Too open?

[Never again]

I'm beginning to realise how hugely conditioned I am by the moralistic aspects of my religious upbringing... Or maybe it's the combination of the 'fear of God' and the fear of the N parent ..

Me too!  Thanks for a great thread!

Hi loved2much,

It's turned into a pretty good thread alright, hasn't it? I could start another five threads or so on the different thoughts that have emerged.

I wanted to get back to that very point, especially in view of what Jenny said (are you still reading here or are you too busy composing dirty rhymes and planning debauchery in Malta? - how far you've come since inviting me to an OCD party picking tiny beads off a carpet in outer Texas  ).

Anyway, I'm still ruminating on the moralistic thing. I have a big theory which will be revealed in all its glory in a new thread any day now ...

There's so much going on on this forum I swear I just can't keep up.

[JennyWren]

I am very much glued to this thread Never Again...and now I am racked with anticipation of your Big Theory. 

(Oh how I remember the itty-bitty bead picking-up party. Still very much up for that.  )

[alatariel]

Yeaah, that...

[honeybearII]

Never Again, I am almost 10 years down the road from when I first discovered the extent of my exNH's deceptions and manipulations.  I am remarried and happily, but the effect of what he put me through still lives on.  I think the thing I miss the most is my naivete, believe it or not.  I was always one of those open, trusting people who simply believed the best of people.  I don't any longer.  Even my ex, at the height of the D&D, told me my ability to delude myself was phenomenal, LOL. 

As to the point about "moral upbringing", I am the poster child for how that kind of "Do Unto Others" thinking can really hamper you from seeing people for who they are.  I simply didn't have the tools to understand that people lie.  They cheat.  They purposely manipulate your feelings.  They will pretend to be a friend and be anything BUT.  You cannot trust everyone. 

Now I know that most people are really only concerned with what THEY want.  If that means throwing you under the bus.....so be it.  As I said, it is the RARE person who is a true friend and who truly loves you and would NEVER purposely hurt you.  I find it very sad that I DO understand that now.  I enjoyed living 60 years thinking people were, at heart, mostly good.  I miss that person but I am a lot smarter now and a bit nostalgic for that Delusional System.  It served me well for a long time.
Honey

[pearlsb4swine]

I am definitely one of those people who want to see the best in everyone and believe in the healing power of love and all that nice stuff.  I always knew there was evil in the world, I just didn't think about it much.  I saw evil as "sickness" and wanted everyone to heal and get better and sing kumbaya. 

I see now what honeybear is talking about--that there is so much more going on with people than what you see in their face, and a lot of it is not pretty.  That you need to arm yourself and protect yourself. 

But even understanding all of that, I still think that there are plenty of good people in the world, and plenty of people that are reasonably good.  That theoretically, you can be friends with people who may not love you with a love that is perfect and never failing.  Someone may not be willing to set themselves on fire for you but they're still fun to go out to lunch with.

There are a lot of personality disordered people out there, but there are even more who are normal.  I think the thing is not to put all your eggs in one basket.  Not rely on one person to save you. 

I dunno--this is a thought in progress.  But I do not want to be bitter and suspicious.  I need to feel like I am coming through this a better person.  That being equipped with the truth about Ns will make me more effective at healthy relationships, rather than making me despair that they are even possible.

I know this sounds so hopelessly earnest and sanctimonious.   

Pearls

[Imogene]

I don't think Honey necessarily sees this as a bad thing.  People are innately self-involved; it's hard-wired into our nature. 

What I think is terrible is how narcissists must manipulate their prey into believing the opposite, that they are givers and we are the takers.  Now, it's very hard to know the extent to which they are aware of the manipulation involved here.  I think X and my mother genuinely see themselves as giving people, who make enormous sacrifices on behalf of the poor schmucks out there who can't do for themselves.  They are blind to the element of self-involvement even as they must be aware of how they save the best for themselves, like a charity that spends more of its profits paying salaries than giving to the needy. 

