don't know what things will be like when I get back.  My professional reputation has taken a hit, and I don't know whether I can recover there.  And I have worked there a long time and have some dear friends there.  My inclination is to stay and try to work things out, but that was my inclination about my marriage too, and look how well that turned out!  And I have a new boss that I haven't met yet.  So we'll see.

Imogene's post has given me food for thought as well.  Gotta think on that.

Pearls

[JennyWren]

This is an unbelievably fascinating thread. Because it touches on the commonality between us...as folks who tolerated Ns.

We talk a lot about the Ns....and they are all the same dregs of organic life...doing the same old stuff. But...fact is....their stuff doesn`t work on everyone. And a trusting and non-judgemental nature is manna from heaven for the unscrupulous N.

I think I have to agree with Alatariel when she says....

OTOH, I don't know that I have what it takes to even begin to play the game, b/c I don't understand the rules, and I'm always one step behind.

The second you start trying to modify behaviour artificially you are likely to come unstuck. A stranger in a strange world. And yet...it strikes me (apologies for going back to these suckers again)....it strikes me that that is what the N does. Observes a set of societal rules and play them.

I don`t want to do that.

I do think my own trait of pointing out all the mistakes I make to others comes not as a result of wishing to show a submissive side...or of expecting any particular reaction...and maybe this is unique to me...but I thought I would explain in case it rings any bells. Just ignore me if it`s irrelevant.

For my part...I can remember an exact point in my teenage years when I understood that one can absolutely not judge the actions of anybody but yourself....because you haven`t lived their life....and felt their feelings. It was not something I was taught by my FOO. (I believe my biological dad has OCPD or similar....a fixation on rules effectively). In fact the FOO culture from my dad was astonishingly judgemental....and I think I probably was too....until...of all things at school we were reading a short story for English Lit. in which the writer showed how you could judge a person entirely wrongly by only considering a confined set of events.

And I remember that point...right there....was when I realised I had no right to judge anybody but myself. Because I knew where I`d been. But not where others had.

Bear with me here!

So....the implications got skewed I think. If I could not rightly blame or judge others...but I could blame myself...everything becomes my fault! Further more....it makes me very comfortable pointing out how I`ve screwed up something.....taking responsibility for my "fault"....always hoping others will take responsibility for their own slip ups.

Fact is...most people don`t.

So...I have two choices....I either keep very quiet and don`t disclose the honest truth when I screw up...or I carry on blurting and face the consequences. I guess the best plan strategically is to shut up. But then I would feel guilty and like a large animated finger was pointing from the sky saying "Look at her!....LIAR!....she is not being honest!"

Maybe this is a throwback to rule-loving daddy. But I do struggle with anything but total open honesty.

And....though I`ve come the long way round...I hope I`ve made a little sense at least...and totally understand how you found yourself `fessing up your harsh self-critisism to your boss Never again.

I suppose the struggle I have nowadays is the thought that I do not want the Ns....and other N-like loons to force me to change what I am comfortable with about myself. Otherwise they win.

I dunno. This one is still very much a "thought in progress!"

[Never again]

I had a dream early in my marriage that I was throwing my wedding ring off a bridge on the interstate into a major river in our state.

That was a bit of a giveaway alright! 

[pearlsb4swine]

I suppose the struggle I have nowadays is the thought that I do not want the Ns....and other N-like loons to force me to change what I am comfortable with about myself. Otherwise they win.

I dunno. This one is still very much a "thought in progress!"

I hear you.  I don't want to change things I am comfortable with about myself either.  But by last November, between dealing with my N boss and my Nh I was reduced to a quivering, sobbing wreck.  I feel like I can make the choice to avoid dealing with an n in my personal life.  In my professional life, I can't.  There are too many.  When the next N shows up in my life I want to be able to take better care of myself professionally and personally.

I certainly have more knowledge now.  In a way, my leave of absence was like a sabbatical taken to study dealing with Ns and cluster B people.  And I think that will be very useful. 

But I have this belief that I make things too easy for them.  By caring too much, or wearing my heart on my sleeve. I don't want to be someone I am not meant to be.  But I don't want to be a victim again either.  I want to feel like I have some power, some control, some choices. 

