Anyone else dealing with an N mother?

[alatariel]

My N golden child sister keeps her house free of knickknacks though she is well off, it looks austere, to keep the clean control

when were you in troll's house?  She's almost phobic about knickknacks.  She refuses to hang anything on her walls, too.  And she doesn't keep things, she's constantly selling stuff at her annual garage sale, or donating it to thrift stores, and then she acquires more stuff at garage sales and thrift stores.  It's like she has to constantly renew her stuff in pursuit of something, anything, that might make her happy.

[HealingDaughter]

NoMom,

Just wanted to chime in.  I'm so sorry for what you have had to deal with. It sounds like you are taking the right steps though. I concur with what others have said about marrying. Marry because you want to... not because of pressure.

I am also the child of an engulfing N mother. I am glad to say that marrying my husband was the first thing I ever did for myself. (My mother did not like him because he spoke the truth and saw right through her BS.) Nonetheless, she took over my wedding and actually told my husband that the wedding was for her (and me). Not for him! I put it like that because I literally was an afterthought in that conversation... and then she completely seized control of the wedding. We wanted a small wedding of about 50 people. She invited 300. She took over the flowers, tried to tell us we couldn't do our own vows or change up the ceremony. And then the day of the wedding she was 'too stressed' to do anything. So me and my bridesmaids ended up decorating the reception hall.

I was kind of where your sister is as far as my relationship with my mother went. I was the oldest child and only girl. I didn't want to be there in that position, but I went along with it anyway. I was miserable for it. I had such a huge fear of abandonment that I even allowed it to continue after I got married. I finally got fed up with the insults against my husband, her clingy nature, and the constant guilt trips that left me with an immense amount of stress and depression. It just wasn't worth it any more, so once she and my stepfather exuded supreme levels of craziness in a situation, I saw it as my time to leave. I wrote them a boundaries letter, asking them to only respond to me by letter through the mail, they have done everything but what I asked. I've gotten nasty e-mails, text messages, and phone calls... but it's totally worth it. To not have them in my life trying to dictate every decision I make... it is glorious. I haven't been without scars though and it's become abundantly clear that I have PTSD as a result of the way I was treated as a child with severe emotional neglect. It's possible that could be what is causing your PTSD? Not 9/11?

[Liftedup]

when were you in troll's house?  She's almost phobic about knickknacks.  She refuses to hang anything on her walls, too.  And she doesn't keep things, she's constantly selling stuff at her annual garage sale, or donating it to thrift stores, and then she acquires more stuff at garage sales and thrift stores.  It's like she has to constantly renew her stuff in pursuit of something, anything, that might make her happy.

Sounds like yours has some turn over.

My N mother is an obssesive collector, the N golden child sister, has only one picture hanging up in her 2500 square foot house, or did when I was there, over the fireplace. Strangest thing...

[nomom4me]

NoMom,


I was kind of where your sister is as far as my relationship with my mother went. I was the oldest child and only girl. I didn't want to be there in that position, but I went along with it anyway. I was miserable for it. I had such a huge fear of abandonment that I even allowed it to continue after I got married. I finally got fed up with the insults against my husband, her clingy nature, and the constant guilt trips that left me with an immense amount of stress and depression. It just wasn't worth it any more, so once she and my stepfather exuded supreme levels of craziness in a situation, I saw it as my time to leave. I wrote them a boundaries letter, asking them to only respond to me by letter through the mail, they have done everything but what I asked. I've gotten nasty e-mails, text messages, and phone calls... but it's totally worth it. To not have them in my life trying to dictate every decision I make... it is glorious. I haven't been without scars though and it's become abundantly clear that I have PTSD as a result of the way I was treated as a child with severe emotional neglect. It's possible that could be what is causing your PTSD? Not 9/11?