I don't know.  Before I go too much off the rails, I think that there is a big difference between self-interest (even if it goes too far) and narcissistic self-absorption.  It is much better to have a person you thought was a friend never call and check up on you, than it is to have someone fawn over you and say how much they care because they want you to perceive their generosity of spirit, then never call.

[pearlsb4swine]

Ns complicate things endlessly for all the rest of us.

I see normal self absorption as someone who doesn't call you when you're sick, but also does not do anything to actively harm you.  They don't pretend to be something they are not.  The N pretends to be your friend by coming to see you when you are sick so they can go back and tell everyone how dirty your house was and how much weight you've gained and how your children are out of control bad.

Most people are self absorbed most of the time, but it's not necessarily a problem because they see your interests as aligning with theirs.  You go out to lunch, you both have a good time.  Sometimes I listen to you and sometimes you listen to me.  Even being caring and helpful to a friend can be seen as self-absorption, because if I take care of you hopefully you return the favor when I need something.  Because Ns see all other people as competing for what is rightly theirs, they don't make those investments in other people.

Self absorption per se is not a bad thing.  It's when your interests do not align with the other person's--what do they do then?  How far will they extend themselves when there is not much chance of a return on their investment?  That's where the rubber meets the road.

Pearls

[Legs]

<I enjoyed living 60 years thinking people were, at heart, mostly good.  I miss that person but I am a lot smarter now and a bit nostalgic for that Delusional System.  It served me well for a long time. Honey>>

I only got 58 years of believing people were either good hearted or else they had been damaged by things in life and they were doing the best they cold. Part of me still believes that, I guess though I keep seeing "evidence" that our genes and the way we're physiologically made determines so much of what we are.

It's hard for me to change my feeling about this. I don't know how to judge or access people now, so I think the best thing now for me is to withdraw as much as possible. Only have contact in "must do" situations or places like here where I am not really real. I wish soooooooooooooooooo much I was able to just distance myself or keep part of myself back from people, but I don't know how to do that and I think it's impossible to change my entire personality even if I do now understand why I do the things I do. So, I know it's bad and potentially harmful, so I feel like now I am a recovering alcoholic and I can never have a drink/relationship again because it's too dangerous.

That sounds crazy but I think I am perhaps crazy. And crazy is really just your mind's way of taking care of itself however it has to do it, right?



Legs

[alatariel]

Hey, Legs, I'm ridin' the crazy train with ya'.  I managed to make it 41 years believing that most ppl were good underneath, and that PD's lived mainly in the pages of psych textbooks and locked wards.

Now I know better, and I don't ever want to depend on anyone again.  I don't ever want to love anyone again, other than my boys.  I'm pretty sure nobody but my boys is ever going to love me.  And I'm pretty sure there is no such thing as friendship, just ppl with whom your interests temporarily align, and they'll go their own way before they'll go out of their way to do a damn thing for you unless you're paying them.

[Legs]

Okie dokie then, Ala~~~~~~~~~~~ see? It totally makes sense and really, if you have one little bit of brain function left, it seems stupid to me to ever want to do anything but hide away and be safe.

I can see how I might fall for the perfect combination of funny and smart and be swept away again by some huge load of horseshit from man or woman, so the best thing is not to be available to ever even hear one word of it.

You are a smart cookie, I think, to have figured this out at 40. It took me 20 years longer than it too you so who's really the stupid one???

Clue: It's not you.


Legs

[alatariel]

I could see myself falling for the combo of funny and smart, and all the love-bombing and flattering bullspit they do in the beginning, not to mention all the "us vs. them" opportunities they give you to make you think they're on your side.


