Dealing with the Devil

[Imogene]

I went to Costco this afternoon, and because the Superbowl was about to start, the store had emptied considerably.  So there I was, wheeling my giant cart, trying to stick to my list or make sure any improvised item was a comparative bargain.  I have a love/hate relationship with Costco.  I like to save money, and they carry many organic products.  They treat their employees well.  The pizza is cheap and pretty tasty.  But on the other hand, it makes me sick to see the tables piled with jeans sewn in Pearl Delta factories and hardcover books written by celebrities with nothing to say and plastic wrapped containers of food towering high above the display shelves.  How much of this stuff will just end up in the trash without even being eaten/read/worn?  I try to reason with myself against the feeling of doom that overcomes me every time I shop here, and it's usually a losing battle.  I concentrate on doing math in my head: how much is it here for a pound of potatoes?  How many are likely to spoil before my daughter and I get around to eating them?  I know it doesn't matter.  I can't change the world by having less trash.  It won't even make my carbon footprint smaller.  Nevertheless, I ponder. 

Today I was thinking about something CZ wrote over in overwhelmed's thread, how dealing with a narcissist has nothing to do with love but is a matter of bloodless negotiations.  And I think of how much of my life I've frittered away creating win-win situations with narcissistic people, so that they would let me live in my quiet corner, not wasting a potato.  I think about how I want to be rewarded for reducing myself to a shadow, but when I look around, no one can see me or hear that I'm in need or I feel pain.

Sorry.  No question here.  Just a powerful insight.  It shouldn't be that way, of course.  A relationship ought to be shaped through compromise, not negotiation.  And yet compromise is something no narcissist I've ever met knows how to do.     

[daisyk9292]

Imogene - I'm not sure I understand your costco story. I translated it as you're concerned about consumption and waste. If I didn't get that correct, my apologies.

I just started a new school term, and I'm taking econ. The professor is the crazy greek man with a heavy accent. He announced on the first day, that he has been working on research to mine minerals in outer space, because we are using up our planets resources. By 2025 half of the worlds population will not have access to adequate water supply. I wanted to ask him if he'll be handing out antidepressants as part of the course.

I have admit I'm pretty ignorant about the environmental issues on our planet. I'm just too consumed with the environment in my own head for right now. If I can clean that up, then maybe I can do my part to help the rest of the world. Or at least try.

I think about how I want to be rewarded for reducing myself to a shadow, but when I look around, no one can see me or hear that I'm in need or I feel pain.

I am the "invisible girl" in my world. I am simply not seen, heard or understood by anyone. When I've tried I've received some kind of punishment.

I don't mean to hijack this and make it all about ME. But I approach these posts sometimes as sharing our experiences with each other to find common ground. It feels like hit or miss to me sometimes.

My friend, the one I've issues with lately, text me the other day. We agreed to meet for coffee, and now I have to prepare to tell her about her showing the picture etc. I'm not looking forward to it AT ALL. I'm already preparing myself to hear, "You are crazy and you've changed, you're losing it!" Something along those lines. Even though, I feel if anything, it's reversed, and she's the one who has changed on me.

This and therapy is the only place where I feel validated. Both really help, but I'd love to have even 1 person in the real world who gets it. I've actually considered going to an AA meeting and pretend that I have a drinking problem, just to connect with real people who share real problems. How weird is that??

But I have hit "bottom" in my life. At least I think. If I haven't man I am really in for it!!

I just find it hard to believe I am ever going to get into the "Healthy relationships" club and have a life of connection with other humans.

A relationship ought to be shaped through compromise, not negotiation.

I feel like all of life is about negotiation. And I SUCK at it, so I'm basically screwed.

[Chime]

I know it doesn't matter.  I can't change the world by having less trash.  It won't even make my carbon footprint smaller.  Nevertheless, I ponder. 

Your post was really powerful.  Thanks for putting it up!  I love reading what you write.
I am, however, going to have to respectfully disagree with the above statement.  It does matter.  One little change CAN make a difference.  And you matter, and the fact that you embrace these efforts to do the best you can for you and your daughter, to save money, and keep yourself small... well, that's HUGE!
You're amazing!
 
Chime

[JennyWren]

I think of how much of my life I've frittered away creating win-win situations with narcissistic people, so that they would let me live in my quiet corner, not wasting a potato.  I think about how I want to be rewarded for reducing myself to a shadow, but when I look around, no one can see me or hear that I'm in need or I feel pain.