Pearls

[Legs]

<<I suppose the struggle I have nowadays is the thought that I do not want the Ns....and other N-like loons to force me to change what I am comfortable with about myself. Otherwise they win>>


Um, baloney. Just because you finally realized that just because you are disquietingly honest, does not mean that the n's have won. On the contrary, YOU have won because you now know that you cannot continue to BE that way with every stray sad puppy dog that comes along.


Just because we finally woke up and smelled the coffee does NOT mean they win and I am damn sick of people telling me if I change, then the n has won. That's insane. If I *didn't* change, then it would mean the n had won.


Sheesh.........because we plan now on protecting our hearts and minds does not make is weaker..it makes us stronger! Yes, we're different that we used to be and we damn well better be or we're gonna find ourselves going thru this crap again and I know for dang sure, I am NOT strong enough to go *there* again. I will snap like a cheap craft knife and either go crazy or else to prison.


Legs, who finally figured out this part of the equation at least...still working on other parts of the problem, but changing our behavior, expectations and beliefs does NOT MEAN N'S WON

[notakennedy]

I too am honest and 'open' - and sometimes I find myself walking away, shaking my head thinking  "was there really ANY need, G, to say ALL that?". Like I am constantly explaining myself to people, completely guilessly, without any thought for whether I might have exposed what might be perceived as a 'weakness'.  This is not to say that I think I am weak, quite the opposite considering what I have endured (!). Perhaps I should have said 'vulnerable' as opposed to 'weak'.  Sometimes I think I might simply have sounded 'silly'!   But then, I've suffered with low self esteem for as long as I can remember, and like Never, I suspect this goes back to my very early childhood. I too have sat down with a boss and earnestly explained that my performance was below par due to various external circumstances but that I was aware and in the process of upping my game (and therefore my committment to the job).  It never occurs to me to fudge it or pretend, when I know damn well I was not as on to it as I normally am.

However, there are individuals (and we all know who I'm referring to, right?) who will note those vulnerabilities and use them to their advantage, to make their own position stronger or justify their behaviour.  I think that to be self-protective is vital, but without compromising your own principles.  So next time I feel inclined to tell someone really intimate and honest details of a situation, I will (hopefully) choose my words carefully to ensure that I am direct and open, but not apologetic or submissive.  And I agree totally with Legs, this is a show of strength.  .. and.. N's can't win. It's not in the order of things.  They may think they have, but they can't.  They're only deluding themselves, and we again all know how accomplished they are at THAT!

[Rosemary]

Thats one  thing about keeping a diary everyday ,if you have to confess about something  put it in the book and leave it

 there .     Noones to know how you feel about your work /job  ,wait until someone complains ,before  saying anything


 about yourself  .This saves a lot of trouble and worry for you .

Everyday people make mistakes at work ,however accomplished you are at your job  we all have off days when our

 mind is on other things we are not  machines (though some bosses may think so )     

[Proud2B]

Like I am constantly explaining myself to people, completely guilessly, without any thought for whether I might have exposed what might be perceived as a 'weakness'.  This is not to say that I think I am weak, quite the opposite considering what I have endured (!). Perhaps I should have said 'vulnerable' as opposed to 'weak'. ~ NotaKennedy

It took a while, but I finally stopped explaining myself.  Some people do perceive it as weakness, and they jump on it - like the various bosses mentioned in this thread.  It gives them an out, someone to scape goat, if the project is less than perfect.  But mostly I realized that explaining myself was a behavior I learned to try to keep the exN at bay - and it NEVER worked.  If anything, it only made it worse.

Explaining oneself can sometimes sound as if we're making excuses.  WE know what we did and why we did it, but they don't.  Anytime I did anything, I thought about it forwards, backwards, sideways, and upside down because no matter what, the exN could ALWAYS find something wrong with my intent, my logic, my plan, etc. etc.  I found that most of the time people don't want to know your justifications, they just want to know the outcome.  Forget how you got there!   

I hope I don't sound harsh, but sometimes being self-critical, esp. if it is unsolicited, is interpreted as a need for validation, especially if you're talking to a superior.   