But that won't happen, b/c it's not as though anyone is lining up for the chance.  I've had one date in 7 years, and I saw what an N he was right away, although 20 years ago I'd have been impressed by his bullspit.  I've had one offer of friendship (since the troll) and I saw what an N she is, too.  Which leads me to conclude that only N's are going to be attracted to me in any way, platonic or romantic.  Therefore, anyone who shows any interest in me is to be immediately distrusted and run from.

[CZBZ]

Hi NeverAgain!

I got a new ipad for Christmas and it's so easy to take with me everywhere. My problem now is that I can't stand typing on it so I read a thread and wait to reply when I'm on my computer. By that point in time, I've forgotten what i was going to say. I shall need to change my ways, otherwise, I'll become one of those 'lurkers' who reads and never posts (hint, hint to all you lurkers out there!)

This is a really interesting thread though with lots of perspectives and insights. At some point, we must reintegrate ourselves with society and hopefully, live our lives in a more aware manner that recognizes human weaknesses. There are people I can trust to be as sane as myself and those folks won't see 'self-disclosure' as an opportunity. I can't know who those people are though and it will take time (and 'bad' experiences) before discerning pathological behavior from everyday normal dysfunction.

Self-disclosure, such as your admission that you weren't up to par on the last job task, would be fine with most people. Even bosses who aren't narcissistic, appreciate an employee's honesty and see this as a mark of integrity--someone they can trust to push themselves to do the best job they can. I've never been a boss and I've never been actively employed but I am a fine listener of those who are and sometimes self-disclosure works well and at other times, it's a way for the boss to 'scapegoat' you as forum members have suggested. What's the difference?

Well, a key study on narcissism and aggression pointed out that even sub-clinical narcissists (people who do not meet the criteria for a NPD), 'vulnerability increases aggression.' I remember when this study first became public and people like myself were going 'Wow! O Wow!" Not that we didn't know this from experience but its always a relief when researchers create a study proving what the rest of us layfolks have been saying: being vulnerable, admitting to fault, expressing our feelings, apologizing, etc. empowers the narcissist.

In normal situations, people are disarmed, softened, responsive. This could almost be a litmus test for narcissism: when taking responsibility for your mistakes is not met with reciprocal honesty. Or if your honesty is not met with stupefaction. I say 'stupefaction' because it seems to be less-and-less common for people to step up to the plate and admit they make mistakes. That's probably because we have a world run by narcissists and people have learned that unlike the old baseball movies when the catcher admits the ball hit the ground, we are not rewarded for being honest. The point is winning and not getting caught.

This awareness hasn't made me cynical though. Not really. Just more cautious because I don't know who's narcissistic and who isn't until they 'out' themselves. And I don't like being the foil to their pathology. I like what Freezerburned wrote about being compassionate to yourself. I am learning to trust when proven trustworthy. I sneak up on that.

I think it was honorable to admit to having done less than excellent on your assignment. I would see you as a person of high integrity (whose conscience would keep her in check and make my job as her boss, all that much easier). So my advice would be to keep learning about narcissism and if someone appears to be 'narcissistic', put up your guards/boundaries. I can't see where living a 'guarded and distrusting' life will give us anything other than a rental space in NarcVille, too!

Give yourself time to sort through this horrid experience. And do whatever it takes to make sure you don't have a secondary victimization for at least a couple of years. Overtime, we seem to be able to live a normal life again with other normal people only we're wiser, much wiser. And when an employee comes to us and says she didn't do as well as she'd hoped, we'll appreciate her a honesty and give her a raise. 


Hugs,
CZ

[Never again]

  As I said, it is the RARE person who is a true friend and who truly loves you and would NEVER purposely hurt you.  I find it very sad that I DO understand that now.  I enjoyed living 60 years thinking people were, at heart, mostly good.  I miss that person but I am a lot smarter now and a bit nostalgic for that Delusional System.

Dear Honey, Thanks very much for your reply and sorry I couldn't get back to you sooner.

So you're saying the N relationship destroyed the trusting part of you and you still mourn that part. Even though you're a lot smarter now.