Sorry.  No question here.  Just a powerful insight.  It shouldn't be that way, of course.  A relationship ought to be shaped through compromise, not negotiation.  And yet compromise is something no narcissist I've ever met knows how to do.     

Boom  ...that`s one of those revelations you can ONLY have while grocery shopping! than you for sharing it. Now you mention it...I too spent my married life at least at the negotiation table...bargaining everything...ANYTHING...just to be given a little space to quietly live....

And as time went on...my space became smaller....and uncomfortable...and the bargaining chips in my hand deflated in value. In the end...I had nothing to negotiate with. And no will...or room to move in my little suffocated space.

As anti-Ns....being everything an N is not....and nothing that he/she is...we get utterly squashed. As you say....when negotiations are taking place..compromise isn`t even on the table.

[Imogene]

Jen gets it.  Exactly.  The space gets awfully small, because you have negotiated away all the things you had to bargain with--your limited resources.  The way I see it, our recovery from this madness lies in making ourselves seen.  Which is really hard.

Daisy: your professor is an idiot.  If 50% of the world's population won't have access to potable drinking water by 2025, why is he not working to develop cheaper ways to desalinate water instead of thinking about mining minerals from neighboring planets? 

Thanks, chime!

That trip to Costco was truly an eye-opening experience for me.  First of all, it was one of the few places in the States that X and I would go.  Our life here had become utterly impoverished because I disliked doing things with him that much.  A new experience could go wrong in so many ways, so it was better to stick to the familiar.  We would often split up.  If there were Christmas toys displayed, I would take my daughter while he looked at wine.  Otherwise I would shop while he meandered with my daughter in the cart.  He had no patience for bargain hunting; it is beneath him.  I had a strange fugue moment when I thought we were still together, and then I felt horribly depressed, as the reality of my situation presented itself anew.  Add that to the usual sense of Costco doom, and it was pretty potent.  I escaped breaking down in tears by focusing on examining supplement labels. 

Sigh.

[Chime]

just wanted to add, that the small being huge I was talking about, was of course, green-speak
not about emotions or the like...
be as SEEN as you need to be! 
I see you! (or at least what you're saying)
(suddenly reminded of RomperRoom... oy)

Chime

[CZBZ]

I remember the  moment when my women studies profession (anthropology) talked about women's body language. How we sit. How we cross our legs, our arms. How we make ourselves as small as possible so we don't take up too much space...more than what's been allotted to us as females. Then she pointed out how the guys in our class were sitting. Legs spread wide, arms outstretched, taking up all the space they wanted because they could. it made me think about being in grade school and tripping over the boys big clod-hopper feet lazing into the aisle. And we girls sat there with our tiny feet and tiny Cinderella slippers, arms crossed, legs crossed, heads lowered just enough to appear demure. It's like we were erasing ourselves and we didn't even have to be taught to do this. It was socially sanctioned and culturally transmitted. Like a disappearing-girl virus. That was back in the 50-60's and things have changed. Now girls sit with their legs spread wide. ROFLMBO Not sure if that's progress or devolution? 

Your post brought up that memory for me, Imogene. I clearly, even today, recall the lightbulb going off in my head. I started making note of women's negotiations with a society that expected her to carry the weight of the world on her shoulders but make sure those shoulders were dainty and unobtrusive. (a little feminist moment for me this morning  I had a lot to learn, unlearn and relearn) I think Women Studies destroyed my marriage. I used to say 'therapy' ended my marriage but in all truth and honesty, women's studies took a sledge hammer to my unconscious assumptions, behaviors, and unquestioned beliefs.

I wonder if WoN would even exist had I not gone to women's studies and learned that women had just as much right to our earth's resources as men. If we needed to breath large, walk wide, talk loud, we could. And we should. Talking about our lives, as openly and loudly as we do on the Internet today, is part of my 'awakening'. I very much doubt that I'd have taken so much bandwidth as I have, were it not for my women's studies classes.

Goddess Bless those  moments.


CZ
 

[Imogene]

You know what's funny, CZ?  I think that women don't fully understand feminism until they approach menopause.  (I say that in all due respect to the women here who identify as feminists and are younger--of course you get it on many levels!)  Feminism is about the freedom to choose.  How many times do we hear that, and yet we don't really listen.  We have been trained into hearing "freedom to choose" as a pro-abortion euphemism, and we have been tricked into thinking that women's rights boil down to equal earning power.  But really it is about occupying space without guilt or shame. 