[

Hi Healing, thanks for chiming in - I have read some of your posts and there are many parallels.  I read your post about your mom texting, it scared me.  If that ever happens I am going to pretend I don't get texts on my phone.  They do this stuff to get a rise out of us, my boyfriend always says "she is pushing your buttons" and it's so hard to understand why a mother would want to do that.  I understand that everyone wants to be heard, and I didn't take her voice away - she sent me a novel's worth of emails and I had to use that time for work.  Not everyone is a retiree with nothing but personal time on the computer, it's a work tool for me and migraines already limit how much time I can spend on the computer. 

I have a ton of self doubt care of mom, my bottom teeth moved a bit when my wisdom teeth came in impacted a few years ago and my mom asked me if I still wear my retainers, 20 years after my braces came off.  I don't think there is one picture of me smiling in the past few years.  A friend put it this way, parents are mirrors - our moms are the crazy fun-house ones.  I don't know whats PTSD and what is just a result of poor parenting at this point. There has been so much instability in my life, I am just figuring out what "safe" means.

I pity my sister for the position my mother put her in, but I blame her for setting this precedent that the girls are docile and always busy doing some chore or errand for Nmom.  My mom wants me to drive so I can do the stuff my sister is too busy to do.  My sister has gotten a little stronger with parenthood but my mom keeps her hooked by taking care of her son, now my mom is paying for pre-school that is not at all convenient for my sister.  My sister will give in, no one ever says "no" to my mom.  Ever.  As a result I look like the black sheep for putting my health first.  I told her I could not spend a day swimming and horseback riding because I was starting to feel a migraine coming on - my mom had migraines, she made it into a full blown fight (this was a few months ago when we were all together for my grandmas funeral).  Because I was too sick to be in a car for hours with her, then spend hours in the sun she did not bring any dinner home for me.  It's at the point where her family notices that she has a problem with me, her brothers notice it - anyone outside the situation see it but my direct family is so used to her chaos and manipulation that it just feels like home.

The boys don't get it so bad, she never tells the boys to go find their retainers or call their godparents.  I read that with Nmoms the daughters are either angels or rebels, guess what I am.  I'm the tainted rebel she gave up on, but if I wanted to get married in HER church I could be born again as a suburban scrapbooker.  My mom and sister make scrapbooks of all their trips, and my travels have been a total waste because I put my pictures online instead of wasting paper.  My sister was 8 months pregnant for a family wedding and ran around barefoot getting shots for her scrapbook, she stepped in front of the hired photographer a few times - classy ladies in my family.

My mom and sister left me out of the gift exchange for chrismas this year and my mom said, " I am doing what you said, I am not making decisions for you and respecting your boundaries."  She did make a decision for me, the wrong one as usual and it's just like them to create drama out of something simple - the gift exchange has never been an issue before, christmas is one holiday that usually runs OK because there is usually enough happening to keep everyone busy without having to create drama.

I have explained the difference between having a problem and creating drama to my sister. She understands, but she is so co-dependant with my mother - witholding and creating drama are the best tools she has.  I wanna be just like the Mary J Blige song, no more pain... no more paaaaain, no more drama in my life.

Are your parents still pushing?  Are you still angry?  I want to say to my mother, "well, I am just doing what you said, you told your family all you know about me is where my boyfriend works, so we assumed you have all the information you need"

[nomom4me]

My home growing up was so clean, we had to clean for hours and hours, us kids, which took away from the social life and even studies. Yes my N mother put housework above school work even. I think it is about control. I am not dirty, I will bleach down the kitchen, though money is affecting cleaning the rug and a few other things that irritate me and have the nest building stuff too with the books and more. My childhood was wasted on obsessive cleaning. I sometimes wonder if that is why I am so bad at it, and put it aside for hobbies. We had to vaccumn EVERY SINGLE DAY TOO and even try and put vaccumn marks in the rug that lined up.

Hi Lifted,

I just bought my fist vacuum 6 months ago because the sound of them makes my hair stand on end.  When I was about 12 and there were no more babies or little kids in the house my mom suddenly wanted the common areas clean - after we all grew up in chaos.  I'm still surprised when I see her bed made, growing up she would pile it with books... I think I finally got organized after someone pointed out that my bed full of books and shoes.  I am only "clean" in relation to how messy I used to be.