OK, I get it. Believing in universal good was a delusion. A nice delusion. But a delusion. Like believing in Santa Claus, I guess. Not something you can carry into grown-up life with you. But what a shame there really is no Santa Claus.

I suppose the cultural systems that taught us about the good in people simply forgot to mention that that's an ideal (worth striving for, no doubt, and some may have achieved a good degree of it), it's not everyday, everyperson reality.

I noticed in your other post that you say people *earn* your friendship. That's another good thing to remember (although entering into the thought risks opening up the old self-esteem can of worms ..    )

Thanks, Honey!

[Never again]

Most people are self absorbed most of the time, but it's not necessarily a problem because they see your interests as aligning with theirs.  You go out to lunch, you both have a good time.  Sometimes I listen to you and sometimes you listen to me.  ...

Self absorption per se is not a bad thing.  It's when your interests do not align with the other person's--what do they do then?  How far will they extend themselves when there is not much chance of a return on their investment?  That's where the rubber meets the road.

Yes. All of that. I used to be gobsmacked by el bastardo's belligerence when his own daughter needed him, say, for example, to talk to one of her teachers about something, or bring her somewhere (that he hadn't decided she had to go ...). He used to always say this thing .. "Do you think it's fair that I have to go to all this trouble?!" And I'd say as gently as possible, "Well, I'm not a parent, but, yes, I think that's what parents do .. "

And then there's what Imogene says - the manipulation. I think it's perfectly fine and natural that we look after our own interests. There is a healthy degree of narcissism that we need for our own survival and to protect our own kin. It's biological.

But when an N does not want to listen to you, they will not say, "Look, I'm really sorry, I have to go pick up my son from school (get back to work, just amn't feeling well .. ), but I'll call you later''. They will say 'You talk too much!' and 'I'm a great listener' and 'I care about you more than I care about anybody, how dare you suggest otherwise!' It's the false self that counts. Always.

[Never again]

CZ, there's so much wisdom in your post I wouldn't even know where to start quoting. I'm glad to see that you, like Honey, are not cynical about the reality of the human condition. That gives me hope that I will come out of the Nasty experience changed but not Nasty myself.

There's no question I've developed N-dar now. I even notice little 'n' moments in people I'm pretty sure are not even sub-clinical Ns. They upset me momentarily, but there's no ongoing pattern, so that's OK. Plus I'm glad and kind of proud of myself that now I often have an immediate gut reaction to these mini red flags. My automatic response is to stand a little taller and express my own need a little more audibly. This works pretty well with the 'normals'. I still have to develop a good strategy for the sub-clinicals and the full-blowns :-)

Could you give me a reference for the study you mentioned? Is it available here on the forum?

Thanks again!
N.

[CZBZ]

I ran a quick search and did not turn up the research article we passed around from one blog to another. I will keep looking, though. As I recall, it was connected with research  on the Dark Triad (Machiavellian traits).

If you use the Machiavellian template for understanding power dynamics, then it make sense as to why a narcissist would see 'vulnerability' as a weakness he or she could take advantage of. It's an admission of inferiority and narcissists are focused on maintaining 'superiority' over others. When you admit to being weak, making a mistake, having complications in your personal life, the narcissist will be offended (not understanding!) They may even start looking for your replacement because Ns deserve the cream-of-the-crop and if you are not giving them your full and undivided attention, then you are failing them. They might even take it personally, an affront to their ego.

I am not cynical about the human race. I am hopeful. It amazes me that we extend ourselves to other people the way we do. That we empathize with total strangers and suffer 'with them' when we would not have to do that, would we? I am stunned at the human drive to nurture our young---to care for a crying baby who through no fault of their own, changes our lives completely. Witnessing parental affection and devotion to a child reminds me of the human ability to love each other in a way that places demands on the lover.