I'm struggling with this now, as a housewife who only learned to embrace that term now that I've been fired from the job.  The "h" word.  I chose to be a housewife.  It's a shame I could not be proud of that but was forever making excuses and in denial.  I missed out on the chance to be seen there, too.

[alatariel]

Wow.  This thread resonates with me a lot, b/c I am nothing but wallpaper in my world.  I occupy no space, leave no trace, give no impression.  I'm completely ordinary, unremarkable, and unmemorable.  I walk around in an invisibility cloak, always worried about being too: loud, weird, fat, big, obtrusive, talkative, tall, stupid, inept, awkward, unskilled, arrogant, obvious, ugly, unfashionable, needy, clingy, overbearing, wrong.

[MoreMyself]

Wow.  This thread resonates with me a lot, b/c I am nothing but wallpaper in my world.  I occupy no space, leave no trace, give no impression.  I'm completely ordinary, unremarkable, and unmemorable.  I walk around in an invisibility cloak, always worried about being too: loud, weird, fat, big, obtrusive, talkative, tall, stupid, inept, awkward, unskilled, arrogant, obvious, ugly, unfashionable, needy, clingy, overbearing, wrong.

These words really upset me.  Because honestly they are just your thoughts, your wrong perceptions.  I'm reading a book on the brain and rewiring it, and it's really making me think about how we get to this point, seeing ourselves as nothing.  The book is really hopeful about the research on the plasticity of the brain and the ability to rewire it so we are more hopeful and more resilient and yes, even happier.  We deserve that as much as anyone on this planet, no matter our appearance or personality. 

[Rosemary]

Doesnt matter what you look like Alatariel you are Intelligent and you have a damn good sense of  humour .,that counts for a lot in my book oh and a good mum too     

[JennyWren]

What`s the book MoreMyself? I could do with a major rewire too.

I read an interesting idea about how happy we often are to mow ourselves down....and tell ourselves horrible "truths" and harshly critical comments...and yet....we would NEVER DREAM of saying those things to our enemy...let alone a friend. So...why are we so comfortable smashing oursleves down. And we should stop.

[notakennedy]

Oh, Al, you are nothing if not at once both memorable and valuable, your contribution here at WoN is both those and I am sure you have many more most excellent features, if you could but look at yourself with love!  Might sound a bit over the top, but I get the feeling that plenty of we who find ourselves drawn to WoN have lost the ability to love or at least like ourselves .... after all we had it knocked out of us didn't we, as devalued and discarded as we were.

[MoreMyself]

The book I'm reading is Rewire Your Brain: Think Your Way to a Better Life  by John B. Arden

I downloaded it electronically from amazon.com onto my Kindle.  The reviews said it was one of the few books about the brain that were written in terms a layman could understand and I needed that.  The Hobbit has made mush of parts of my brain by trying to rewire it, I'm sure. 

It's thought provoking because if the brain actually can be rewired, if we can change the way we think, not only does this offer confirmation that a lot of narcissism might have been because of unfinished or bad wiring (or even wiring that is missing, as they have found in the case of people with autism who appear to have fewer of something called Mirror Neurons), it also means that for those of us who were brainwashed by the bullshit that our Ns poured over us for so long, for us there just might be hope to get that gunk out of our brains.

I hope so, I really do.  I'm sick of the self blame and the guilt and the grief.  If I can go to the gym and work on my body I am ready to commit to work on my brain with the same energy.

[Legs]

<< always worried about being too: loud, weird, fat, big, obtrusive, talkative, tall, stupid, inept, awkward, unskilled, arrogant, obvious, ugly, unfashionable, needy, clingy, overbearing, wrong>>


yeah, me too....who doesn't? Don't we all think those things about ourselves? I mean, not just us here on this forum, but most of the western world at least?????? (except for those kids who are reminded daily in school that they're out of this world SPECIAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)


I am not discounting what you say, Ala````````````I just think that sadly, most people think things like this.


Legs, who knows damn well she is too loud, too vulgar, too needy, too much of a wuss, too scared, too tall, too busty, too tall, not educated enough, not skilled in the daily grind with people,

I used to be a lot more things like too trusting and too optimistic and too helpful but I'm  not doing those things ever again. (Ala, I think you are funny and you seem so fair and not over-reactive and you care about people and animals and, and..................that HAIR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

[NewWings4MeNow]

Yes, yes, yes, exhausting, endless negotiations.  My diary-posts surely have shown this.