My Saturday chore was vacuuming the family room including doing the edges with a huge, loud shopvac using the "crevice tool" (the angled hose tool) to get into the corners.  She'd inspect and insist I hadn't used the "crevice tool" and she would scream about it over the vacuum, to this day I don't use that attachment.  I got a nice quiet vacuum but I still don't like that damn tool, it just sits in the closet.  I'll just use the hose with no attachment to do the kitchen corners, a little dust in the common area doesn't bother me. 

She'll get cleaning help now but she insists on cleaning along with someone she pays minimum wage.  Gardeners too, it's a difficult property to maintain and I wish she would just sell it. My youngest brother is always maintaining something in the house and it keeps him tied to her.  It's just her in a giant house now, even in this economy she could live very well if she downsized to a condo or townhouse.

[HealingDaughter]

They are still pushing. My mother indirectly sent me a notification through the mail that she'd made 'charitable donations' in me and my son's names- with her own personal messages inside each notification. The woman does everything she can to bait me for a response. But I have stayed strong and not responded. It's very hard at times because I just want to tell her off, but I know the fallout would be far worse. You cannot win with an N... ever. Only by enforcing no contact can you truly be free of their drama- and drive them nuts at the same time... ha.

Things have escalated with her and my stepfather's behavior the more I've refused and cut off contact with them (changed e-mail, phone numbers, etc.) They've gone now to spreading crazy lies to anyone who will listen that my husband is abusing me and won't let me speak to them. (Yet my mother admitted to someone that she knows that isn't true.) It's all a ploy to get pity because they have very little supply any more. I try hard to not let it get under my skin. Some days are wonderful and I don't think about them at all and everything is great. It's the first time I feel like I can focus on my family and my life without a constant pit in my stomach wondering if I'm going to hear from them and what new thing my mother has come up with to guilt me over. And then there are days like today. I have friends with equally messed up parents and we were on a girls' night out last night... we loosened up after a couple of drinks and started comparing notes on our crazy mothers. Someone's experience completely triggered me, and all last night and today I have been a guilted, second-guessing, emotional mess... all of it hearkening back to things my mother had said on a repeated basis about me. I finally realized this afternoon I was having a PTSD episode. I've been completely NC for over 4 months now.

I am sorry your sister is still stuck and participating in all of the craziness. It is so hard to come to terms with and I applaud you for being independent and stepping out. Perhaps one day she will get tired of it and finally do something for her own happiness. I used to think that I should never consider my own well-being, because my parents' happiness was more important so I wouldn't be abandoned. The truth is, I was emotionally abandoned by my parents the whole time. They didn't ever really give a flip about their children's emotional health and it caused many scars. My younger brother is now engulfed by them after becoming drug and alcohol addicted and years of them telling him he was incapable of making it on his own. He's 22 years old, working for my Nstepdad, in an apartment they pay for, eating groceries they pay for, and truly believes the only way he can survive is with their help. I spent most of my teens and early twenties a miserable wreck behind closed doors. I had an eating disorder and suicidal tendencies and was a cutter for some time. They never had a clue. I believe, in essence, that is what all N's do to their children, whether they are engulfing or ignoring... they emotionally abandon their children.

[HealingDaughter]

My Saturday chore was vacuuming the family room including doing the edges with a huge, loud shopvac using the "crevice tool" (the angled hose tool) to get into the corners.  She'd inspect and insist I hadn't used the "crevice tool" and she would scream about it over the vacuum, to this day I don't use that attachment. 

Gosh do I understand this! I just told my husband today that it wasn't actually the chores that I was so traumatized by, it was the screaming that I didn't do it or do it right. My mother used to scream so much she would lose her voice. She would just go into rages over the smallest chore I got wrong, and as a result I hated cleaning certain things for years... I still abhor laundry to this day because of some of the screaming sessions I remember.

It boggles my mind to even think about that as a parent to my own son now. I can't imagine doing that to him. I think it is so important to remember to praise children as they are learning how to do things. I never got that. I think that is one reason why I crave acceptance so much now.