I have found that while we think of ourselves as "special" individuals and unique, people generally respond in similar ways. We think in similar ways, even the same cognitive fallacies. We assume people will respond similarly and most of the time, IF you are an emotionally intelligent person who is "normal", you haven't articulated or even thought about how you expected someone to respond---until they didn't. Normal people are not thinking about power structures or maintaining superiority at someone else's expense. Normal people are not plotting on how to manipulate people (or the system) to serve themselves.Until we get 'burnt' by a narc, we might go through life without ever considering the 'pathological continuum'.

I think though, that those of us who are resilient enough to bounce back from our inevitable harm without losing our love for the human race, have a responsibility to protect ourselves from secondary victimization AND support our learning process as human beings. We are just now beginning to understand that not all people are endowed with empathy. Not all people are of good will. Not all people have a tender inner child who needs our validation. Not all people can be saved.

I am cautious about flipping to the opposite extreme---from an unquestioned belief that all people are good, to the belief that all people are bad. It's easy to fall into a black-or-white perspective when you've been taken advantage of (duped) by a narcissist or psychopath. Our healing is in the balance, not the extremes. It would be easier to say "everyone is a piece of self-serving crap" but that's just as delusional as believing everyone is morally bonded to their fellow human being. Some are. Some aren't. Our job is discerning the difference.

I didn't want to learn about Relationships + Power because in a way, it diminished the mystery/beauty of relationships for me. I have learned these things because the best way to end the "narcissistic epidemic" is to stop being duped, manipulated, conned, and abused.


CZ
 

[JennyWren]

Well, a key study on narcissism and aggression pointed out that even sub-clinical narcissists (people who do not meet the criteria for a NPD), 'vulnerability increases aggression.'

And here lies the key. In an ideal world....displaying vulnerability, honesty, openness, trust would be rewarded in kind.

Those of us (which is all of us here) who seek real relationships with people we meet... naturally extend these things to people. If you are going to connect meaningfully with real people you HAVE to at some point trust and be vulnerable. There has to be an exchange of vulnerability for trust to form.

Now here comes the rub....Ns...or even other self-absorbed folks will NOT respond positively to these things. They will take them and enjoy them...and when it suits them...be it straight away or six months later...they will crush you with them.

Having..like so many here...emerged from a relationship where the abuse of vulnerability was chronic...I am yet to conceive of a balance to go forward. My current state is a bunker mentality. Until I work out what the h*ll is going on out there.

[Rosemary]

Can i share the bunker Jenny its too damn scary out there for me  too,ive never stayed away from people or within the home  so much before like this
after my first marriage breakup i was back out again within a few weeks ,joining clubs etc .This time im not i feel too timid  and wary of ALL people  .this is sooo not like me  ,this is what abuse  does  to  you .

[Legs]

<<I think though, that those of us who are resilient enough to bounce back from our inevitable harm without losing our love for the human race,>>

and therein lies the true question..............for those us us that are resilient enough to bounce back. Some of us don't feel like we are, don't believe we are, don't want to risk it, know we cannot afford to risk it, whatever.....it's up to each one of us to access OUR self knowledge and *if* we want to someday want to enter the wonderful world of relationships again.

Maybe we will. Maybe we won't. But we get to make the choice in our own good time and I completely understand now so many things I never understood before..why decent people go off the rails and do crazy stuff, why some people completely withdraw from society, why people just basically give up and say flock it.


I read recently an article that talked about how many things can happen to someone before they go over the edge..some people can take a lot of bad and still come out fighting and some can't. We can't ever know what kind of inner life anyone is having no matter how they might act o the outside.

I think for some of us, the risk is not worth the possible reward or maybe we're just too tired to even contemplate it again. We deserve the right to react in a way that is true to us and not be forced back out into the world by well meaning folks. They have not walked a mile, etc.....


Legs, who thinks I'll be perfectly happy not engaging with the world in anything other than a superficial way if I ever have financial stability again in my entire life which doesn't seem possible to me at this time