The N and illness

[SparklePony]

Hi all

Well I truly don't mean to come on here only when I'm having a problem. I get quite busy with work, and it just so happens that its so effing cold this weekend that I don't plan on leaving my flat (right JennyWren?? I can't function in this cold!), so I've got a bit of spare time.

Basically -

My N Dad had open heart surgery a few months ago. He is not recovering well.

Surgery on a healthy body would still be risky, but this is a man who has damaged his body with booze, food, and cocktail of meds for 30 years. You can imagine the state his body is in.

Of course, its not just his health right now. There has never been a man so sorry for himself than my Dad right now. He is a victim, and is to be pitied and babied. He whines about everything. He naturally has no perspective on things. He literally thought he would recover from this surgery after 1 week. He's not willing himself to get better, because as much as I know he wants to get better to go golfing, he also likes having the attention on himself. He's been to the ER about 5 times in the past few months, and my Mom has had to call 911 because he's fallen into the bathtub, and my mom isn't strong enough to help him up. He's back in the hospital right now.

My Mom has turned into SUPER caretaker of the universe, and has been amazing. I can't say I would ever do the same for him, but heck, she married him. She's had to take care of him non-stop - taking him to several weekly doctor appointment, spending time in the hospital, assisting him showering and in the bathroom, and has struggles to even leave him alone when she goes out grocery shopping, as these are usually the times he falls or something like that. At the same time, she visits her elderly mother twice a week and has to take her out grocery shopping.

I've had an overwhelming amount of guilt for living so far away during this time. I'm not even in the same country. I was prepared to go out and spend a couple weeks for HER (I have no guilt and do not feel sorry for him - I would only go out there to help her and give her some company), but she said no.

I'm also weirded out at the possibility that he might not make it to next year. I've dealt with this before. 5 years ago (the day I was accepted into my MA program), my Dad went into the hospital for severe cirrhosis of the liver, and we didn't think he was going to make it at the time.

I don't know how to feel about potentially losing him. I suppose that's why I'm coming here. What do you guys think?

Part of me is thrilled. I know that sounds beyond grim, but it is the honest truth. And then I feel guilty for feeling that. Because I live in Europe now, and because him and I don't have much to do with each other, he's no longer such a part of my life. In fact, I've created several coping mechanisms for the times I have to see him, and they tend to work.

I feel like if he passes, the reason for me to live so far away will cease to exist. My mother and I will then be able to have the good relationship we were meant to have. Things are going well for me here, I've got a good job, a boyfriend, I feel like I was meant to live here, and I don't want to go back to America. So then I'll feel guilty for living so far away from my mom 

I felt like I was more prepared for this 5 years ago when we thought he was gone. Now I've moved to another country, have formed a life for myself, and yet I'll worry about my Mom. I feel like him passing will open up a whole new world of emotions/realizations for her - and that I should be with her.

*sigh* - I've gone into rambling mode now, but sh*t like this does tend to make you think.

It also makes me glad that I've never been in a relationship with an N myself. If you think they're bad when they're young-ish - just wait until they're old and cant take care of themselves.

I've always had a dreadful fear that he would live until he was 85, and that I would have to take care of him - the miserable lump of man that he is.


-SP

[Rosemary]

try not to worry too much sparkle ,im sure your mum is used to all his moaning and groaning ways  .He will prolly pull through and you will worry for nothing  .Wait and see then worry bout your mum .
she does have a lot on her plate but she did say no to your offer ,so she must be coping with it .
This doesnt mean you have to go back and live in america ,your mum  wont expect you to uproot from  your work and boyfriend   ,i wouldnt my kids if it was me ,a visit perhaps if the worst happens thats all .

[HealingDaughter]

Sparkle,

Do not let guilt be why you make a decision to return home. You have a life where you are now. You made that life and you deserve it! You deserve to be happy where you are. Don't move back just to resume a relationship with your mom either. I'm going through something like that on a much smaller scale right now. I cut off contact with my Nmother and Nstepfather who refused to let me have a relationship with my father. After many years, I've finally resumed a solid relationship with my father, but I'm fighting the inclination to change my plans for the future to have a close relationship with him. I have a husband and son though, so I have them as my first consideration anyway, but my father is currently taking care of my terminally ill stepmother and my 7 year old step-sister. My inclination is to drop everything and help him, but I know that isn't healthy for me, even if he isn't an N. That would be doing things out of the wrong motivation, the wrong priorities. Anyway, I know it's not an easy decision to make. Hang in there, check your motivations, make sure you are considering your true feelings.