[nomom4me]

Gosh do I understand this! I just told my husband today that it wasn't actually the chores that I was so traumatized by, it was the screaming that I didn't do it or do it right. My mother used to scream so much she would lose her voice. She would just go into rages over the smallest chore I got wrong, and as a result I hated cleaning certain things for years... I still abhor laundry to this day because of some of the screaming sessions I remember.

It boggles my mind to even think about that as a parent to my own son now. I can't imagine doing that to him. I think it is so important to remember to praise children as they are learning how to do things. I never got that. I think that is one reason why I crave acceptance so much now.

Yeah, I think part of not even wanting to drive comes from being screamed at in the car.  She would go red in the face, people would stare - I am surprised she never got pulled over, but honestly my moms house was so crazy that the police knew my family and didn't want to start with my mother.   If I was my mother I'd move, that house is so hard to maintain and so full of ugly memories.

Once I was picked up for being out after curfew with friends in high school and the police knew my last name and dropped me at my friends house.  I think I got married young partially because I just wanted a new name.

I don't have kids but I was a nanny for awhile.  I used to watch my nephew when he was small and always told him "I'm so proud of you". For any little thing, learning a song or putting his shoes on. My sister would just stare, we didn't grow up with positive re-enforcement.

My father always gets credit for being the family nutjob, he was violent and bi-polar but it takes two to bring six kids into that environment. My mom has very low self esteem, they fought allot and she did throw him out for periods of time but she'll casually mention things that are so crazy.  My Dad smoked a pipe, I remember the little piles of pipe tobacco and how it smelled.  My mom told me and my sister that he liked to smoke in bed and that we would bring him his pipe, in bed - so that he would "wake up".

I have dated some real losers, but smoking in bed? Did we bring him matches too?  All those little bits of tobacco, in the bed - thats crazy. She and my sister both have no boundaries, the let themselves be walked all over then suddenly snap. 

[HealingDaughter]

Eeek. Sounds like your Dad was quite a tool. I can't imagine how much it would suck to live in a family that the cops took pity on you for!!! I am glad you had the fortitude to get out of their house ASAP. I wish I would have. I'm kind of happy that my crazy Nparents were so completely uptight about everything that they wouldn't be caught dead smoking. Outward appearance means everything to them, but my Nstepdad has become an increasingly heavier drinker over the past few years, but never really a drunk. He has one drink a day supposedly. My mom has only gotten drunk when she's really mad. In one of her rampages a couple of years ago she got drunk on a six pack and took a baseball bat to my Nstepdad's alarm clock and their telephone/recorder. The alarm clock because it made too much noise and the telephone because she was tired of the handset not holding charge. I laughed when I found out. That is just so 'her' to throw blame on inanimate objects for pissing her off.

[daisyk9292]

Welcome nomom4me.

 

50 minutes a week can't fix a lifetime of abuse.

This is true, that alone can't fix it. You will need to work through this a lot on your own, and it will take as long as it's gonna take. Those involved with you such as your current bf, need to understand clearly what you are dealing with and support you. There is no way around this, the only way is through it. I'm still grieving the loss of the mom I never had, never will have. But it does get better. If others on the thread suggested it I apologize for repeating, but the book "Will I Ever Be Good Enough" by Karyl McBride was a tremendous help to me.

I'm the youngest of 4 and have 3 older brothers ( the princes) that my mother doted on and I was competition. I was kept at a distance, emotionally neglected, and it was a big no no for me to shine in anyway.  I didn't realize this until fairly recently. But seriously, the relationship my mom has with my brothers has an incestuous kind of vibe.

As far as deciding to marry, let me caution you, please don't succumb to the feeling of societal pressures to marry or have children.

I married for similar reasons, and honestly it hasn't turned out so great. That's another story on it's own - yet tied to my relationship with my mother and FOO. I wish I had the awareness then that I do now. Awareness of narcissists but more importantly awareness of myself, what made me tick, my insecurities,  what are my buttons that others push easily and why, what ways do I use to escape facing reality etc. I did use marriage to survive. To appear "normal" and okay like everyone else. To have ANYONE other than a family member to rely on.  That isn't a reason to get married.