There is nothing wrong with staying focused on the positive, and making a (mental) note of things we could have done differently or done better.  Sometimes 'good enough' is great.

I know it's tempting to go with full disclosure, but I also think it's important to keep in mind who the audience is.  It's been a hard lesson for me - for a long time I parentified my boss.  But he ain't my dad.

Kindly,
Proud2B

 

[pearlsb4swine]

I too am honest and 'open' - and sometimes I find myself walking away, shaking my head thinking  "was there really ANY need, G, to say ALL that?". Like I am constantly explaining myself to people, completely guilessly, without any thought for whether I might have exposed what might be perceived as a 'weakness'.

yep, that's me.

[Legs]

ok, me too. Can you tell???? hahahahahahaahahaha.....I even do it on message boards. I don't think I can change that part of myself, but what I *can* change is my response to other people's response at my "refreshing openess."

When I see their eyes light up and their tummies say howdy, I know I am quite possibly seeing the infamous Turkey Buzzard fixin' to go to town on my ass. At the first sign of any whining or demanding behavior, I am two shakes of the lam's tail outta there. I can hear that manipulative, expectant tone in their voice now,.......the "you must amuse me now or please me in some unspecified way", and ::::::::::poof:::::::::: I'm done.

Finally~~~~~ thank the great Dog above ~~~~ I hear it, I know what it means, and I am one hundred percent on my way out of Dodge. I no longer stop to try and explain how I wish to be treated in a relationship......I am like the Invisible Man. I'm done and with no explanation.

If I run into them later and they start up with the half-baked "I tried to call you or email you or blah", I just look them right in the eye and say, "I know." And then if they say anything else, I say "I know!" After a while they'll shrug their shoulders, perhaps shake their heads a little at their own miscalculation. They thought they had a sucker ready to throw quarters at the milk bottle at the fair but they made a fatal mistake somehow. At least with me.

I am not telling anyone anything else about anyone either..they can frickin' figure it out just like I did. If they even want to. Am continually surprised at the people who don't WANT to know. Apparently anything.


legs

[Imogene]

Never Again,
Yes, we are damned if we do and don't when dealing with a narcissist, and I don't envy either you or pearls for being in that position.  We like to say, "You can only change yourself," and this is true, but unfortunately it's not a strategy that can resolve conflict with a narcissistic person.  I had to give up on the possibility of any contact with my brother, because it simply didn't matter what boundaries I set; he was intent on violating him and then blaming me for having let him down.  I could never get so much as a toehold on the relationship unless I gave in to his demands and got sucked into the realm of his crazy rationalizations.  To not have the option of walking away, establishing very low contact, must be very aggravating.

I'll tell you something I have a very hard time dealing with.  It is difficult for me when my goals coincide with those of the narcissist.  For instance, my mother values slimness and good grooming.  I am trying to become slim and develop better grooming habits right now because I want to look polished for the workforce.  When I succeed in a way that might garner praise from my mother, it is a double-bind for me.  I do feel smothered, because it immediately becomes "her" success, so strong is my memory of this happening to me when I was a child.  And I am also afraid of being knocked off the pedestal.  So I have a strong tendency to self-sabotage when I know my actions would be pleasing to my parents.  I would rather cling to a self-concept of deficiency and be dependent (but have the illusion of resistance and "independence") than branch out on my own.

Because of that I also have a tendency to parentify my superiors and seek unearned validation from them.  I'm not as emotional healthy as you; I can do this with any superior, not just a narcissistic one.  The narcissists relate well to that dynamic, though, as they are masters in fostering double-bind of dependence-autonomy in others.  So I believe that in the past I have actually gravitated more toward narcissistic profs and mentors, trading the specious validation for real progress in my field.  That's something I want to avoid in the future.



 

[alatariel]

So I have a strong tendency to self-sabotage when I know my actions would be pleasing to my parents.  I would rather cling to a self-concept of deficiency and be dependent (but have the illusion of resistance and "independence") than branch out on my own.

Because of that I also have a tendency to parentify my superiors and seek unearned validation from them.  I'm not as emotional healthy as you; I can do this with any superior, not just a narcissistic one.  The narcissists relate well to that dynamic, though, as they are masters in fostering double-bind of dependence-autonomy in others.  So I believe that in the past I have actually gravitated more toward narcissistic profs and mentors, trading the specious validation for real progress in my field.  That's something I want to avoid in the future.