[Imogene]

Hey, SparklePony.

It is always nice to hear from you, no matter what the reason.  Sorry to hear about your dad.  I have tons to say on this subject, scattered in many directions.  I went NC with my narcissistic brother about a year after his MS diagnosis.  He and his partner still blame me for abandoning him, whereas my perspective is I held on as long as I could.  His traits escalated considerably with the stress of being ill, and he was really treating me badly.  So I have a vague idea of what you are experiencing.  Your father is probably going to die sooner than later, and understandably you have mixed and confused feelings about that.  I will say that my animosity toward my mother has lessened as I've aged (my best friend feels the same way about her narcissistic father, who sounds very much like your old man), so I'm sorry that you may not get to experience a natural transition as he slowly declines and comes to grips with his dependence.  But of course, not all narcissists accept the loss of control, and who knows how it will be with your dad.

This is trite advice, but what can you do other than give yourself permission to feel things that seem inappropriate under the circumstances?  I love my brother very much, but there was a point when I Googled MS to find out how long he was statistically supposed to live. . . because I was looking forward to his death.  They are so unintentionally skilled at creating self-conflict in the people closest to them, that you are likely to be worn down just from feeling contradictory things or from not being able to know WHAT you are feeling.

And yes, you may be in store for processing some unpleasant or different feelings about your mother, too.  If he does die soon, would she be amenable to moving to the UK?  Or would you, on the other hand, like to come back to the States? 

[JennyWren]

s-s-s-s-s-oooo c-c-c-c-cold!  minus 10 degrees C and dropping...I`ve had to bring the girls pet bunny-wabbits inside before they turn into some new Captain Birdseye product.... Frozen Rabbit Fillets.

SparklePony...sorry for the yucky situation you describe. Feeling guilty. Where there`s an N there is usually a whole bunch of guilt smirking somewhere nearby.

No idea what the prognosis for ridiculous Ndads who abuse their bodies and then have heart surgery is...but what I do know is...if I were in your mum`s place...I would want to do all the running round after Mr "Save me Save me I`m so needy" so that you didn`t have to. I would be pleased as anything to hear what a good life you`ve made yourself...and since your Mum said not to go help out...I imagine she is thinking along similar lines.

If and when Mr Heart Surgery finally waves goodbye to the world....your relationship with your mother will undoubtedly blossom WHEREVER you are. And just imagine...when you DO visit her...you wouldn`t have to elaborately plan in your head how to deal with the old fool.

Sorry you have this upheaval running round your head. AND that you`re stuck in freezing to death in this vile weather. I hope other stuff is going alright.

[rossignolchante]

something I read once...

guilt vs. shame

shame is feeling badly because you have betrayed your own morals vs. guilt is feeling badly because you didn't live up to the expectations of others

and I agree with the other poster who said that the most helpful thing would be giving yourself permission to feel whatever it is that you feel. 

[MoreMyself]

I wanted to start by saying that you need to always remember his situation is not your fault and not your responsibility.  He chose the path he is on.  If he dies it would be natural to feel grief, sadness or relief or a combination, but not guilt and responsibility.

Secondly I am the mother of two adult sons.  The last thing I would ever want is for them to feel they had to put their lives on hold or change the course of their lives to accommodate me.  I have recently seen two very different examples of how this parental/child enmeshing over illness can be played out.

The first was a neighbour whose father died and then mother got dementia.  He had two married older sisters but he was still at home in his early twenties.  The family, sisters, mother, everyone, put pressure on him to put his education on hold and stay at home to care for his mother.  She lived for nearly ten years, at the end bedridden and out of it.  He started developing strange habits, playing loud music in the middle of the night.  He was seem wandering around the yard dressed in full medical kit, gloves, mask, etc. (He was not a nurse).  Two months after his mother died, and before his 30th birthday, he left a note on the kitchen table, checked into a downtown hotel and killed himself with a drug overdose.  He had become so enmeshed with his mother's situation that he had obviously reached a point of severe depression.  Not only that, but all those years given to her illness and it didn't make a bit of difference. She would still have died from it no matter whether at home or in professional care.