I did get a beautiful little girl so I can't say I completely regret it. My H is a good man too, but I have to be honest and say at this point, I doubt I would choose him again. We've been separated for 4 years now, and I'm still stuck on deciding what to do, and we haven't discussed it in months. I have no clue what he's even thinking. For me, I'm terrified of making another mistake in life. I'm afraid to stay in the marriage, and afraid to end it. I hate feeling stuck!

As far as the cleaning thing, I had to laugh, because my Nmother is a cleaning freak. Always has been, and uses it to feel superior to others. Especially the women my brothers married. Of course they were more female competition for her, so that was her ammo. They didn't do their "job" as well as she did.

I did for a while, she would always tell me what a great housekeeper I was and how I got that from "her". Of course!

I was the "golden child" for a time, after all my brothers married. My parents divorced, I was the only one left in the house, and mom gripped onto me, and did her best to get control over me and make sure I'd never abandon her. There's a lot behind that whole story, but it didn't work, and slowly but surely I've broken free.

Now i just have to continue to process the pain and damage that's been done. It's a long, hard journey, but I try to keep in mind that I will make it through to the other side, and things will get better.

Daisy

[Legs]

<<50 minutes a week can't fix a lifetime of abuse.>>

Ooooooooh, time to read this article maybe?


http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2011/12/06/5-things-therapy-wont-cure/


It really made me see that "therapy" had helped as much as I was willing to let it help and I had to make my own way in this world.....no one else can live my life for me. There is no one "correct" response to anything. You gotta do what you gotta do. What's sauce for the goose is not always sauce for the gander. What makes one person happy doesn't make another person happy. What's "right" for some people is wrong for me.


I think the thing I hated most about therapy was my therapist's belief that since I was smart, I could make myself be happy again and she could never understand the part about how I don't *want* to be happy again.



Legs

[nomom4me]

I guess I left out some important history bits- because people where dropping like flies in my childhood I was in therapy from about 12-17.   I was in both individual and couples therapy for most of my first marriage.  That relationship was not built to last, and I know no amount of therapy could have "fixed" that.  I had 15 years of not letting myself be in a good relationship, or a serious one either because of work or because I didn't think I deserved it.

My boyfriend and I are building a life and we talked about commitment before we moved in together.  My grandma's funeral happened right after we got our place and it was the first time I stayed in the same house as my mom in years, I have been really angry since.  I can't deny it now that other people are noticing that she still punishes me.  My emotions have been a big problem as they can trigger a migraine and that can mean I'm suck in bed.  I got worse after my grandmother funeral and was really weird on the 10 year of 9/11.

My mother and I have had limited contact since I turned 18.   I started filtering her email to another account 2 years ago and stopped checking that account about a year ago.  I feel like having her messages returned to her would have been too mean so I weaned her off.  Prior to that I have changed emails without telling her. She didn't stop emailing (and only called to tell me to check my email) until I threatened to send her mails out to family members (this was after she circulated an email I wrote to my sister, where I called my mother "pushy").   She always has my number but thank god for caller I.D.

Even as a teenager I looked for any excuse to be out of the house.  I have lived far away for most of my adult live and only see my family for christmas, weddings and funerals.  Last year was the first that I did not go home for christmas.  I have very little in common with my mother and sister, I don't like crowds - they love disneyland. I've always thought we are very different but I didn't think my mom was at the root of my issues. 

We did family therapy on and off, my mom never stuck with a therapist and at this point does not think therapy is helpful.  She has all the terminology but really resents it when people set boundaries with her.  I'm glad she left me in therapy through my teens, I was working with a published author on death and dying and it really helped me feel less isolated.

I tried to get into therapy in NYC after 9/11 but it was pretty hard to get good help at that point.  My insurance only covered a psyc, given my family history I was always worried that I was in the BP spectrum like my dad.  I'm not BP, and this is the first time I am pointing a finger and not assuming the problem is me. 