Yeah, that.  Although the N profs and mentors never wanted anything to do with me, b/c I wasn't popular enough for them, so my mentors and profs tended to be real people with good intentions.  Trouble is, I let them down b/c I chose N's to be my closest friends/husband and focused on the N to the exclusion of my own work/studies.

[Never again]

That's scary what you say about the self-sabotage, Imogene. And also very sad. I know all about self-sabotage .. But I hadn't ever thought of it before in terms of a strategy to avoid that feeling of engulfment.

Smothering and suffocation. Those assaults on our sense of self really felt (feel) life-threatening to us. It's astounding.

If anyone in my family is good at anything, my mother always finds a reason for it in our genes: 'Well, of course you're a good teacher, Never, weren't your grandparents and two of your uncles teachers?' 'Well, of course you're a good musician, Never's brother, hasn't there always been music in the family?' It's just another way of devaluing our own contribution to our achievement. As though we hadn't spent years learning and practicing to be good at what we do. It's probably not intentional on her part, but it shows the difficulty she has seeing us as individuals.

On the other hand, if we're good at anything that nobody in the family has done before, at best she shows no interest whatsoever, and at worst she disparages the activity.
 
As for me being more emotionally healthy than you .. Not so fast! That idea makes me tear up and smile at the same time. I've only just started to reveal my fragilities here.

It's snowing here. Absolutely beautiful! I got up really early this morning and went out - I wanted to be the first to make footprints on the garden path. Then I ran down the road and slipped and got covered in snow. I was laughing at myself. The one big piece of luck I had in my life was all the brothers and sisters. For all the dysfunction involving my mother, there was still a lot of play and laughter amongst us - we were left to our own devices a lot of the time and we had a lot of fun.

[honeybearII]

So I'm naive and not at all clever in my dealings with others and probably shoot myself in the foot a lot of the time. But really I would prefer to remain that way - if the alternative is watch my words and never admit to any weaknesses and always look out for my own interests. It's the damn 'be a good person' thing again. I'm beginning to realise how hugely conditioned I am by the moralistic aspects of my religious upbringing... Or maybe it's the combination of the 'fear of God' and the fear of the N parent

Never, this was in your original post.  I have to admit that for most of my life I believed that if I was open and up-front, that the people I was dealing with were acting in a reciprocal manner.  It took all the secrets to come out about what my exNH had been doing for 32 years (the infidelity, the lies, the manipulation) for me to finally realize that I had been naive and delusional to believe that I was being treated as I was treating. 

The old adage says, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you".  It does NOT, however, guarantee that they WILL treat you in a reciprocally kind and open way.  It only says that in our dealings with others we treat them as WE would LIKE to be treated.  I think that targets of Ns tend to be waaay too trusting, and some of us for waaay too long.  I am much more cautious in my dealings with people now and simply don't start out thinking they have my best interests at heart.  Most people don't.  They have their OWN self-interests at heart, and if they can use you, they will.  I have found it is the RARE person, the exception, not the rule, to find a fellow human being who is the kind of person who can earn my friendship.  I have been burned too many times and simply never really saw it for what it was.
Honey

[loved2much]

 I'm beginning to realise how hugely conditioned I am by the moralistic aspects of my religious upbringing... Or maybe it's the combination of the 'fear of God' and the fear of the N parent ..

Me too!  Thanks for a great thread!

[Never again]

I am much more cautious in my dealings with people now and simply don't start out thinking they have my best interests at heart.  Most people don't.  They have their OWN self-interests at heart, and if they can use you, they will.  I have found it is the RARE person, the exception, not the rule, to find a fellow human being who is the kind of person who can earn my friendship.  I have been burned too many times and simply never really saw it for what it was.
Honey

Hi Honey,

What's it like having that perspective on people? You don't sound at all bitter or paranoid, just kind of calm and realistic. Since I see you're a WoN advisor and have a couple of thousand posts under your belt, I'm just going to assume you're, like, really advanced in your healing :-). So what does life look like from over there?

Never again