The second was a woman whose husband had died and she too was diagnosed with early dementia.  She called her adult children together.  She told them she had lead a wonderful life, she had been loved by their father.  She didn't ask or expect that they look after her.  She had a short list of nursing homes and she did ask that they help her pick the right one.  She told them she knew she would get worse and they were not to worry or be sad.  Whatever would be, would be and she wanted them to go on living their lives fully.  The last I heard she is getting good care where she is, her family visits often and they are all at peace. 

Your father is the one who will choose how he is going to finish his life.  It's not your fault, you didn't cause it and your are not responsible for whatever happens.

[Liftedup]

Keep your life in Europe. America is on the verge of collapse economically and otherwise anyhow. Survival will probably be better there. What about bringing your Mom to visit where you are at? I've heard old and sick Ns get the worse. One of my best friends, her mother was an engulfing abusive N and lived to 85 years old. She put her mother in an assitive living home, but she still called her everyday and made demands. My friend was relieved when her mother died. Which sounds bad, but this woman was TOXIC to the extreme, and called her 5 times a day with endless demands even before the dementia kicked in. I think as I age in my case, the family is pulling away, I probably am going to be on my own and need to concentrate on making as many close friends as possible.

[nomom4me]

Hi sparkle pony, I love your name.  I'm so sorry your dad is ill.

I'm new here and don't have the most perspective on dealing with N's, or with aging parents but I have dealt with a whole lot of death and dying. 

My grandma was hospitalized for a few weeks before she passed, she stayed in her own house until those last weeks and I am glad I can remember her as strong and capable, I think that is what she would have wanted.  My cousins were all very disturbed seeing her bedbound, she was the kind of person who was always doing something.  One of my cousins missed her passing by a day and really seemed upset over it. Two good friends had to watch their dads slip away to debilitating illnesses, I'm glad my own father went fast.  It can be really difficult to watch someone go downhill, everyone grieves differently so it might be important for you so say goodbye but maybe that can be done on phone or videochat? 

It is very depressing in the states, in our own hometowns we see the changes gradually but it was really shocking to go back to the town where I spent my childhood summers and see all the empty storefronts.  Roads torn up that the city can't afford to fix.  When these things happen we don't think about the cost, I put 2k on credit to fly me and my niece to the funeral.  Totally stressed myself out and took more time off than I needed to.  If I could do it again I would have still gone for the funeral but I would have only gone for two days, maybe one.  My mom put me in a really difficult situation and had me stay with her at my grandmas house.  I should not have given her the opportunity to make plans for me, I could have used facebook to arrange a stay with a cousin but I did not want to hurt my mothers feelings.

Be good to yourself, make your own plans.  Stay in a hotel if you can afford it or stay with a friend or relative.

[SparklePony]

Hi all -

Thanks for all of the replies 

I think the reason I feel strange about this situation is that he was most likely the reason why I wanted to move away so far. I moved out of state when I was 18, and then out of the country 5 years later. I had always dreamed about moving as far away as I cold. He's the reason why I dislike my home state/city so much. I'm almost scared that I'll actually start to enjoy where I was from, because I wont have to worry about his needs and tantrums following me around like a dark cloud.

I suppose another way to look at it is that if it weren't for having an N Dad, perhaps I wouldn't have gone on to have so many adventures abroad 

Imogene - good question - "This is trite advice, but what can you do other than give yourself permission to feel things that seem inappropriate under the circumstances?"

My feelings do seem inappropriate, and that's why I feel weird about it. I hate to say it - but I think what I'm most afraid of is how people will look at me when he passes. He has lot of friends and old work mates - and there I'll be at his funeral - his stone faced daughter with no tears in her eyes. The only two people not crying in the room will be his wife and daughter.  (By the way - you know Kim Jong Il and all the creepy footage of people crying at his funeral? That's totally how my Dad envisions his funeral....).


Regarding my Mom -

I think at first, it would be good. I get obscene amounts of vacation time for my job, and could visit her more often. She could visit me and actually enjoy herself (I could take her to Kew Gardens...and Paris! - all the things big N isn't physically capable of doing - or interested in).

Her living longer than him was always going to happen. But this situation is forcing me to think about it more. I think about her getting older - and don't know what to do. I worry about her being alone. My aunt (her sister) is on her own as well - and I feel like I've up and left country to make myself sane, yet never thought about how I would take care of them.