I'm trying a more cognitive style, where I always did client centered before.  I feel like client centered could go on forever with some therapists but I am talking to the EMDR therapist about a timeline.  There is no one timeline that works for everyone but I hope I am not looking at years, my life has been on hold with my health for years and I just want to get back to normal activities.

[nomom4me]

Update - I used the crevice tool, turns out it is pretty useful - I vacuumed crumbs off my table before my guest came over so I'm not exactly clean, but I don't like things to be gritty.

Cleaning does continue to be a source of stress, I don't enjoy it, I don't find it relaxing to have a face full of dust and be bent over cleaning kitchen floor again. 12 hours later.  I've tried zoning, I've explained that most cooks clean while they cook, but he is not most cooks.  I don't want to be chasing after him with a cloth but I'll have a sticky mess the next day if I don't.  I don't want to live alone in an immaculate apartment, but I feel like Sisyphus rolling the same crumbs up a hill every night just find them on my kitchen floor again in the morning. 

He's a guy, his last place looked like a squat - I knew this when I met him but I did not agree to be the scullery maid.  I had plans for cooking some elaborate Greek food and had the kitchen all prepped for it, after cleaning up after his breakfast I'm not in the mood to spend any more time in the kitchen.  I don't want to become my mother with constant judgement, but cleaning is part of cooking.

[Liftedup]

Hi Lifted,

I just bought my fist vacuum 6 months ago because the sound of them makes my hair stand on end.  When I was about 12 and there were no more babies or little kids in the house my mom suddenly wanted the common areas clean - after we all grew up in chaos.  I'm still surprised when I see her bed made, growing up she would pile it with books... I think I finally got organized after someone pointed out that my bed full of books and shoes.  I am only "clean" in relation to how messy I used to be.

My Saturday chore was vacuuming the family room including doing the edges with a huge, loud shopvac using the "crevice tool" (the angled hose tool) to get into the corners.  She'd inspect and insist I hadn't used the "crevice tool" and she would scream about it over the vacuum, to this day I don't use that attachment.  I got a nice quiet vacuum but I still don't like that damn tool, it just sits in the closet.  I'll just use the hose with no attachment to do the kitchen corners, a little dust in the common area doesn't bother me. 

She'll get cleaning help now but she insists on cleaning along with someone she pays minimum wage.  Gardeners too, it's a difficult property to maintain and I wish she would just sell it. My youngest brother is always maintaining something in the house and it keeps him tied to her.  It's just her in a giant house now, even in this economy she could live very well if she downsized to a condo or townhouse.

Oh man that stinks, yeah I saw the weirdo stuff, I even got yelled at for not having the vaccumn stripes on the carpet go straight enough, I kid you not. Sorry that happened to you. Yeah your poor brother....

[nomom4me]

thanks Lifted, my brother is working now so he is not financially tied to my mom but he is still under her influence, he has dated some real crazies - I hope he gets away from the drama at some point, it's hard when it is all he has ever know. and the family rationalizes my moms behavior because she has had so much loss, the single mother of 6, she lost a son.  I do not want to be around her mourning her mother, she was in some stage of mourning during my entire adolescence and never sticks with any therapist, she has been against therapy ever since her boyfriends therapist pointed out that my mother might not be the best influence in his life. 


I give up, when I was making an effort to see her it was never enough.  She told my extended family that she knows nothing about my life, so I stopped telling her anything.  All I tell her is that I am sick, she knows how painful migraines are - she can connect the dots.   

My boyfriend is having a big year at work, he just bought a new car that he has wanted for years, we got a great deal on a condo with a view, renting it from the owner.  Some people assume my life is great because my home is great, it looks good because I spend all my time here and I have a dust allergy.  I am not a flashy person and this is not even my stuff!   I am not asking for sympathy but I cannot do everything a healthy person can, we do not have friends over often and my mother never saw most of the apartments I lived in.

 She suddenly wants to be in my life now that I have a boyfriend  who has money but she does not want to hear about my health problems - she ignored my health issues my entire childhood, by my teens I was ignoring  Now that I have some distance I see how confused I get after talikng to her, I am so tired of the waste of time and emotion.