And they continue, even this week.

How have I changed?  I now call a dufus a dufus, directly, it's really fun and neither of the psych professionals involved in this latest muck ever seem to stifle me ... but instead talk about XNPH with me privately.  They get it.  They finally get it.

Imogene, one of the highlights of observing this is that they ARE bloodless.

NewWings4MeNow

[alatariel]

Thank you all for the nice words.    I wasn't fishing for compliments, I swear, although it reads like I was.   

MoreM, I'm going to download that book.

[Imogene]

Hello, NewWings!  Haven't seen you on the board much lately.  Thanks for chiming in to remind me that there were two components to this post.  One was how it felt to negotiate my life away.  The other was how it was to live like that.  I wasn't sure what kind of responses I would get, because my original post was kind of impressionistic, but the main part of my realization was that I'd bargained instead of trusting.  Don't get me wrong.  I did trust X.  I trusted him to be the person he said he was.  What I didn't trust is that he would love me as I was.  Whether I sensed his narcissism or simply brought childhood traumas to the marriage (no doubt a combination of both) I thought I could only get something for myself if I gave up something for myself.  The eerie thing about my marriage is that all the time I was absolutely right.  If I had stood up for myself and not negotiated myself away, the marriage would probably have ended sooner.  Yet all the time I assumed I was MERELY acting out of a childhood script and was therefore frightfully wrong.

Does this make sense to anyone?

If I had known about his narcissism, the way I know about my mother's, I would have at least made bargains in a bloodless manner.  But all that time I was making sacrifices out of a fear of rejection, a desire to please, a sense of abject confusion.  I was ashamed of myself so often during this marriage for "not working."  And yet I did not have to work outside the home, and until the d&d X never expressed any anger at me for not working, though he would occasionally say in a disinterested way, when prodded by my ruminations, that I should go back to school for writing or try to find a job.  I look back now and realize I was scared to occupy my life independently (that is, fully claim my role as housewife, volunteer, writer) because it would upset some balance.  The balance was that I should be nothing, because only he could be something.

It's funny.  The man I lived with before I met X is one of the smartest people I'll ever meet.  And he is extremely self-absorbed--not a pathological narcissist, but self-absorbed to a degree so strong that I have to yell at him on the phone, "This conversation is about me!"  He knows this about himself.  He used to point at himself and say, "Something," then point at me and say "Nothing."  That probably sounds awful to many on this board, but truly the joke was on him, not me.  It reflected his awareness of his narcissism and is what prevented him from actually treating me like nothing.

X, on the other hand, has no conscious awareness that he was content with my bargaining myself away.  He was only unhappy to wind up with a wife who no longer felt like lavishing sexual attention on him, dressing up in nice clothes, making dinner for his colleagues, being witty and just controversial enough to entertain.  I was all used up, from his perspective, and when I started making demands, it was more than he could tolerate. 

This is truly sad.  How I wish I knew then what I know now.

[pearlsb4swine]

This thread is certainly interesting. 

Definitely, the impressionistic painting of your Costco experience resonated with me.  The urge to make myself smaller and less needy and thereby less vulnerable was there even before the environmental awareness, but those pieces fit together so nicely.  I can remember being so, so frustrated because even as I strove to reduce my own footprint, my exnh strove to increase his.  He used to insist on driving with the windows open in the car and the AC on full blast.  In the house, we had the thermostat wars.   It wasn't just about being a responsible citizen of the earth.  It was about responsibility, period.  There was no small economy he was willing to embrace.   I told myself that he was present oriented and I was future oriented.  I searched and searched for a way to view my relationship as anything but what it was--a parasitic one.  I had this image of us and of life as a boat race, with married couples lined up, all in two person rowboats.  And my xnh refused to row, and so I had to row twice as hard, always, to make up for him, and so I was always behind, always apologetic, always inferior, and did not let anyone get too close, because I did not want anyone to see that I was the only one rowing.

The less you consume, the less you need.  The less you need, the less vulnerable you are.  The less vulnerable you are, the less you get hurt. 

The less you consume, the less conspicuous you are.  The less you are like all the words on alaterial's list, all of which I relate to:  big, loud, needy, talkative, overbearing.  Fishing for compliments!   How many times my mother would tell me not to fish for compliments.  I felt like this giant, walking, oozing, crusty need.  This giant ball of slime saying love me, love me, please, someone, love me.

hmmmn.......maybe you hit a nerve there, Imogene!   