I'm sure it will be fine now, and I'll continue to live here and make them proud. But I worry about 10 years from now, or more.

Sometimes I envy families that are so close, and that never move more than 2 hours away from each other. Now that the big dark N cloud might actually be gone soon, I'll start to wonder why I'm so far away from my only 2 family members I care about.

I don't want to leave here, because I like it here. My mom likes to visit here - but she would have no interest in living here.

I hate guilt! 

Thanks again for all the replies.

For now, I'll focus on my upcoming trip to the US in April. Me and the boyfriend are going out to see my parents, and following it up with two weeks in the southwest (we'll need a break after seeing him!). Having my boyfriend with me takes a lot of the pressure off of seeing my Dad. It will be an interesting trip, I'm sure 

[Rosemary]

Just to say when my Nmum died i was thrilled  very glad she was gone out of my life for good .
noone else knew how i felt i kept it to myself  .
i visited her in the nursing home the day  she died  ,i knew she would die that day ,and when i walked out i felt a great relief .
also at the funeral ,i felt more sad for my dad ,not for myself ,as she was the one who caused all the trouble in the family for me .  what im saying is dont feel guilty for feeling nothing , as its only  the nothing they have given you all these years .    

[CZBZ]

This is a tough situation, SparklePony. Having a narcissistic pareNt makes old age so difficult for adult children, doesn't it? There's a notable difference between aging parents who recognize their impact on their kids AND aging narcissistic parent(s) who still expect the kids to parent them. Then of course, there's illness and Alzheimers and other medical problems that enter into the picture. With nursing homes costing as much money as they do today, taking care of aging parents is becoming a common problem. My friends and I talk about this frequently---"What are YOU gonna do?" we ask each other...kinda like outsourcing our guilt.

My mother cries whenever she talks about my great-grandmother who was such a dear woman to take care of, no one regretted the time they spent meeting her needs. Every time her daughter (my grandmother) made oatmeal or soup or cornbread or even a cup of tea, gr-grandmother was so appreciative and grateful. Her expressions of gratitude said to her daughters, "I see you and I appreciate you." They LOVED taking care of her---even considered it a privilege.

Now with narcissists, it's not very enjoyable taking care of them. No gratitude, just attitude. All the kids feel guilty because they're constantly blamed for being inadequate. I have stopped making judgments about what anyone chooses to do with an old-age or ill narcissistic parent. Since I am a pretty ordinary/normal woman, I think you can quit worrying about public perceptions. People are more aware than we used to be...it used to be that if you didn't take care of your parents, you were a pig that deserved roasting. Not today though. We live too far apart, we have to work to earn a living (unemployed women aren't 'free' to caretake adult parents), we aren't as 'communal' as we once were.

In your situation, it's completely appropriate to continue working where you are and 'call' your father on the phone. You might step up the frequency of your calls to your mother (if you can afford it) or use the computer. Does she email? For myself, just talking with my emphatic daughter is enough to keep me going when life is stressful. 

It sounds like your mother is able to take care of your father so no need to feel guilty about letting her do that. Consider how your presence might even make the situation more difficult for her, ya know? With narcissists, triangulation is served with breakfast. 


CZ
 

[nomom4me]

Hi all -

My feelings do seem inappropriate, and that's why I feel weird about it. I hate to say it - but I think what I'm most afraid of is how people will look at me when he passes. He has lot of friends and old work mates - and there I'll be at his funeral - his stone faced daughter with no tears in her eyes. The only two people not crying in the room will be his wife and daughter.  (By the way - you know Kim Jong Il and all the creepy footage of people crying at his funeral? That's totally how my Dad envisions his funeral....).

Hi Sparkle, I would not worry about your dads work mates looking down on you.  Most people are just thinking about themselves.  I had the same fear going to my grandma's funeral - that everyone would notice that I don't stick by my mothers side. 

You left and found a better situation, you got out of the bad economy and you have a job with good benefits.  Anyone who values their work will respect that.  I thought my moms brothers would be asking me why I don't see my mom more, but they actually asked me what her problem is with me. 

There is nothing wrong with looking composed, everyone grieves differently and it's totally normal not to cry in public. I'm so used to having my armor up around my family that I planned the trip like I would an important work interview or meeting. 

Escaping to the southwest sounds good, enjoy that!