The Red Flags I Ignored...

[daisyk9292]

I'm feeling a little hesitant about sharing these things and asking for input, but I figure it's a good way to learn and process stuff. This is stuff I used to just sit and ruminate about, but now it's just more curiosity and wondering how others on the board think of these things.

In the very beginning of my EA with the exNbf, he was "Into me" and I was his "true love" this turned into "I need to get rid of you some how" and I'm still unsure exactly why but it doesn't really matter to me now. It just is.

But at the beginning when he was so kind and loving with me, in our first phone conversation, he made two statements against others, that struck me in my gut as just plain WRONG. If I had known about NPD I'd like to think I would have been clearer and not able to rationalize it away. But even not knowing, I'm surprised I did.

But I'd like to get input on if these statements sound like N type of statements.

The first one came when we were catching up on our families. He has one older brother, who got married when N and I dated in HS. I went to the shower, I went out of town with them for the wedding. The N and his family simply GUSHED over the new bride. The N would go on and on about how "hot" his brothers fiance was. His mom LOVED her. Me being insecure in HS and NEVER getting these compliments from him back then, I always felt "less than"

So fast forward 20 years later, I ask about his brother and sister in law - He says, "Sister in Law is a bipch!" I was floored by that! I asked why. Here's the story I got.

"Big brother gave her a new diamond ring to celebrate 25 years together, in front of the whole family. My wife and my mother, put on fake rings, and joked around saying "Oh look at my gorgeous new ring!" "How special we are and how wonderful our husbands are to give us one!" They were kind of making fun of it from the sounds of it.

So then he tells me that the sister/daughter in law, wrote them a letter, explaining how they took a very special moment and mocked it which she didn't appreciate and it hurt her feelings"

The N said to me, "What could we do? We couldn't tell him that she wrote a letter like that disrespecting our mom, it would crush him"

The second red flag - I asked him directly, why he didn't introduce me to his wife when we saw each other at the party. His response in a little boy tantrum like tone, "Because she wouldn't come over! She's jealous and insecure! You're husband was nice and came up and introduced himself, talked etc. But she had to be a bipch about the whole thing."


Like I said this was at the very beginning of the EA, when he was telling me how he had changed since HS, how he was so sorry for how he had treated me and asking for my forgiveness. Yet I brushed off these things and tried to not make a big deal out of them. But something inside of me knew it wasn't right and ignored them.

I'm not beating myself up for doing so, I understand now, why I didn't see it more clearly.

I'm just wondering though, if these statements strike anyone as N like statements. For my own sanity to know that he was like this all along, and he didn't really "change" during the course of our EA and in response to something I had done or didn't do.

It shows he's like this no matter who or what the circumstances. I think it will help me to take the whole thing less personally.

Hope this makes sense, and I'd be grateful for any input.

Thanks!

[pearlsb4swine]

Sounds like that family is a nest of Ns all right.

The sister-in-law story I could totally relate to.  When you were in high school, the sister in law was being idealized.  Same experience I had with my N inlaws.  And years later, she is being devalued.  She is blatantly mocked in front of the whole family, yet your N presents this as if it's funny.  She writes a letter expressing her feelings, and that can't be tolerated.  Talking about your feelings is considered disrespect to an N.  I shudder to think what happened to that sister in law next.

His wife, too, has been discarded, although he keeps her around, because she does his laundry with stain removing detergent like our friend Mr. Schmoopie.  Or whatever his name was!  Along with her laundry responsibilities, she is assigned blame for any social lapses on the N's fault.

A big fat nest of slithering Ns, if you ask me.   

[daisyk9292]

Thanks pearls. Those are pretty much my thoughts all the way around regarding the N and his family. But I really needed someone to read about these few specifics and to help me believe/know I'm getting it right and seeing it for what it is now.  I love clarity. 

[Imogene]

In both cases, he blames a woman for his own lack of manners (or his families'), and yes that is narcissistic.  Doesn't the sister-in-law have the right to complain about insensitive behavior?  How does that make her disrespectful? 

Moreover, he calls both women "b!tches."  As a mild disclaimer, I feel very strongly about the use of this word.  To me that is the exact equivalent of any white person using the "n" word.  A man who calls any woman a "b!tch" is not a man I want to spend time with.  A men who calls his wife a "b!tch" to a woman he is dallying with is a cad, pure and simple.  I think a woman can predict with nearly absolute certainty that she will be abused by a man who would do that.  And he's a school principal?  Depressing.

[daisyk9292]

Imogene - Yes it is very depressing. That aspect is what messes with my head the most. He is an elementary school principal at a highly regarded school district in the area. One of the top ranked in the state. Just that fact made me believe he was far more emotionally intelligent than I was, otherwise how could he even do his job? I have to be the screwed up one here!

The way I know he conducts his personal life now, he is like split personalities. I can't understand how he manages to get away with it.  It's very unnerving, not to mention the filter it's created in my head when I deal with school professionals at my daughters school! I wonder if instead of teaching my daughter, the teacher and the principal are sending love texts, and planning to get it on after school!