Pearls

[Chime]

The less you consume, the less you need.  The less you need, the less vulnerable you are.  The less vulnerable you are, the less you get hurt. 
The less you consume, the less conspicuous you are...
Pearls

Brava, Pearls! 

Chime

[JennyWren]

In BigBird`s house....his MASSIVE entitlement spread like an all engulfing fog throughout the place. He was entitled...he WOULD be put first. And as he was forever dissatisfied with my efforts....I gave a little more....and a little more....until EVERYTHING was BigBird. And nothing was me.

It was not something that could be fought. It was not a choice I made. If I defied the BigBird...I paid. Ever-so-subtley. Like training an animal.

Slowly but surely he encroached on me. And then....when he had utterly paralysed all autonomy...he ran off with his Moon-struck lovely mad gf.

[Chime]

Jenny - did you resonate with my dog training comment
or did we simulpost?
I love synchronicity
 

Chime

[JennyWren]

I`ve been having a mighty battle posting stuff this evening...my laptop is infected with a Gremlin that causes it to seize up and laugh at me....and then lose stuff...and find it again. I probably should do a restart.

Yes.....I did post at same time as you I think. And Yes...the dog-training comparison resonates hugely. Woof woof! 

[MoreMyself]

This is truly sad.  How I wish I knew then what I know now.

But isn't it wonderful that we know now what we know now?  That we got to the state of knowing?  We could still be trapped in the loop.  My post-Hobbit years have been wonderful, in spite of advancing age and diminishing opportunities (such as jobs, other partners).

It's also resonating with me about the N and their sense of entitlement, which makes them oblivious to participating in the communal drive to do what we can to reduce our footprint.  We had a drought here than went on for years.  Our dams were below 10%.  We had reached crisis point and had it not been for the community cooperation in obeying the rules (no watering outside, installing rainwater tanks, taking brief showers, washing clothes less), we would have run out of water.  I installed little timers in the showers so that we could set them at 3 minutes and turn off the water after that.  The Hobbit wouldn't use them.  He insisted on his usual 20 minute hot shower every morning.  He'd look at me blankly when I'd try to explain that if everyone did that, we'd be turning the taps on and getting dust out of them.  Entitlement.  It was for the paeons, the plebians, the others who were beneath him to worry about such things.  He needed his 20 minute shower and that was that.

He also needed a car so big we could have moved his plasma TV into it and used it as a theatre room.  Go figure.  When the rest of the world was downsizing the Hobbit was upsizing.

I hated that, really hated it.  I felt it was teaching our sons the wrong things. 

I get the same feeling when I go shopping at a warehouse outlet.  We don't have Costco here (yet) but we do have those super-hardware-warehouses.  I start to feel quite claustrophic after a while even though they are enormous.  So much STUFF.  Who needs it, who buys it, where does it end up?  Even in the garden centre, so many different bug sprays and weed sprays.  Why are we so obsessed with keeping our gardens cleaner than a deodorised bathroom?  Bugs are supposed to be in our gardens. 

I'm really hoping that the financial crisis will wake people up to the fact that we've been living in a fog of materialism and hasn't made us healthier, happier or improved our lives overall.  Yes, it's great to have a big TV, a computer, a laptop, an iPhone.... BUT... I'm old enough to remember not having any of them and life wasn't bad, not bad at all.  In fact we had time to talk to our neighbours, to look at other people when we passed and even say hello. Now nobody seems to make eye contact because they are either on their mobiles or have earphones.

Maybe I'm just getting old and cranky. 

[alatariel]

I'm old and cranky too, then, b/c I also remember life before all that.  I was even an adult before all that was ubiquitous.  Back when phones in cars were only for rich ppl, and not everyone had a computer, or even a cordless landline phone.  Back when ppl didn't expect everyone to be available 24/7/365 and ppl didn't get bent out of shape if they called and couldn't get hold of you.  They'd leave a message or call back later.  Back when half the ppl weren't expected to do twice the work.  There was a time when ppl went to lunch with friends and spoke to the ppl at the table with them, instead of sitting there wrapped up in their individual iPhones.  Oh, yeah, that was also back when you had some reasonable expectation of privacy, too...

But it was also before the internet, when ppl like us wouldn't have found one another.  We'd have stumbled along in our dark little Nfogs, some of us with no idea what was going on.