I'm no longer as gullible as I was so that's a plus!

The bipch term, is so obviously disrespectful I still can't believe I was able to let it go and move forward after that first phone call. It bothered me, but I for some reason I gave the benefit of the doubt. I wasn't in a right state of mind obviously.

When we met face to face, the one time, I luckily was really jolted into reality when he cracked a joke about a male friend of his and called him a pu&*y, in regards to how he was broken up over a girlfriend or something. He was attempting to emasculate a male friend for having feelings.  The next day that's when I told my H everything that had been going on, and it was the best thing I could have done. It made the game over for the N, for anyone to know he was involved with me. We were no longer in an "isolated" relationship.

I'm so happy to be seeing this more clearly now. The truth pisses you off at first, but it does set you free.

[CZBZ]

First red flag for that family is their inability to value intimacy. An intimate moment compels narcissists to react, behaving like silly schoolgirls, parading fake rings around and yes, ruining a tender moment between a husband and wife.

Now why that son believed they would behave differently is another red flag...sounds like he's confused himself. If you see your family's dysfunction and you honestly accept the way they are as how they are, you would protect yourself and your wife by keeping your celebration private. Then again, why would he need an audience to declare his love? Call me anti-romantic but I wonder if maybe he was telling his family how important she was to him. I'm jest speculatin; here but my guess is that his mother and sister(s) do a lot of shite-talking behind her back.

I love stories. I also love imagining stories. 

I see that situation as yes, a red flag for narcissism. A pathetic attempt to squelch intimacy and maybe steal the attention from the daughter-in-law. The whole scenario sounds creepily common, though. Common does not necessarily mean 'healthy'. 

As far as your second story goes, he was using the old foolproof tactic narcissists always use with a wife and a 'potential girlfriend'. He accuses his wife of abusing him (she wouldn't even say "Hi", poor baby!) and the potential new supply WANTS to believe his wife is a PIG which brings her oxytocin army to full command and voila, the new supply is taking care of poor widdle N. I'm not making fun of anyone who's fallen for this age-old trick because heaven knows, I have, too.

I catch myself in the act of blaming women or giving automatic credibility to a man. This is off-topic (again!) but I have found that working through my issues with my own mother, allowed me to accept myself and all women. As long as we blame our mothers, it's way tooooo easy for a stupid narcissist to seize the opportunity and blame his wife, his mother, his girlfriend OR his sister for mistreating him. I watch carefully for MY mothering instincts and really really really pay attention when the oxytocin is flowing.

So the Red Flag I see in this brief exchange was his anger towards his wife, his divide-and-conquer behavior pitting you (the nice girl) against her (the bad girl).

When a narcissist makes you feel sorry for him or her, they're displaying a false modesty, a pretend powerlessness. It's a cognitive head trip when they clobber you later and laugh about your gullibility, isn't it?!!!! I think what makes this experience so 'shattering' is our inability to process what just happened. They pretended to be innocent victims who needed our help and then they victimized us. How does an innocent victim do something like that? I think we go kinda nutty for awhile, until we sort it out. I guess for me, I had to come to the conclusion that it wasn't an either-or answer. It's both/and. Some people can be victims and abusers.

I also think that one of the Red Flags for narcissism is that they continue to see themselves as victims, no matter the situation, no matter the circumstances.


CZ
 

[notakennedy]

I also think that one of the Red Flags for narcissism is that they continue to see themselves as victims, no matter the situation, no matter the circumstances.

.  The thing that I struggle with, is that 'victims' can be so convincing at the outset. Like, you have nothing to compare this to - the N's ex is a completely unknown quantity and if you tend towards being an honest and open sort yourself, you could be forgiven for thinking you have been told the truth.  I remember so well that NH came across terribly misunderstood and mistreated, and yes, he used the b*&tch word to describe her, maybe not at first but it crept into his conversations about his life with her.  Once, much later I said that perhaps SHE considered HIM to be an utter b*&stard, to which he said "well perhaps I was a b*&std because she was such a b*&tch". Of course, it was all her fault.

The trouble is (and I am positive that I ignored at least one or two glaringly red flags at the beginning), that we DON'T WANT TO BELIEVE THEM.  I remember practically shaking my head as if to get rid of the niggling doubt that crept in. And as for the oxytocin, that 'little boy lost' thing they do produces an automatic and immediate reaction in us, we just want to make up for all the awful things that happened to make him so sad and lonely, and of course, we will do it so much better than his previous partners, we will never be the "b&tch" - which is exactly what we eventually DO become (in their eyes).

However, those red flags now are a learned experience. I personally am extremely aware and perhaps even a little cynical (which I have always tried very hard not to be). I can discern narcissistic behaviours SO much more quickly, oh hindsight, you are a CRUEL thing ....

[JennyWren]

Very insightful comments above regarding the two examples you shared daisy.

I just wanted to add...perhaps because I am instinctively emphasising with the sister/daughter-in-law...it strikes me as high on the Red Flag Scale that the sister/daughter-in-law felt compelled to write a letter HERSELF....alone....to express her hurt at the ring mocking experience.

One might expect a son to stand with his wife....particularly after so many years....to express solidarity in their joint disgust at the infantile ridiculing behaviour. But the husband, from the description, stood back.....afraid to get in the firing line.

Sounds very familiar to me. Yuck.

[notakennedy]

One might expect a son to stand with his wife....particularly after so many years....

  JW, that's what you would expect ... not so with an N-family. They've got no concept of loyalty to anyone other than their own little in-bred clique.

[daisyk9292]

As far as your second story goes, he was using the old foolproof tactic narcissists always use with a wife and a 'potential girlfriend'. He accuses his wife of abusing him (she wouldn't even say "Hi", poor baby!) and the potential new supply WANTS to believe his wife is a PIG which brings her oxytocin army to full command and voila, the new supply is taking care of poor widdle N. I'm not making fun of anyone who's fallen for this age-old trick because heaven knows, I have, too.

Yep, that pretty much explains it.

The trouble is (and I am positive that I ignored at least one or two glaringly red flags at the beginning), that we DON'T WANT TO BELIEVE THEM.  I remember practically shaking my head as if to get rid of the niggling doubt that crept in. And as for the oxytocin, that 'little boy lost' thing they do produces an automatic and immediate reaction in us, we just want to make up for all the awful things that happened to make him so sad and lonely, and of course, we will do it so much better than his previous partners, we will never be the "b&tch" - which is exactly what we eventually DO become (in their eyes

Yep, that too!

One might expect a son to stand with his wife....particularly after so many years....to express solidarity in their joint disgust at the infantile ridiculing behaviour. But the husband, from the description, stood back.....afraid to get in the firing line.

Although my impression always was the N's older brother had more of a mind of his own, was less controlled than the N was by his mother, I'm pretty sure the nonverbal agreement has always been "Nobody ever challenges mom"

JW, that's what you would expect ... not so with an N-family. They've got no concept of loyalty to anyone other than their own little in-bred clique.

That's pretty accurate too.

Thank you. This has been incredibly helpful to me. 

[nomom4me]

"Big brother gave her a new diamond ring to celebrate 25 years together, in front of the whole family. My wife and my mother, put on fake rings, and joked around saying "Oh look at my gorgeous new ring!" "How special we are and how wonderful our husbands are to give us one!" They were kind of making fun of it from the sounds of it.

So then he tells me that the sister/daughter in law, wrote them a letter, explaining how they took a very special moment and mocked it which she didn't appreciate and it hurt her feelings"

The N said to me, "What could we do? We couldn't tell him that she wrote a letter like that disrespecting our mom, it would crush him"

The "we" business drives me insane.  My mother does that to avoid being accountable for anything that might possibly make her look bad.  "we decided to put you in grandmas room".  "we have no idea what you do for work".  If it's taking credit she'll use the 1st person "I think I did the very best I could under very difficult circumstances". 

And who the hell collaborates on an email?  Only co-dependants.  It is impossible to reason with people who refuse to take accountability for their words and actions.

[daisyk9292]

It is impossible to reason with people who refuse to take accountability for their words and actions.

Ha! Yes, all I can say is hindsight is 20/20. But boy when I think back to the first few conversations there were glaring signs telling me to RUN!

He told me that his little boy was looking at his high school photos and saw our prom picture. His son asked, "Who is that girl?" He said his wife said to their little boy, "That's daddy's first and TRUE love" and he told me he gave no reply to his wife or son, just let it go. 

The dialogue in my head went like this, "Did he just say I was his true love?" "Did he just tell me this exchange was with his little boy and wife?"

I of course clung to the sentence that felt good and put aside the one that screamed DYSFUNCTION!!

No use kicking myself over it. That whole story was probably a lie anyway. Which if it was only kind of adds to that humiliating feeling. What a DICKHEAD!!!

[Legs]

<< It is impossible to reason with people who refuse to take accountability for their words and actions.>>


Printing this out in HUGE RED LETTERS and taping it to my bathroom mirror so I will see it EVERY SINGLE DAY!!!!!!!!!!!!



Wow. That just put it all in a perfect little rat's nest that I can along with me wherever I go for the rest of my life.


Thank You,
Legs

[pearlsb4swine]

It's also impossible to have a relationship with someone who habitually lies. 

We blame ourselves for being taken in by their nonsense.  But we didn't know then about the lying.  The constant deceit, about everything.  My xnh lied about everything--where he went, what he did, what he thought, what he felt, what he said, what I said, what other people said.  Normal healthy people are just not equipped to deal with that in an intimate relationship.  That's not what we are built for. 


Pearls

[Rosemary]

yes pearls the bloomin lies mine was the same ,his mother lies too  ,but i was brought up not to lie ,and didnt think grownups lied like that .sillyme .